22M is a failure

[Zen900]

There is much bashing of the 17Mach2 and 17HMR on the internet as being discontinued or failed but if you look at the situation honestly there is more evidence that the 22M has failed. Ruger discontinued their 10/22 Magnum rifle and few companies produce a 22M semiauto pistol. Modern 22LR rounds have made the 22M unnecessary and the 17HMR is far superior to the 22M. I rarely ever see a 22M at a range anymore while the 17 is a common sight drawing lots of attention. While everyone was predicting demise of the 17s the 22M slipped into anonymity and is now part of the past.

[Keith L]

I don"t agree.  While the 17s may be getting more attention at the range there will always be a place for the harder hitting 22mag in the field. It is ideal for the under 100 yard shot at game that takes a little more than a 22lr, is less affected by wind, and is cheaper than the smaller counterparts.  I enjoy the 22 mag, and have three of them.  I also have three 17HMRs and one Mach 2, so I guess I see a use for all of them. 

[44 Man]

Well said.  The Mach 2 for squirells, the .17 HMR for feral cats, the .22 for bunnies, and the .22 Mag for possums and crows and such.  44 Man

[Zen900]

You guys are not helping out my theory at all.

[Graybeard]

When the flash in the pan .17s are long dead and forgotten the .22 mag will still be going strong. It will be celebrating it's 50th birthday in two years. If we're still owning guns and shooting when the time comes I'll bet it will be around for it's 100th.

[Keith L]

When the rimfire .17s came out we sat through endless .17 vs .22 threads.  All I can say is it would be real boring if I could only have one gun.  The good news is that I don't have to choose, and the ones I like I can have a few of if it makes me happy. 

[corbanzo]

You cant call the .22mag a failure because of the .17hmr.  Sure there has been lots of hype over the round, cause its faster and all of that.  The thing is that the .17HMR was developed as a varmit round.  The .22 mag carries a larger bullet at slower velocity, which means it is going to put the animal down, and with less damage.  That is great for a hunting purpose.  Just because one gets more marketing doesnt mean the other is dying.  It just means that the other doesnt need the marketing, because it already has its place in the shooting world. 

[sherpa]

self defence. fun. just because.......

[Keith L]

self defence. fun. just because.......

There is a word for anyone who counts on a rimfire for self defense:  dead.  While a killing shot is possible, more likely the person you are trying to fend off will keep coming and kill you prior to your shot doing much good.  Law enforcement has nearly completely moved from the 9MM to 40 S&W or 45ACP in the interest of keepint their officers alive.  the 9MM has lots more energy than an rimfire.  If you are planning to carry then get something that will get the job done.

[MS Hitman]

While not my first choice for self-defense; it is my opinion a rimfire beats a cell phone any day of the week.  As far as energy values go; through those out 'cause they don't count for much in handguns.

[Keith L]

I don't know.  We may just have to disagree.  I think you may be better off with nothing than with a gun that is most likely to fail.  I will take my 45ACP any day.  With the training I have had and the practice I do I know it will work if I need it.  That rimfire wheel gun just gives folks a false sense of security and will get them in trouble.  Especially if they haven't been trained, and I know of no responsible trainers who would tell anyone that a .22 mag is powerful enough.   It just doesn't do enough damage soon enough.  The person you shoot with it, unless it is a perfect shot,  may bleed to death.  But he has most likely already killed you before he does.

[MS Hitman]

Well, we're just going to have disagree on this one.  However, are we talking about trying to shoot someone from across a street or a room or what? If the distance becomes too great, one may just consider you wanted to shoot the perp.

Yes, I'd take a .45ACP over a rimfire any day of the week.  I'd even take a .357 Mag as well.  Key to avoiding trouble is to stay away from it.  However, in most cases, an attacker is not in it to get hurt, regardless of caliber and they tend to break off once they find the "victim" has any sort of firearm and is willing to use it. 

[Keith L]

Most attacks take place at less than 7 yards.  Response time has to be so fast at that range that an attacker is unlikely to even know that his target is armed, so threat value is limited.  If you are lucky you will get to double tap, and unless that causes massive damage to the attacker you are in the deep stuff. 

[Casull]

I'm with Hitman on this one.  I'll take a fist full of .22 magnum over a fist full of nothing any day of the week.  Most attackers are oportunistic and cowardly.  I have never believed in that old line of BS about being better off without a gun, regardless of the theory (not enough gun, attacker will take it away from you, etc.).  Most of that is either anti-gun rhetoric or macho "anything smaller than a howitzer is not enough" crap.  Of course I would prefer my .45 acp or better yet, a 12 gauge pump, but a .22 mag in the right hands will get the job done.

[Keith L]

So, you guys have a carry gun for the times you are going to be in need of one, and another you take if you don't think you will?  If you are going to carry then you would have to be major league stupid to cary any less than one that will get the job done.  If its cost that keeps you in a rimfire, how much is your life worth?  If a rimfire is all you can handle then you are in trouble anyway.  Get a carry weapon that will stand a good chance to keep you alive.  If a .22 mag can get the job done why isn't it used by ANY professional agency that depends on firearms to keep them alive?  Carry a peashooter if you want.  If you are lucky you will never have to use it.

[Casull]

So, you guys have a carry gun for the times you are going to be in need of one, and another you take if you don't think you will?  If you are going to carry then you would have to be major league stupid to cary any less than one that will get the job done.  If its cost that keeps you in a rimfire, how much is your life worth?  If a rimfire is all you can handle then you are in trouble anyway.  Get a carry weapon that will stand a good chance to keep you alive.  If a .22 mag can get the job done why isn't it used by ANY professional agency that depends on firearms to keep them alive?  Carry a peashooter if you want.  If you are lucky you will never have to use it.

Could you possibly be anymore condescending?  Let's see, you have listed what, 1, 2, 3 ah 4 insults.  So, your brilliant advice is either carry a .45 or don't carry anything.  I think that bit of stellar advice is "major league stupid". 

If a .22 mag can get the job done why isn't it used by ANY professional agency that depends on firearms to keep them alive?

Probably because they are lousy marksmen.  Ever notice how many times a suspect ("criminal") is shot at before going down or being subdued. 

Again, no one is going to argue that a .22 mag is the best choice, but you have to be an airhead to say that its worse than nothing.

[MS Hitman]

I'm with Casull on this on as well.  Keith L, when you get through taking your ego pills; go back and reread my original post which was in response to your original assinine remark.  I never said I carry a rinfire for defense. I just said it beats a fistful of nothing by a long shot.  I'm going to use whatever I have at hand if needed; be that my carry revolver, which stars with a .4 (oh, that's probably no good as "Professionals" don't carry revovlers anymore) to a .38 Special loaded with lead roundnoses to a 12 gauge loaded with buckshot to a rimfire; if that's what I have in my hand at the time.  In fact, why don't you just give up that pipsqueak .45 ACP you're flaunting and move on up to a .500 Linebaugh; which I carry as a defense weapon at times.

Be easy with that high-horse you got there.  Sometimes it's a long way down when you fall.

[Keith L]

My advise is carry something that will work.   Simple as that.  No matter how you try and justify it a .22 Mag isn't enough. 

I am not trying to convince you two.  You have all the answers, and appparently are expert marksmen.  I just hope no one reading your posts will take the same position and wind up dead.  Most of the rest of us are just average in our skills.

[coyotejoe]

So how did this discussion of .17HMR and .22WMR degenerate into an argument about "carry guns"? I believe there is a separate forum for that.  I wouldn't think much of my AMT .22 mag as a defensive weapon but love it as a trail gun for bunnies and grouse and such.  Now if I should be attacked while carrying the AMT I'd not throw it down and run away because I know I can rattle off 10 rounds in a couple of seconds and keep them all on a playing card at 30 feet, so as others have said it is better than nothing. I don't see any use for the little snubby revolvers in any rimfire caliber, I don't know what they are good for, nothing I can think of, but in a light semi-auto with 6" barrel I can "defend" myself from from ground squirrel attacks all day long!

[Keith L]

Thanks for getting this back on track.

For the record I have four .22Mags. two of them pistols.  I like them all in the spirit for which they were created.  I hope to have all four until the time they go to my sons.  .22 Mag is not a failure.

[Chris]

OK guys...you've "whipped the hair off of this dog" long enough.  Rimfire rounds are fun to shoot...and this forum is supposed to civil and pleasant place to discuss this sport.  The verbal punching is over.     10/4??? 

Thanks for your cooperation!  ...Chris

[Ratltrap]

self defence. fun. just because.......

There is a word for anyone who counts on a rimfire for self defense:  dead. 

Keith -  Before you leave that for the record you should read Paco Kelly's account of actually using the 22 mag. as a LEO

FWIW the 22 WMR is the only smallframe handgun round that will penetrate class II body armor.

[His lordship.]

I used to collect cartridges and there have been many of them that became obsolete.  I don't see the .22 magnum at the range as much either, more of the .17 HMR's these days. 

What will most likely happen is all the guys who have used the .22 magnum over the years will keep on using them until the .22 mag. ammo gets harder and harder to find.  Then the fellows will die from old age, the rifles will be rebarreled by the next owner, and the younger people will keep with the .17 HMRs, or even the next new high tech cartridge.

Then another cartridge collector like me will add the .22 magnum to the others like the Jap 8MM nambu, the .44 pinfire, the .43 Spanish, etc.

[Ratltrap]

I used to collect cartridges and there have been many of them that became obsolete.  I don't see the .22 magnum at the range as much either, more of the .17 HMR's these days. 

Send me postage and I'll send you a truckload of 22 WMR brass from the local range for your collection.

The 17 HMR is an interesting rifle cartridge but 22 WMR has a big advantage in a handgun. If you want a long range high volume cartridge, unlike 17s, there are plenty of 22 centerfires out there.

[Zen900]

[quote Ratltrap

If you want a long range high volume cartridge, unlike 17s, there are plenty of 22 centerfires out there.
[/quote]

Centerfires? This is a rimfire discussion.

[Zen900]

[http://www.gunblast.com/AMT-AutoMagII.htmurl][/url


This is a link to the only 22mag pistol I could find. There must be a reason why there are so few made.

[Ratltrap]

This is a link to the only 22mag pistol I could find. There must be a reason why there are so few made.

There have been a couple of other 22 WMR auto pistols, one by Grendel comes to mind. But as I understand it the reason that more haven't been produced is that operating pressure is too high for standard blowback actions - hence no Ruger 1022 magnum.

AMT got around that by making indentations in the chamber that hold the expanded brass long enough to regulate pressure and allow for blowback operation. I have an Automag II and it is very fun to shoot and quite accurate with the right ammo. High Standard bought the rights to AMT and still makes the Automag II.

[Keith L]

"But as I understand it the reason that more haven't been produced is that operating pressure is too high for standard blowback actions - hence no Ruger 1022 magnum."

The post that started this thread announced the end of the 10-22 Mag.  They made one for years, and apparently just discontinued it.  It was popular a few years ago for conversion to 17HMR.

My bet is that it was discontinued because the market didn't support its continued production.  That is normally the reason any product is discontinued.  With all the other guns available still in .22 mag I don't see the end of one spelling the end of the round.

[Ratltrap]

The post that started this thread announced the end of the 10-22 Mag.  They made one for years, and apparently just discontinued it.

The rifle was in and out of production several times over pressure related issues. My take is that Ruger finally took care of those issues, but first impressions had a significant role in it's demise.

[Duane]

Somebody correct me if im wrong but hasent the lowly .22 rimfire taken more lives per capita then any other caliber seems the national bullistics sites states that the .22 rimfire is the number one caliber used in a altercation with deadly force . I wouldnt underestimate the little pill myself .Sure wouldnt want to be on the wrong end of one that little bullet just bouncing around taking all kind of important inards ? Its alittle different shooting at paper than live animals I do it alot with a .22 magnum single six .The .22 magnum has a very high admiration by most hunters and will be around for a long time