44 mag and Unique

[1895m]

Would like to know some thoughts on 44 mag and Unique powder.   I have a SRH  with 7.5 in bbl.  Been shooting 240 and 300 grain XTP's for a while now with H-110.  Looking to get a nice 1150 - 1250 FPS load Using Cast Perf. 255 gr. WFN PB and 300 Grain WFN GC.  I thought that Unique would be a good powder for that.  Anyone have any data they would like to share?  Going to use it for Whitetail in Michigan. Thanks.

[swampthing]

1250 might be a little stretch, but if you start around 8g and work up, 1150fps should come with no strain.
Hornady manual lists 10.7g as a max for the 240g xtp bullet.
 

[Gregory]

I'd be looking at 2400 for loads at that MV.  Good accuracy too!

[redhawk500]

Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook suggests 22.2 grains 2400 with 255 gr Linotype 429244 for 1165 fps (4" universal receiver) and 15.7 grains 2400 with 300 gr Linotype 429650 for 1001 fps, both maximum loads with CCI 300 primers.  I like WLP primers, but expect to use reduced powder charges.  I've found my revolvers get somewhat higher velocities than Lyman's with typical 5 1/2" or longer barrels.  Since you mentioned Unique, I expected you wanted a reduced powder charge while still getting acceptable velocity.  If you want more velocity in your gun than these results, try H110 or 296, again according to Lyman's results.

[S.B.]

redhawk500, a universal receiver is quite different from a revolver? I get a chronographed 1350 with 21 gr. of 2400 in my 6&1/2" 629 Classic S&W?

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

I agree with others, Unique is great for 1000 fps or under. 2400 or others are better above that. I like 7.5 - 8.5 grains of Unique and a 240 grain bullet for a very mild plinking load. If I want faster I use 2400.

[S.B.]

Prof. Fuller Bullspit, that's quite a username you've choosen?

[oso45-70]

1895M

I have had good luck with the unique 8 1/2 grain load. I would think if you wanted to go hotter you might try
H110 or 296. It depends on what you want to do.........Joe...........

[Prof. Fuller Bullspit]

Prof. Fuller Bullspit, that's quite a username you've choosen?

It's my SASS alias more than a state of mind!

[Lone Star]

Try BlueDot instead of H110/W296 or Unique.  Due to filling the case well and being less sensitive to crimp pressure it can give excellent accuracy in revolvers. It also has slightly less recoil than the slower ball powders.   Lyman lists velocities up to 1160 fps with 255s with a 4" barrel - you should do somewhat better with 7.5".


.

[redhawk500]

redhawk500, a universal receiver is quite different from a revolver? I get a chronographed 1350 with 21 gr. of 2400 in my 6&1/2" 629 Classic S&W?

I think the universal receivers give a more consistent result than random test guns, plus pressure data.  After you chronograph the universal receiver load in your gun, you have a useable yardstick for your situation, expect the same burn rate powders to give similar results and you won't be far off.  Your 629 seems to be right in line with what I'd expect in my 6 inch gun.  Don't exceed the load data velocities, making a reasonable adjustment for barrel length, some 25 to 35 fps per inch and adjust up or down one fps per degree F from standard temperture, 59 F, no matter what the max load says.  All this is ball park, no safe pressure signs are available for revolvers, just way over signs like tight extraction and primer changes.  Trust the pressure test data from SAMMI spec barrels.  Lots of too heavy loads are out there, without pressure signs evident.  With the newer 2400 data and reduced .44 Magnum pressures, use the new book data, it just isn't worth it to overload a S&W .44 Magnum when much heavier loads are out there for Ruger Blackhawk or Redhawk .45 Colts, .480 Ruger in Super Redhawks and so on.  My favorite 10.0 grains of Unique has been elevated to everyday load for my .44 N frame revolvers.  I have faith is this load taking anything on four legs in the Mid-South, and most other places too, come to that.   I love my .500 Linebaugh, a Redhawk Bowen five shot conversion, but I don't use max loads every day, usually Lil'Gun loads from Hodgdon's data; mostly 410grain or 420 grain bullets at 800 fps, still using 10 grains of Unique.

[S.B.]

universal receivers isn't an actual , it's a receiver with the pressure set up attached and different barrels(calibers) are attached as needed to check pressure? Something like a sled gun, in my thoughts, anyway?

[Graybeard]

Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook suggests 22.2 grains 2400 with 255 gr Linotype 429244 for 1165 fps (4" universal receiver) and 15.7 grains 2400 with 300 gr Linotype 429650 for 1001 fps, both maximum loads with CCI 300 primers.  I like WLP primers, but expect to use reduced powder charges.  I've found my revolvers get somewhat higher velocities than Lyman's with typical 5 1/2" or longer barrels.  Since you mentioned Unique, I expected you wanted a reduced powder charge while still getting acceptable velocity.  If you want more velocity in your gun than these results, try H110 or 296, again according to Lyman's results.

How old is that manual? I don't think anyone is recommending that much 2400 anymore. It used to be the max but I think most everyone these days has reduced that to 21.0 grains for a max due partly to changes in the powder and partly to better pressure testing equipment used to test loads. Today's 2400 is not the same as the 2400 of the early days of my reloading career.

[S.B.]

Graybeard, not to just in this without your question being addressed at me,  but, It would have to be in the neighborhood of 30 years old or older?

[Graybeard]

Personally I'd be VERY leery of ANY 30 year old data. It's generally just not valid today for many reasons. Back in those days they didn't have very much pressure testing equipment and what they had wasn't the best. Too often they relied on guess work rather than measuring and now with good measuring equipment available they have realized that many of the old loads like that one are WAY over safe pressure levels.

Also many powders have changed a bit in their burn rates and what was once safe for them no longer is. Again 2400 is one of those.

And another concern is that many cartridges have had their SAAMI pressure levels lowered, some quite drastically since those days. Not all guns so chambered these days can take the pressure levels generated back in that day and age. The .357 Magnum comes to mind.

The .357 Mag back when I began shooting and loading it was loaded to 1550 fps with 158 grain bullets. Today I think even the 125s are only rated at about 1250-1300 fps. They made a serious change in the operating pressures of them and that's why the S&W J-frame guns can now be chambered to it.

I'm not sure what guns might now be chambered to the .44 mag that might not be able to take the older pressure levels but the Taurus Trackers come to mind as likely candidates. It too has been watered down as much as the .357 Mag to the point where now it's considered a bit of a weak sister and really compared to what it once was it is. I personally still load mine to the state velocity I used to but I use only strong guns that were made to take the loads of old.

[S.B.]

I agree with the part about powders changing but, disagree with the part about companies relying on guess work? Their were lawyers back then, also!

[Graybeard]

Yup there sure were but the lawyers weren't in charge back then. You call it what you will but I call it guess work. They used the old case head measuring trick, looked at primers and tried to tell when bolt lift got sticky. I call that guessing and that's how most all the old Lyman manual data was developed. For that matter so was a lot of the others when their first manuals came to be.

Then they began to use the copper crusher method which isn't bad, not great but not bad. One heck of a lot better than what went before for sure.

[S.B.]

Graybeard, The copper crusher method is where I came into the game, 1960s.

[Lone Star]

Speer didn't use pressure measuring equipment for most of their load data until the early-mid 1970s.    They used to "brag" that using sticky bolt lift and case head expansion to determine maximum loads was somehow "better" than using pressure equipment - because those were the methods that their customers used!  Today many manuals no longer rely on a universal receiver with copper crushers, but instead on piezometric sensors to obtain a time-versus-pressure curve.  This is helpful in analyzing how a load preforms and can be very eye-opening....maximum pressure may be the same but when the peak occurs and for how long matters too.


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[RKrodle]

Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook suggests 22.2 grains 2400 with 255 gr Linotype 429244 for 1165 fps (4" universal receiver) and 15.7 grains 2400 with 300 gr Linotype 429650 for 1001 fps, both maximum loads with CCI 300 primers.  I like WLP primers, but expect to use reduced powder charges.  I've found my revolvers get somewhat higher velocities than Lyman's with typical 5 1/2" or longer barrels.  Since you mentioned Unique, I expected you wanted a reduced powder charge while still getting acceptable velocity.  If you want more velocity in your gun than these results, try H110 or 296, again according to Lyman's results.

How old is that manual? I don't think anyone is recommending that much 2400 anymore. It used to be the max but I think most everyone these days has reduced that to 21.0 grains for a max due partly to changes in the powder and partly to better pressure testing equipment used to test loads. Today's 2400 is not the same as the 2400 of the early days of my reloading career.

Graybeard, i checked that load and it is in theThird Edition of the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook. It was printed in 2004. Both loads are listed as Max loads.

Ricky

[S.B.]

Yup there sure were but the lawyers weren't in charge back then. You call it what you will but I call it guess work. They used the old case head measuring trick, looked at primers and tried to tell when bolt lift got sticky.

Hell, that what I still use!

[Graybeard]

I like the Lyman manual, really I do, Buuttttt it's NOT my go to manual for loads. I feel they have the best info section of all the manuals and they have data for cast bullets which most manuals don't. But they just do not update their manual with newly shot data. They are a real stick in the mud about that. They will NOT reshoot data already shot in the past and that is NOT good.

If the powder has changed over the years and 2400 has and if the SAAMI specs have changed ove the years and both the  .357 Mag and .44 mag have using their max loads is not a wise idea in my opinion. IF you can't find other manuals offering the same max using it is not a wise idea regardless of what manual you find it in.

Now chances are if you stick with really strong guns like most of the Rugers and the S&W 29 or the TC you won't get in trouble using that load. But I'd sure not want to pull the trigger on it too often with some of the newer lighter and less strong guns now chambered to .44 mag. I think that's a large part of the reason for the SAAMI change really. But I'm old enough to remember when you used to find a LOT of S&W 29s for sale in like new condition with a box of ammo with five or six empties or missing and the rest of the box there. Folks bought them, fired them one cylinder full and traded it back in as too much for them. That is the MAIN reason the change was made.

[Lone Star]

I agree with GB about the problem with not reshooting data over the years, but in fairness Lyman HAS  reshot some of its data.

For the .44 Magnum and 2400 powder:
Lyman 46 - page 398 - 240 Sierra HP - 21.6 gr 2400 - 1119 fps - 35,500 cup
Lyman 48 - page 353 - 240 Sierra HP - 20.5 gr 2400 - 1154 fps - 37,700 cup

The above clearly demonstrates the problem with not reshooting data as components change.   As for other .44 bullets, the .357 Magnum, etc. - the listed 2400 data is the same in both manuals.   


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[redhawk500]

Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook suggests 22.2 grains 2400 with 255 gr Linotype 429244 for 1165 fps (4" universal receiver) and 15.7 grains 2400 with 300 gr Linotype 429650 for 1001 fps, both maximum loads with CCI 300 primers.  I like WLP primers, but expect to use reduced powder charges.  I've found my revolvers get somewhat higher velocities than Lyman's with typical 5 1/2" or longer barrels.  Since you mentioned Unique, I expected you wanted a reduced powder charge while still getting acceptable velocity.  If you want more velocity in your gun than these results, try H110 or 296, again according to Lyman's results.

How old is that manual? I don't think anyone is recommending that much 2400 anymore. It used to be the max but I think most everyone these days has reduced that to 21.0 grains for a max due partly to changes in the powder and partly to better pressure testing equipment used to test loads. Today's 2400 is not the same as the 2400 of the early days of my reloading career.

I'll have to check the copyright date but the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook Third Edition is new enough to include the 500 S&W.  One source states it has been available since: Dec 20, 2004.
Most of the loads are lower than the Lyman Reloading Manual 47th edition, which is naturalyy older, but I always keep in mind the type of bullet, alloy, primer type and so on.  The CCI 300 primers give me lower velocities than Winchester Large Pistol primers and usually don't give me the velocities they quote.  As Robert Hienlein said, "There is no such thing as a free lunch!"

[S.B.]

I like the Lyman manual, really I do, Buuttttt it's NOT my go to manual for loads. I feel they have the best info section of all the manuals and they have data for cast bullets which most manuals don't. But they just do not update their manual with newly shot data.

Guess that's why I like it, I shoot mostly cast bullets.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats why they call them reloading guides not reloading bibles. There isnt a manual out there that recomends you start with there max loads they all know theres to much of a variation in gun tolarances. What is good in one is not good in ohters. Ill give you one example and thats my 646 smith which for those who dont know is a .40sw L frame revolver with a titanium cyl. Any load listed over then minimum load in any manual ive seen will cause you to have to drive cases out of that gun with a punch. My buddys gun will do a little better and take the middle road loads but still not the top loads in the reloading GUIDES. Both chamber pressures stated in manuals and the old school measuring methods need to be taken together when handloading. Just because you read it in a manual doesnt mean your safe with a load. Start with the lowest load listed for the combination you are looking at and work up slowly looking for pressure signs. I dont take much store in flattened primers in handguns but sticky extraction of any kind means you need to back off.

[redhawk500]

I have one final comment and excerpt from the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Handbook Third Edition.  The plain base, semi-wadcutter "Keith" style bullet, #429421 at some 245 grains Linotype lists the range of 2400 loads from 18.5 grains to 20.6 grains.  They state this is potentially the most accurate load for this bullet.  Why the heavier #429244 gas check 255 grain bullet load range is 18.2 grains to 22.2 grains of 2400, I have no idea.  I'd be more comfortable with the lower 20.6 grain load myself, even with the lighter bullet.  Even Skeeter Skelton backed off from Keith's favorite 22.0 grains of 2400 as a maximum load while he was still writing in the 70s, using only 21.0 grains of 2400.  I often wonder why Keith never listed any reduced loads for the .44 Magnum considering he developed gallery loads for all the other calibers he used, including the .44 Special and the .45 Colt, at least in the 1950s when he was still interested in them.

[S.B.]

You have to remember, what ever medium they use to test this load (either) may not of been used for the other  bullet? When ever anything changes, you have to start the process, all over.

[Lone Star]

Why the heavier #429244 gas check 255 grain bullet load range is 18.2 grains to 22.2 grains of 2400, I have no idea. 

I know exactly why the heavier bullet uses a heavier charge weight - it goes straight back to GB's comment and what I stated above. 

The Lyman #47 manual shows this max charge data:
#429421 245 gr - 23.4 grains 2400 - 1232 fps - 36,000 cup
#429244 255 gr - 22.2 grains 2400 - 1165 fps - 35,300 cup

The Lyman #48 manual shows this:
#429421 245 gr - 20.6 grains 2400 - 1248 fps - 37,200 cup
#429244 255 gr - 22.2 grains 2400 - 1165 fps - 35,300 cup

Clearly, Lyman did NOT re-shoot the data for the heavier bullet like they did with the lighter one.   Just as clearly, the data for the heavier bullet is now over maximum pressure.  Shame on Lyman for this.  Modern 2400 is hotter than it used to be.

.

[Redhawk1]

That is why I buy new manuals ever couple of years. The date is changing and a lot of new date is added. I just see it as another expense in having fun shooting.  My old books make good fire starters.