Author Topic: 22M is a failure (Read 4887 times)

His lordship. · « **Reply #30 on:** February 12, 2007, 02:29:03 PM »

The .22 rimfire does work as a defensive round in a handgun. I have watched the footage of the John Hinkley assasination attempt on Ronald Reagan lots of times.

John Hinkley used a short barreled RG 14 .22 rimfire revolver, he bought bullets that were supposed to explode, none did. Everyone of the large adult men that got shot went down like they were hit by a Buick! One even flew backwards quite abit, another one was a DC cop. Brady was knocked down and out from a headshot, Reagan went down in his car, of course the secret service also pushed him down. But if Reagan had not gotten to the hospital he would have died from a bleeding lung hit.

It is obvious that a cheap .22 RF short barreled revolver is more than enough gun to knock down 4 big men, and keep em' down.

Serpico, the famous NYPD detective was shot in the face with a .22, he went down hard, received a disability from it too.

Sirhan Sirhan used a .22 RF to shoot Senator Kennedy, he went down permanently. I am sure there are other cases too. I also saw a footage segment of a police office who took a solid hit to the chest with a .45 ACP cartridge, and it did not faze him. I would not want to be shot by any gun.

Casull · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2007, 04:02:18 PM »

Quote

The .22 rimfire does work as a defensive round in a handgun. I have watched the footage of the John Hinkley assasination attempt on Ronald Reagan lots of times.

John Hinkley used a short barreled RG 14 .22 rimfire revolver, he bought bullets that were supposed to explode, none did. Everyone of the large adult men that got shot went down like they were hit by a Buick! One even flew backwards quite abit, another one was a DC cop. Brady was knocked down and out from a headshot, Reagan went down in his car, of course the secret service also pushed him down. But if Reagan had not gotten to the hospital he would have died from a bleeding lung hit.

It is obvious that a cheap .22 RF short barreled revolver is more than enough gun to knock down 4 big men, and keep em' down.

Serpico, the famous NYPD detective was shot in the face with a .22, he went down hard, received a disability from it too.

Sirhan Sirhan used a .22 RF to shoot Senator Kennedy, he went down permanently.

Oh, come on now Chris. You must be making all of that up. Because, everyone knows that a .22 rimfire is worse than being empty handed if you ever come under attack. Now, repeat after me ... "I would rather be empty handed than have a .22 rimfire, I would rather be empty handed ........"

MS Hitman · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2007, 06:10:20 PM »

The only problem I see is none of the shooters that Chris D listed were "professionals". This probably explains why they didn't use a real professional caliber; settling instead on using a rinfire cartridge.

Ratltrap · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2007, 09:48:15 PM »

Quote from: Duane on February 12, 2007, 02:03:47 PM

Somebody correct me if im wrong but hasent the lowly .22 rimfire taken more lives per capita then any other caliber seems the national bullistics sites states that the .22 rimfire is the number one caliber used in a altercation with deadly force . I wouldnt underestimate the little pill myself .Sure wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one that little bullet just bouncing around taking all kind of important inards ? Its alittle different shooting at paper than live animals I do it alot with a .22 magnum single six .The .22 magnum has a very high admiration by most hunters and will be around for a long time

Maybe not nationally, but overall I'd have to guess 7.62x39

Keith L · « **Reply #34 on:** February 12, 2007, 10:53:05 PM »

"22 rimfire is the number one caliber used in a altercation with deadly force "

Post your source.

Duane · « **Reply #35 on:** February 13, 2007, 01:10:36 AM »

Go to any web site with handgun related statics by caliber National registary on crime. search Most used handgun caliber in an crime where death occured they are a ton of sources on the web hence the name saturday night special .cheap easy available and will take a life .Not like a .357 but will end a life .Again I see you fail to reconize the lowly rimfire as a cartridge with little use except for rats and lizards .Like I said before their are some who shoot paper then their are those with experience in the field on game .Me I use a .22 rimfire every weekend in the marsh if not my .22 magnum cylinder .most used caliber in assinations .22 rimfire.Most bought caliber nation wide .22 rimfire .Caliber taken most game per capita 22 rimfire everybody has one . The .22 caliber rimfire has taken more game small and some not so small ( night shooting ) then any onther caliber besides the .30/.30 and the .3006 now i an not even remotely comparing them as they are in a whole different catagoery.But the most use caliber in the united states .22 rimfire Besides I thought it was proved a couple of paragraphs up with the examples of what or who it has been used on by Chris seems to me thats enough convincing for me it can be used with deadly force or maybe not to people with no in the field use .The Navy seals carry a customized version of thr Ruger MK suppressed for field work you can find that on the net too the Us in WW11 isued some soliders Hi Standard suppressed rimfire weapons for covert ops seems to me if the military still uses it its got my vote there is a difference in the bang but it still gets the job done maybe not as quik but same outcome ,Itialin soliders carry suppressed 10/22 for sniper work go figure ? Who is gonna argue with the military yea there are some who say yea a .40 or a .45 can do it better sure but in capable hands it can be done time and the military have proven that .Not paper target punching here a real threat

Keith L · « **Reply #36 on:** February 13, 2007, 03:15:20 AM »

Point me to some of those web sites.

Duane · « **Reply #37 on:** February 13, 2007, 06:13:58 AM »

uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh I thought I just did ? I remeber you now small world Hows it going keith still shootin at stationary targets ? How the handgun training going .Learn any New techniques .The problem with target shooting is it doesnt prepare people for real situations . running and gunning paper it think is aint it . i see you still like those big boomers you know a person should shoot what they feel comfortable with .Ive see alot of people who cant settle down long enough to shoot rimfire consistently or accurately if your ever in louisiana we can go shooting real animals I give you some pointers maybe .Alot different than paper .Nice talkin to ya agin .God Bless

Keith L · « **Reply #38 on:** February 13, 2007, 08:05:13 AM »

Thanks Duane. Just what I thought. You can't find any of those sites either.

I am done with this thread. I won't be posting to this one any more. It has gotten way to silly.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #39 on:** February 13, 2007, 10:57:47 AM »

Duane,

What part of LA are in in? My wife's family is around Lafayette; I graduated at USL as well.

Heck, I'd like to come down and shoot some varmints with the rimfires myself.

Duane · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2007, 03:01:34 PM »

Lafayette <Let me know when your ready ,we can post a lot of over sized game being taken with the lowly .22 rimfire I own the property I hunt on

coyotejoe · « **Reply #41 on:** February 14, 2007, 03:50:38 AM »

I guess I don't see it as a strike against the .22WMR that only a few auto pistols are made for it. How many are made in .17HMR? Revolvers are a snap, the cylinder can be bored .22LR or WMR for the same cost but an auto has to be designed and built for a magnum cartridge from the ground up. With Ruger's interchangable cylinder revolvers meeting most needs for a .22 mag handgun there really never was any great demand for an auto pistol. With that said, I really don't think it is a great design challenge to build a .22 mag auto. My old BRNO 611 will flawlessly handle every brand and bullet weight of ammo on the market. It's simple blow-back breech bolt weighs just 16 ounces. It would be no great engineering feat to build a 36 ounce handgun around that breech block or slide weight. For that matter, the slide of my AMT Automag II weighs only 8 ounces and the whole gun, all stainless steel, weighs only 33 ounces and it also functions fine with every load I can find. It does have the drilled chamber holes but I really don't believe they do much, and I believe I read that the new production guns by High Standard have smooth chambers.
There just really isn't any great demand for either the .17 or .22 mags. With all the hype at the introduction of the .17 HMR every manufacturer jumped on the bandwagon with a new gun for it, but all of those guns were also available in .22 WMR. I don't see either one fading away soon.

IMshooter · « **Reply #42 on:** February 14, 2007, 04:05:19 AM »

At the risk of being "tarred and feathered" I'm going to try to steer this conversation back to its orginal intent. I've always thought the .22 mag was an excellent choice for Hunter Pistol Metallic Silhouette. Those who use it in this game have T/C Contenders and the .22 mag produces match grade accuracy. I think it is even more accurate than T/C's .22 match barrels. I like using the .22 mag because not only is it very accurate, it has enough power to take down the rams at 100 meters. At our local club, only one fellow has ever shot a perfect standing score of 40 out of 40 - and he did it with a .22 mag.

Ratltrap · « **Reply #43 on:** February 14, 2007, 06:02:49 AM »

Quote from: coyotejoe on February 14, 2007, 03:50:38 AM

It does have the drilled chamber holes but I really don't believe they do much, and I believe I read that the new production guns by High Standard have smooth chambers.

CJ - I read Jeff Quinn's Gunblast review of the new production AMT and was surprised to see that the chamber holes had been eliminated. I had read from several sources that the delayed blowback was an importatnt feature. I wonder if High Standard hasn't made a mistake there. I know my original AMT will cycle just about everything as you say yours will, but Quinn writes "I like the high velocities posted by the two CCI loads, but they occasionally failed to fully cycle the slide, sometimes leaving an empty cartridge in the chamber or hung up in the ejection port. Likewise the same problems occurred with the Winchester Supreme 34 grain loads. This AMT prefers bullets of a full 40 grains and with high velocity. The 45 grain Dynapoint ammo, with its low velocity, sometimes also failed to fully cycle the slide on this AMT. The best performer, in both accuracy and reliability, was the PMC Predator ammunition. ...."

The AMT is a really fun gun to shoot and Quinn was also getting muzzle velocities 150-200 fps faster from the 6" AMT than from the 5" revolvers he tested it against and good accuracy to boot.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #44 on:** February 14, 2007, 08:09:46 AM »

I don't know what changes High Standard may have made to the AMT, my only info on that is the Jeff Quinn article as cited. I do recall that the first day shooting my Irwindale AMT I had one case which had to be punched out with a cleaning rod. It had raised bumps corresponding to the chamber holes, sort of like a book in Braille. I don't now recall the brand or load but that has never happened again, I assume that one case was either abnormally thin or soft. The loads I have chronographed from my AMT run:
CCI Maxi-mag 40grHp----average 1404 fps with an extreme spread of 94 fps
Federal 30grHP-----1678 fps---- ES--27 fps
Fed. Premium 30grHP--1728 fps--Es--86 fps
Fed. 50grHP---1226 fps---ES--30 fps
Remington premium 33gr V-max--1490 fps---ES--23 fps.
Winchester 40grHP--1485 fps--ES-I failed to record
I can't find any more Winchester rimfire ammo, someone said they are moving the plant and will resume production some day. My best groups ran 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 inches at 25 yards with the Remington V-max but I was pretty disappointed in the velocity, just a tad faster than the Winchester forty grain. I look forward to the Winchester Supreme 34gr HPs when I can get some and I will also test the CCI 30gr TNTs when I can find some of that. The only downside to living in the sticks is shopping for ammo and reloading components.

Ratltrap · « **Reply #45 on:** February 14, 2007, 09:40:56 PM »

Good to know I can still get parts from High Standard anyway. I hear 'ya on the ammo shopping problem. We have one shop here that stocks much 22 WMR and they usually only have 3-4 varieties on hand at any one time. Last I was in there though they had quite a few including some Win., but most were over $10/50. Tough to plink at those rates.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #46 on:** February 15, 2007, 07:42:51 PM »

Fellows, believe it or not, I just read this "whole" post for the first time.

I can personally give some input here that may, or may not sway some of your thinking on the 22 or 22 magnum as a defensive caliber. Before I say it all though, please keep in mind that I lived a very violent childhood(home life), in an enviroment that seemed to breed trouble. I left home at 13, but for what ever reason, it took several more years to finally leave it all behind me, and make up my mind to live a more productive/peacable life style.

With that said...

I had a sister that was about a year younger than me. She opted to stay with our Mom who was then about as wild as a woman can get, and our pyscotic(spelling) step father who got his kicks from beating us, throwing knives, beer bottles, bricks, etc., at us, and yes occasionally shooting his trusty 9MM at us for such offences as walking in front of the TV while he was watching a show.

My sister had just moved out at 17 when she accidently walked in on a drug deal at a "friends" house, and was shot, and killed by a 22LR revolver. She was hit in the aorta(spelling), and was DOA after the 10 minute drive to the hospital. A couple years before that, I was shot point blank in the lower right chest by a 25 ACP, which hit a rib, chipped it, and glanced right back off, and out leaving nothing more than a small flesh wound, and me in a very bad mood which proved to be not too good for the shooter.

Three years later(I was 20 this time) I was once again somewhere I had no business being, and was shot in my left thigh with a semi-auto something. I'm assuming it was a 380 HP(possibly 9MM) after seeing the bullet fragments the doctor dug out of my leg. The bullet hit me straight on in the center of my middle thigh, busted on the bone without breaking it, and pretty much left shards of bullet jacket, and lead in that area which nearly bled me to death. I still managed to not only drive home, but out of fear of possible legal complications waited a full two days before seeking medical help. The doctor said another few hours of steady bleeding like I was, and I would've died.

I've always questioned "why" could a lowly 22LR take my sister away so quickly, and easily, when a 25 Auto to the chest only made me mad, and even a direct hit from a larger caliber that did tremendous damage to my left thigh(arteries included) still gave me two days with zero medical attention?

I guess I said all that to make this point;
I'm of the mind that I'll use what ever(22LR included) to defend myself, but I'd never carry anything less than at least a good 32 magnum for that specific purpose. A 357 magnum would be the smallest/lightest caliber I'd trust 100%, and even then, if I was ever in that position again, a 44 magnum would feel like it wasn't enough.

With a "perfect" shot/situation, any gun might do wonders for you, but there's a "very" real chance anything less than a well placed shot from a large caliber just might end with you, or your loved ones on the raw end of the deal.

MS Hitman · « **Reply #47 on:** February 16, 2007, 01:18:50 AM »

What we need is more discussion like your's (from experience). The web is too full of people who do a little bit of reading or take one or two courses and all of a sudden are experts; making balnket statements which prove their lack of knowledge. A little bit of information is a dangerous thing, and we have a lot of dangerous folks around the web.

Keith L · « **Reply #48 on:** February 16, 2007, 05:17:10 AM »

Thank you Jerry for very elequently saying what I was trying to.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #49 on:** February 16, 2007, 05:26:57 AM »

Indeed, well said Jerry. I'm afraid I may have sparked all of this ".22 for defence business" with my comment that I saw no use for the small rimfire revolvers. I, of course meant, no "legitmit use". They are not accurate enough for hunting and for defense one could carry essentially the same revolver, same size, weight and price range in a much more effective caliber. That .22s have been popular with assassins was never in doubt. In fact, "a .22 in the brain pan" was almost the signature of a professional hit, but that doesn't recommend them for self defense.

IMshooter · « **Reply #50 on:** February 16, 2007, 10:26:21 AM »

Does anyone remember the Grendel model P-30? It was a semi-auto pistol chambered in .22 mag. with a 30 shot magazine. My brother has one of these, and it is an interesting piece. Ugly as sin, terrible trigger pull, so-so accuracy, and goes "bang" everytime. It may not be the ideal self defence gun, but sure is fun to shoot.

Guy Pike · « **Reply #51 on:** February 17, 2007, 06:44:06 PM »

Twice in Eastern Europe I have seen the goblins retreat at the sight of a pistol being drawn. Granted it was the CZ52 in 7.62 Tokarev, but in either case the weapon truly hadn't "cleared leather" before they were scrambling to exit the situation. I personally would like a heavey caliber semi-auto for personal carry, but there are times when the mere prescence of a firearm dicourages the bad guys. As military police we were encouraged and trained to recognize the development of a bad situation and took extra measures not to put ourselves in a bad spot. Especially in former Iron Curtain countries. I think the 22mag and the 17hmr each have a spot. Much like the centerfire cartridges{of which there are countless calibers and casings} it appears thar rimfires are evolving and changing as well, just later in the overall picture!

coyotejoe · « **Reply #52 on:** February 18, 2007, 02:20:51 PM »

No Doubt, it is like the NRA says, often the mere presence of a firearm may prevent an act of violence. I've experienced that one time myself. Thirty some years ago I was backpacking with my wife of that time. She was a very well endowed little lady and the pack straps accentuated her endowments. We approached a jeep trail just as a 4x4 pickup topped over a rise. The truck slid to a halt, all three occupants staring at my wife. The passenger door opened and a young man was in the act of stepping out with a mumbled swear word or two. I pivoted slightly to give them a good view of the rifle hanging from my pack frame and the fellow froze with one foot still in the air. He pulled back, plastered a smile on his face and began to chat about the condition of the road.
I'm pretty sure that is not why they stopped, but that rifle sure made for friendly conversation.

SingleFan · « **Reply #53 on:** February 27, 2007, 09:47:05 AM »

Wheeew. Boy Chris I'm glad you toned that one down. Made for an interesting read though. My quick 2 cents:

22 mag ain't going nowhere...too many loyalists. I for one still haven't purchased a 17hmr. Now my M2 is a dandy squirrel gun. Only reason I'm not interested in the hmr is my single six takes 22 mags and some times I like my rifle to have company on fox hunts, which the 22 mag works quite nicely for.

Hey I read that piece by paco a while back. Believe it was on gunblast in a review about the AMT 22 mag. Is that the one where he shot the guy in the knee cap? Ended that altercation right quick.

You know I used to work in an office right next to the president of NAA. He brought up an interesting point...his thinking is that most CW holders don't carry their piece all of the time because of concealment issues, weight, convenience, but in the smaller pieces, they are more likely to carry it ALL the time. Don't know if this is true. I've never been in a fire fight, but I bet if I were, I'd be wishing I had a potent caliber. Nonetheless, the 22 mag would sure 'smarts', and I hate when I get shot in the head with one, it ruins my whole day.

dpastordan · « **Reply #54 on:** February 27, 2007, 02:02:41 PM »

The .22 Mag fills an interesting niche. I am told that poachers love it because it seems to have more ooomph than a standard .22 long rifle and still be relatively quiet. It seems to be the perfect round for a combination gun like the old Savage 24 which sold a bunch of 'em. I owned one for a few years ... good squirrel and close range varmint gun. I love the Ruger Single Six and wish I still had mine. My grandfather used a bolt action .22 Magnum a lot. He found it better at hog killing time. Also took good care of foxes, racoons, and possums. The .17's are interesting but not enough for me to invest in one. I believe it is premature to announce the death of the .22 Magnum.

As far as self-defense...well there are better. Most self-defense situations occur unplanned and one has to use what one has. If I carried a self-defense weapon it would be a .38 or larger.

lucky guy · « **Reply #55 on:** February 27, 2007, 02:26:02 PM »

It would be interesting to know if there was more HMR or WMR ammo sold. Anybody have numbers?

I think the HMR spurred some new rounds for the 22 mag with better trajectory and accuracy too. Anybody shot them alot and for long enough to compare the accuracy of older 22 mag rounds with some of the newer ones?

coyotejoe · « **Reply #56 on:** February 28, 2007, 03:55:22 AM »

The gun rags have a lot to do with what sells, promoting the products of their advertisers is the real business of gun writers. When the .17 HMR was first revealed the magazines fell all over each other in trying to heap the praise higher. It was very different back in the '50s when the .22 WMR was introduced. Writers expounded on its' high cost, which was more of a concern in the '50s than it is today. They knocked its' accuracy as being greatly inferior to the good old long rifle, often staging tests to make their point. They'd compare groups from a light weight, inexpensive Mossburg or Savage rifle in .22 WMR against their pet Winchester 52 or Remington match rifle with match grade long rifle ammo to make the point that the new magnum could never compete with the .22LR. There were few rifles and only the Ruger revolver made in .22 WMR for many years. The only ammo produced for many years was the Winchester and CCI 40 grain and the early plated CCIs often failed to expand from handguns or longer shots with rifles. The .22 WMR got off to a very slow start compared to the .17 HMR for which guns were being sold before the ammo became available.
I don't agree that the .17 inspired improvements in the .22 mag. I believe the slowly growing assortment of .22 mag guns and loads preceded the introduction of the .17 HMR. Most of the new .17 HMR guns were already available in .22 mag.

lucky guy · « **Reply #57 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:29:35 AM »

Joe,

I was thinking about the light, higher velocity rounds like the Remington 33 and Federal 30's that have "vmax" like bullets. I'm not sure but I don't think those were around before the 17 came on the scene were they?

35Rem · « **Reply #58 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:44:19 AM »

I know the Winchester Supreme 34 gr was (pre 17 hmr) because the the 17 came out, i sure didn't see why, when the lighter (which was 2x the weight of the 17) 22 mag bullets were out. The Win Sup stuff was really accurate, too. Still don't need a 17, my mag does just fine.

DakotaElkSlayer · « **Reply #59 on:** February 28, 2007, 04:53:21 PM »

To address the original question... The 22WMR is here to stay...period. The 17HMR is here to stay...period. Work at a gunshop and the .17HMR is kinda' like the .204Ruger; never hear complaints about accuracy. Don't know if it is a "balanced" cartridge, or the manufacturers' making better guns for 'em. I am not too sure about the MachII. Never really got that popular and I see a lot of new guns chambered for it on the clearance rack.
As for the off-topic self-defense caliber...those are the best discussions, ever! There always are the guys with the mighty "one shot stop" .45 ACP... Kinda' makes you wonder why people with such high confidence in a round always seem to favor pistols with high capacity magazines?

When I was in Hawaii for the Pro Bowl, the first officer to get shot and killed happened...Ruger MkII did him in. Remember, like a previous poster stated, the average distance of the confrontation is 7ft. Most people I see at the range with a .45ACP would only get off one shot at someone coming at them from that distance. Just about everyone I see at the range with the lowly .22lr, can empty the gun in the same amount of time. The big difference is, the guy with the .22lr, will be emptying the gun at the bad guy's head, not center of mass. ....think about that.

Jim