Does anyone hunt with 6.5x52 Carcano?

[kombi1976]

Just after New Year I picked up a '41 Carcano M38 carbine for $90.
Since then I've scored some ammo, a couple of clips and will be getting some dies soon from a friend.
Thankfully sporting ammo and brass are easily available as Privi Partizan (sold under the Highland label) is sold throughout Oz although the bullets loaded in the ammo are .264 not .268.
I am interested in those who've actually hunted with their Carcanos and what sort of loads they've found effective on game.
Here's a pic of my little Italian:



I think she looks quite cute.

[Mikey]

Kombi - I hunted with a pair of those years ago in Colorado.  Picked them both up, plus 100 rnd of ammo per rifle for $20 each from a local gun shop after an anti-war march - paranoia struck deep, then...

Anyhow, I hunted a lot with mine, mostly whitetail, blacktail, mule deer and a couple of Elk even.  Two brown bear as well.  Used the Hornaday 160 gn bullet at about 2250'/sec from a Lyman Manual load.  I also used a Norma loading, still with the Hornaday bullet but Norma powder - a bit faster and just as accurate but not worth the cost of the powder then. 

On big deer and one of the elk the bullet penetrated and was lost.  On one of the bear the bullets penetrated and were lost but recovered from another bear.  Under 100 yds the heavy 6.5mm bullet at slow speeds will wallop.  Beyond that on large or dangerous game it might not be the best choice.  It is an adequate meat getter though.  HTH.  Mikey.

[kombi1976]

I'm guessing you were using the .264" cal 160gn, right?
While these can be accurate out to about 200yds I think you're right about keeping the range short as they pack similar power to a 30-30 with that sort of load.
Lots more penetration as you said though.
Mine will be used much as you used yours.......goats and hogs out to about 100yds.
I do plan on getting some .268" cal bullets though which should hopefully make it more accurate.

[Mikey]

Kombi - Yes, the bullets I used were the Hornaday 160 RN.  I think they are .264".  They gave me excellent accuracy in my two M38s.  Those Carcanos may surprise you - the action is certainly strong enough for any load you want to put through it and not many of those rifles suffered from hard field use or being dropped a lot.  They were well made rifles.  Many didn't look so good because of the finish that was applied to some and some of the ammunition that was sold here in the US was poor quality milsurp that didn't enhance the accuracy capability of these rifles at all. 

All my loading manuals list the bore diameter at .264-.266.  I think a .268 diameter bullet is a tad too large and may toss your accuarcy, not to mention increasing your chamber pressures.  Bullets in .264 and .265 are available for reloading.  I would give them a shot first (lolol).  HTH.  Mikey.

[STexhunter]

I have a carbine and a rifle in 6.5 Carcano.  Due to the split bridge I did put side mount scopes on them.  I found that the 160 Hornady's are the best to reload with.  I use 4831 for my powder choice.  Haven't killed anything with one yet.  The long bullet is the only thing that will chamber somewhat consistently from the clip without some effort and then I have troulbe at times with them.  The 120 grain bullets seem to be to short to function well but, the accuracy is about the same as the 160 gr. bullet.   Considering the bores on my rifles I get 2 inch are better at 100 yards.  Not too good but probably good enough for 100 - 150 yards. Good luck with your rifle.

[kombi1976]

Looks like I'm getting me some 160gn bullets then.
At least I have a couple of clips.
Did you find them frustrating or helpful when hunting?

[Mikey]

Kombi - the clips are helpful and the rifle won't fucntion without them unless you go single shot.

STexhunter.  The 160 gn bullet is the military weight for the 6.5x52 Carcano cartridge and that might be why it feeds properly.  The rifling is actually a 'gain twist' that stabalizes the bullet well.  If you are getting 1-2" at 100 yds, that is pretty decent accuracy, period.  From my older Lyman manual the accuracy load for that bullet uses IMR4320 powder for 2247'/sec and those always hit where I aimed (eyes good back then).  HTH.  Mikey.

[STexhunter]

Mikey.  While I haven't done much reload development with this round.  I do get it out ever now and then and shoot it.  One problem I'm having in reloading is getting a shell holder that fits properly.  Sometimes the base pulls thru the holder resulting in a stuck case.  I've developed a stuck case remover by drilling out the primer pocket and threading it and using a bolt against a spacer and tightening it down until it pulls the case out, but it becomes frustrating after a while.  Anyway I get more 2 inch groups than less.  Once I even got a .75 three shot group that I thought about mounting it in a picture frame.  My loads are doing 2160 fps, slow but it gets there.  Been thinking about trying other combinations for fun.  Tried some Outers foam bore cleaner on it the other day and the old bore cleaned up pretty good considering the shape of the bore anyway.  Since this rifle is a carbine I've been thinking of using it for hog hunting in the heavy south Tex. brush.  I enjoy messing with old military rifles and seeing how they shoot.  At present I'm working on an old Mosin.  Ya'll have fun, thats the name of the game. 

[kombi1976]

Kombi - the clips are helpful and the rifle won't fucntion without them unless you go single shot.

Oh, I know it won't work as a reapter without the clips but I was just wondering if they complicated things or not.

STexhunter.  The 160 gn bullet is the military weight for the 6.5x52 Carcano cartridge and that might be why it feeds properly.  The rifling is actually a 'gain twist' that stabalizes the bullet well.  If you are getting 1-2" at 100 yds, that is pretty decent accuracy, period.

The rifling is "gain twist", Mikey, but only on the original rifles and the cavalry carbines of the same period.
The late '30s and 40s manufacture M38 style carbines have standard rifling.
Old cavalry carbines, not a 91/38, it may hardly stabilise the bullets at all.
I read in an article on Carcanos that they simply cut some length off the barrel and put a front sight when converting the original rifles to carbines.
This of course meant that the rifling did not gain enough twist in the length of bbl left.
But as you say, mate, 1-2" is quite decent and I might add, decent enough for a lot of mil surps in less common chamberings.
We just expect them all to shoot like bench rest rifles!
Incidentally, doesn't 6.5x52 use a #2 shell holder?
My cases certainly fit in it.
What sort of brass are you using, STexhunter?

[kombi1976]

Well, how things can change in a few hours.
I rang the gunsmith who was fixing the extractor problems the M38 has.
His news was not good.......the entire bolt has had it, not just the extractor.
As such I'm off to look for a decent but not horribly expensive replacement bolt for it.
That may not represent much of a problem in the USA but here in Oz I have my work cut out for me.
Just pray (and I mean that literally) one turns up for the right price.

[S.S.]

By some of the posts, some of you have certainly had better luck with Carcano's than I have.
With some original military ammo, which was the proper bore diameter, they would have had trouble hitting a large pizza (Italian Humor there) at 100 yards.. Probably the most inaccurate military
bolt action I have seen.. If you have good shooters, cherish them for they are rare.

[LouisV]

I took my first deer with one useing the 160 grn Norma loads. Only complaint I would have with it is the the clip falls out when empty, into the snow, mud or waist high grass. It was the first centerfire rifle I used as a kid. I'm glad I was able to start hunting with it rather then something that had alot of recoil. Thats why I still prefer 6.5 cartridges 30 years later. Louisv

[kombi1976]

Probably the most inaccurate military
bolt action I have seen..

If you amended that to "the most inaccurate military ammunition" you'd probably be right.
As things stand, like most rifles, if you feed them right the Carcanos will shoot quite well.

[charlesr]

I checked on the shell holder needed for this cartridge at Huntingtons.  They recommend an RCBS #9.  That's the same shell holder I use with my 6.5 x 54 Mannlicher Schoenauer.  It works well.  The head diameter on the Carcano is .003" smaller than the Mannlicher Schoenauer.  I had the same problem as you pulling cartridge heads off till I got my #9 shell holder.

[alsaqr]

Hunted with 6.5 Carcanos in the mid to late 1950s.    My brother and i got our soft point ammo from Philip  J. Medicus, who specialized in hard to get ammo.  The carbines did not shoot very well.  The long barreled rifles shot very well and a good one could make 1.5-2" groups at 100 yards.    We killed a lot of deer with our Carcanos.  Still have one that was built by Beretta, it has not been fired in over 30 years.   

[kombi1976]

An update on the bolt issues.
I managed to score another bolt.......$55 including postage from Australian New Zealand Arms in Melbourne.
It's from a '40 carbine so I'm fairly sure it will be the biz.
Also picked up another 3 clips from a gun shop in Canberra for $5 each thanks to a tip from a mate.
Now all I have to do is drop off some ammo and a clip to the gunsmith so he can check the rifle when he's adjusted the headspace on the replacement bolt.
Then it'll be time to play with loads........   
Meanwhile I'll have to be satisfied with my 303/25 for tonight's fox shoot. 

[kombi1976]

Well, more news.
I managed to get in contact with a small custom bullet maker not far from Sydney by the name of Tom Turton.
He makes a number bullets for different cals but most importanly is testing some .266" cal 130gn bullets specifically designed for the Carcano 6.5x52.
He doesn't own a Carcano himself so is sending me 20 for free to trial in my carbine.
If I'm happy with them he'll make up some more for the right price.
I'm really hoping they work.......because the Hornady .268" cal 162gn RNs cost AUD$60 per 100.
On top of that the new bolt has been fitted....without a hitch....and I'm having the bbl re-crowned on the advice of the gunsmith.
I suspected it would be necessary and he doesn't create extra work for himself so he isn't just telling so to make a buck.
Hopefully it'll be ready on Thursday.
Then the fun really begins...... 

[Brithunter]

Glad to hear it's coming together for you  and I look forward to the shooting report 

[kombi1976]

Thanks, mate.
I'll definitely be posting a thread on the load process.
Incidentally, what bore diameter does your Rigby Dutch Mannlicher 6.5x53R have?
And does it prefer longer bullets?

BTW, for those who've loaded in the past or presently reload 6.5x52 do you bother neck sizing or did you find that case life and accuracy is no different with FL sized cases?
And I will be picking up a RCBS #9 size shell holder.
Does Lee make one the same size?

[Brithunter]

Hi Kombi,

      On both of my Manlichers, Mdl 1892 and a 1903 Schoenauer the bore size in 0.256" and groove size 0.268"( I made a brass bore guage with 0.001" steps to check the bore size). I have shot bullet weights ranging from 120 Grn Speers Spitzers to the Hornady 160 Grn RN. The Mdl 1892 which was built by Rigby's of London has  Express sights with a very fine bead, I also tried some old commercial Kynoch ammo to test the regualtion of the sights then worked up a load with the 160 Grn Hornady to duplicate it and have shot it at 200 yards and it's on target. The spread of the shots is down to my poor use of iron express sights  not the rifle. With the 1903 it has a 4x scope so a lot of the error (me) is eliminated  and it shot well except for the case failures( chamber in the relined barrel was scrap). I then had a new barrel (original Steyr made one) fitted and have only shot it a couple of times since, but using some Speer 140 Grn bullets it was nice and accurate. Due to the stupid Police here I am now only allowed to have it for collection and not shoot it 

[kombi1976]

Due to the stupid Police here I am now only allowed to have it for collection and not shoot it 

Why is that?

[WILDCATT]

GUNS AND AMMO i believe had an article on Carcano.the bore is .268.hornady sells that size.the germans and italians made carcanoes in 8 mm mauser.the proof load is 73,000lbs.graf.com has new cases which are heat treated(neck&shoulder)$35 per 100.the mannlicher schoenauer is the same case as carcano but longer.i had ww2 military ammo and when one blew out at the base i stopped.now i have new brass and will load these.

[kombi1976]

More news.......
On tuesday afternoon I received a package from a friend in Canada.
Inside, along with some other cool stuff like calendars and a 45 ACP dummy round keyring, were 3 clips and some Lee 6.5x52 dies.
I was considerably chuffed as you can imagine.

Then yesterday when I got home from work a package had arrived from Tom Turton at Turton Bullets.
He sent a sample pack of the .267" cal 130gn SPs he is making.
They should be quite interesting to try out.
He also threw in a few examples of the 25 cal bullets he makes for 25-20 and 303/25.
In an amazing coincidence the highly accurate 25-20 75gn FPs I use that I thought were Taipans are actually made by him.

Additionally I rang Horsley Park Gun Shop this morning and they sending me a RCBS #9 on charlesr's advice.

Best of all, however, I rang my gunsmith in Canberra, Keith Hills, and the M38 has been re-crowned & is ready so I'll be picking it up this afternoon.
Ooooo!! Now I'm getting excited! 

[kombi1976]

YAAAYYY!! She's home from the smith!! 
Picked her up this afternoon.
I also picked up another box of Highland (Privi Partizan) factory loads.
They're loaded with .264" 140gn SBTs so they may well shoot MOFSP (Minute of Family Sized Pizza), to continue S.Sumner's Italian humour. 
But I'll be trying some of the 130gn Turton samples too.
Now I've just got to decide on the right powder.
My options really are BLC(2), H4895 or Varget due to the ridiculous powder importation situation at present.
Any tips on powder, primers, max loads, etc.?

[Brithunter]

Why is that?

     Hi Kombi,

            The answer is simple :-

        It's becuae the Police are complete Pratts who like to make rules up as they go along.

       Before I moved to this county things were fairly simple. it was up to me to decide which rifles I would shoot and when. Which rifle I would take out that particular day after deer or fox. But no once I moved a bunch of mindless moron decide that s not right and only they can say what I can use and where and when. So far they have wasted hundreds of Police man hours fiddling with my licence and rights and God only how many thousand of £'s doing so. With the net result that crime has been reduced by Zero percent. And no it seems that the licensing Officer will not speak to me on the phone  .

[billy_56081]

In my Lee modern reloading manual It gives a max of 30 grain of H4895 on 120 to 165 grain bullets. BLC2 is listed at 31 grains at 120, and 30 at 140 160 and 165.

Brithunter, come immigrate to America we need some good english speaking progun people to move here.

[kombi1976]

In my Lee modern reloading manual It gives a max of 30 grain of H4895 on 120 to 165 grain bullets. BLC2 is listed at 31 grains at 120, and 30 at 140 160 and 165.

The problem is I believe those maximums are for .264" cal bullets which makes them unsuitable for .267" cal bullets.
The looser fit of the .264" bullet means less pressure is needed to engrave them and it also allows for a certain about of "blow by" if pressures are a tad too high.
The .267" bullets on the other hand are a tight fit and while this often results in better accuracy it also means that higher pressues are involved with the same loads.
So now I'm trying to find loads that have been reduced for the .267" bullets.
Does anyone know what Hornady's load is for their .267" 160gn RN.

Brithunter, come immigrate to America we need some good english speaking progun people to move here.

He has a point, BH.
It's a pity you're stuck having to look after your folksin that spot .
No chance of the 3 of you moving to another county?

[billy_56081]

The book is showing .268 I guess I'd work up carefully.

[kombi1976]

The book is showing .268 I guess I'd work up carefully.

Thanks for that info then.
Alot of the loads for Carcanos are based on .264" cal and that's why I thought they may be a tad high.
But now I know where to start.
I'll make my maximum for both BLC(2) and H4895 30gn.
Dave Emary of Hornady also says those using extruded powders MUST use magnum primers to ensure proper ignition so I'll use them too.
Now I'm just waiting on HPGS to send mmy RCBS #9 shell holder. 

[prairiedog555]

I hope this is not in bad taste.  But I saw a show on History channel that recreated the Kennedy assasination.  They had a So. African professional hunter to evaluate if the shots from the Carcano were really possible in terms of time and accuracy.  He said something to the effect that the conspiracy therorists that say the Carcano is an ineffective weapon were false.  He thought it was a reasonabally accurate weapon and proceeded to fire it with very acceptable results, even with the same type of $5 scope as Oswald used.