COMMON SENSE COMES TO IDAHO

[crow_feather]

The new Idaho muzzle loader rules read that muzzleloaders must:

Use all lead bullets at least within 10/1,000 of the bore diameter
Have open sights, and use only loose black powder or synthetic black powder
Have an exposed, pivoting hammer and an exposed ignition using only flint, musket caps or percussion caps.

Many people are digging in their closets and dusting off the Hawkins.  The last sentence states "All muzzleloader-only hunts are limited to weapons meeting these restrictions."     

Also - wolves will be hunted in Idaho.

C F

[captchee]

 ahhh well  ya but not completly true . here is the full wording you will see when the reg are printed

Muzzleloader Rules
Effective January 2007

Muzzleloader hunt rules require that weapons must:

* Use all-lead bullets at least within 10/1,000 (.010) of the bore diameter.
* Have open sights.
* Use only loose black powder or loose synthetic black powder.
* Have an exposed, pivoting hammer, either side-lock or in-line.
* Have an exposed ignition using only flint, musket caps or percussion caps.
* Be at least .45 caliber for deer, antelope or mountain lion.
* Be at least .50 caliber for elk, moose, bighorn sheep, mountain goat or black bear.

Muzzleloader weapons that don’t meet these restrictions may be used in 'short range weapon' and 'any weapon' seasons.

[crow_feather]

mine came from the idaho fish and gane news - where did you get yours?

[quickdtoo]

It came from the Idaho Fish and Game web site.

Tim


http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/hunt/misc/muzzle_rules.cfm

[huntersmurf]

And that means the new hightech flinters from Lyman, Traditions, RMC Sports and T/C are legal too, you know the ones with the 150 grain capable MAGNUM loads and fast twist barrel's. Stainless steel barrels, laminate and composite (plastic) stocks. Dang, most of the #11 capped in-lines aren't ratted for that much powder. Yup, them rule makers in IDAHO proved that they can't think their way out of a potato sack this time.

[captchee]

 Ha Smurf , how you been .
 Ahh yes and now . Yess the new flintlock models  do take higher loads .
 However  they are also flintlocks  and while I love my flintlocks . I will tell you that they are not a  grab and go type of ignition .  One had better learn  to  properly maintain them  or  you wont find them very enjoyable .
  Personally I have yet to  inspect  the quality of the locks  on these .
 If they are  close to that of say the Lyman locks  , they would be adequate . However if they are the quality of  some of the other production type ignitions ,  I would  recommend not wasting ones money .
 Folks would be far ahead in getting  a quality lock and back it with a fast twist .

 you will also find  the full regs state  the projectile must be of soft lead not lead alloy .
 so  one might think on  how high they want to crank the load  .
I will add this  wording is new as  it  was lead or lead alloy

 we also need to remember this ruling  disalows , wheel locks, match locks , fuselocks .

 and since i have said it in other places  as smurf im sure can attest to , i will say it here .
 this wording is not the worded the way  i heard it presented to the commission .
 thats right i was there . i heard it . i spoke to the the commission  on the subject .

 this change came from the idaho fish and game   itself . it was presented to the Commission  as a recomendation  based on managment  from the managment section of the department .

 did i suport this move ,, yes . its a step  and thats it
 was it what  was being ask for , no .
 are there modern weapons that will meet these recomendations , ya there sure are .
 honestly  my take is that when the next 5 year plan comes around there will be even less . however  there may also be no muzzleloading spacific season  eather . only time will tell .

 past all that  IMO this is nothing to  be dancing up and down about . its just a change . nothing more then the change that happened in 2001 . in fact  a whole lot less drimatic . if  folks  had been watching , they would have know this change was coming  and if things keep going the way they are . then mostlikly in  2011 you will see another one along these lines
 

[huntersmurf]

Just an FYI on the hightech flinters, RMC uses L&R locks. I here L&R makes good ones. When I spoke to the genteman at RMC he said they fit the locks very tight to the barrel and said they are waterproof, well as much as can be. Green Mountain fast twist barrels, stainless if you want and a choice of laminate stocks in colors.

[GRIMJIM]

WOW!  Whatever happened to a free country where you can choose whatever option works best for you?  I say to each his own.

[captchee]

Just an FYI on the hightech flinters, RMC uses L&R locks. I here L&R makes good ones. When I spoke to the genteman at RMC he said they fit the locks very tight to the barrel and said they are waterproof, well as much as can be. Green Mountain fast twist barrels, stainless if you want and a choice of laminate stocks in colors.

L&R doesn’t make to bad of a lock . however they have been know for problems . thats where they got the name lose and rusty from LOL .
i have had pretty good luck with them as of late though .

as to water proof LMAO thats a frizzen lid design . dont count on that . more like water resistant .
 this also means you must learn to take care of the lock . for if  the frizzen gets misaligned in any way  you will find yourself constantly losing powder .

as to the barrel options .  smurf , this isnt anything new and is an option thats always basically been available .  It didn’t come about with the advent of modern muzzleloading , its pretty much always been there

heck if you want a new Damascus  barrel , made to modern center fire barrel specs.  In say  42 inch,  7/8 across the flats and swamped  . with a 1 in 28 twist   and are willing to pay the cost , I can have it in  , in about a month depending on availability and backlog ? No problem . don’t know why you would want one that long in that twist but ha if  that’s the way your stick floats , im  willing to help ya out

[billy_56081]

I'm sure PETA supports this completly. Anytime you push another hunter out of the field you risk not having thier support when the anti's go on the attack. Good job You all ought to be proud of having such good common sence.

United we stand. Divided we fall.

[victorcharlie]

ps. I would say something about the in-liners sticking it up the old wazoo but I won't do that.

WOW! Thanks very much. Whatever happened to a free country where you can choose whatever option works best for you?  I say to each his own.

I got to agree with you GrimJim.......I pay $29.50 for an archery ticket and hunt for 3 months......I pay the same price for a muzzleloader ticket and get 14 days.........

I wish they would just open the season for "X" days and say go use what you want to use, bow, muzzle loader, shotgun, or rifle.........

I can't understand why a bow hunter gets so many days and a muzzle loader gets so few.......

I guess the bow hunters have a better lobby......

No, wait......it's so the state can collect more revenue and the merchants can sell more equipment (which drives tax revenue).......

[crow_feather]

Try to rain on my parade,  

Well, it may load 150 grains, but it best be loose powder or substitute.  I myself load 120 grains of 2f behing a round ball on my 58.  That kicks terribly, I wouldn't want to try 150 grains.  And it is a minimum 50 cal for elk.

Soft lead bumps up so cupped lead bullets in front of more than 100 grains will be very inaccurate.

Is it a small change?  Some might not think so, but I would disagree.  At least for this state.  People will no longer stop down at wally world and pop for a 100 dollar in line.  People here aren't going to spend tons of bucks for a super in line to meet the new regs when they can get by with a side lock.  And any legislation that starts bringing black powder hunting back to where it belongs is nice to see.  

As for some non-conformist rifles still out in the field, fine, there are still those that emotionally need them.

But they will have to do without sabots, pellets, supper bullets, speed loading plastic crap, and water tight actions.

I also believe that Idaho has a one barrel limit.

Also, ever try to push lead through a fast twist wuth any speed?  Best of luck


C F

[crow_feather]

But not to worry, in-line hunters can hunt the rifle season with their one shot super snot, and I'll cary my 338.

[sharps4590]

No one pushed anyone out of the field.  Abide by the rules and you can hunt same as anyone.  At least it's a move back to the original intent of the season before it was bastardized.

So far it is still basically a free country.  Hunting in all our life times has always been a privelege as long as the rules were adhered to.  It ceased to be a right in the early part of the last century.  There probably is not a person alive and still hunting who remembers hunting before there were seasons and limits.

And as far as good common sense....who was that little man who wanted to ban the round ball?

Vic

[captchee]

I also believe that Idaho has a one barrel limit.

well unless that changed to  double barrels are legal .

[crow_feather]

I guess it is time to move on, this is no longer a traditional site - it belongs to those who shoot both sides of the rifle.   Who wants middle of the road when you belong on the right.                                     As said by several of my Italian forefathers, "Twas shinnin times back when"

[captchee]

well crow feather . i think you may have that wrong .  i address the Idaho commission  on behalf of the TMA. we ask for a traditional season .  we also supported the  Idaho fish and game recommendation .
 now as for myself ? i think its a good thing . its a step in the right direction .
however  folks need to understand this move wasn’t a traditional vs. modern move . the idaho commission  simply agreed with the idaho fish and games recommendations . they did make at least one change based on  our and the IMA  recommendations  but that was on the projectile .
  see this according to the  IDF&G was based on a management issue "supposedly ".
 But now I have heard from those that have talked to the head of the management section of the department that  the commission simple drew a line in the sand . That line supposable was drawn to appease a group of hunters ?
 But I was at the meetings and  what is now in print  is in many places not what was discussed ..
 Do I agree  with this  move , ya I do . However I don’t feel it went far enough .
 I look at it this way . If we are going to have a traditional season , lets have one . Its simple . Make it PRB , lose BP , flintlock or caplock “#11 cap  or musket “ and open sights .
 Lets also open up  all the units for a hunt  not just 4 or 5 .
 See in 91  the state aloud the modern weapons . In 96 they started to regulate some aspects  of the ensuing technologies . In 2001 the  went even farther . Now 5 years later the have made another step . Maybe  they will follow through  the rest of the way in 2011 , who is to say  maybe they will do away with muzzleloading all together , I don’t know .
 However understand that  there were modern shooters also saying enough is enough

[Idaho Ron]

I understand that peep sights are still allowed.  Also some inlines will still be allowed. The TC Scout and the Marksbury are two I know of.  Ron

[dodd3]

crow feather said[Soft lead bumps up so cupped lead bullets in front of more than 100 grains will be very inaccurate.]that is not true if you use a thicker skirt on the minie that is what i do on my .50 and .54 mini's and they are very accuret but  that skirt must be thick .
bernie

[captchee]

 yep dodd thats true . in fact  the conical i use in my  flintlock has a large hollow base to it  so it will  seal  to the rifling better .
 however crow feather also has a point . your not going to get the higher speeds and keep accuracy with the soft lead  .  it will either distort or come apart .

[dodd3]

captchee i drive mine at 1450 to 1500 fps with no probs .i use them in summer when there is a very high fire danger so there is no chance of the bush getting on fire.with a round ball and patch there is i high chance of the patch setting a fire.
bernie

[captchee]

captchee i drive mine at 1450 to 1500 fps with no probs .i use them in summer when there is a very high fire danger so there is no chance of the bush getting on fire.with a round ball and patch there is i high chance of the patch setting a fire.
bernie

from dry patches yes .
 as to speeds . you should be ok in that range .  what i was speaking of is the 2200 + ranges .
 some of the recomended loads comming out are driving conicals in exsess of 2900fps .
infact i know od one manufacture that states that  with the recomended load  thier conical in 50 cal will retain  1700fps at 300 yards
at these ranges a jacket is needed .
 thats a big diffrence from your 14 to 1500 fps

[TrenchMud]

But not to worry, in-line hunters can hunt the rifle season with their one shot super snot, and I'll cary my 338.

I really figured that you would use a muzzle loader all season, I am not trying to be an A$$ or anything,
but from reading all of the posts I have read from you, I guessed that a modern weapon just was not for you. I use my Muzzle loaders for everything I hunt except crows (no pun intended to your web name) , really too much hassle for crows.
Now don't get me wrong, I hunt with other things too, but just because It is not ML season doesn't mean I am not going to be hunting with one. They don't get cleaned and put away after ML season is over.

As far as the Idaho Regs, I for-see a lot of wounded animals from folks who can't shoot worth a crap with open sites.

[captchee]

so ?? would that include those who hunt general season with open sights? not everyone uses scopes you know

[sharps4590]

There are also plenty out there who can't shoot worth crap with scopes or any other sighting device installed on a rifle.  They wound and lose game every year also.

Vic

[billy_56081]

  Like I said before PETA loves this law. Are you guys proud that you have divided hunters? "COMMON SENCE". Sounds like one of the common call words the anti's use when bringing up gun control. You people are dividers. The" if you don't do it my way atitude you are doing it wrong" amogst hunters makes me sick. Our sport is under attack enough by ouside forces ythe way it is. Are you guys proud of your " common sence" when it alienates others from hunting?  Will you be proud off your "common sence" when an anti hunting vote comes up and YOU have alienated so many hunters that you cannot defeat it?

[captchee]

ahhh bla bla peta this peta that .
 let me tell you IMO why peta and their like have any hold on  hunting .
 basically because  we are down to one 2 reasons for hunting in the US.
1) game management
2) sport

 Now we are losing our A@#  when it comes to game management . We either have  numbers that are out of control  that isn’t being managed by hunting . Or we have numbers that are at rock bottom  from poor management of hunting ..
Science is coming out with new things every day . You think all those birth control patches ,  once amount pills  or shots that are being advertised ever 5 minutes on the TV  have not been approved for animal use ?.
 I submit to you that once  an approved  medication and delivery system is  in place . Hunting will no longer be a management tool

2) sport .
 Fellas you and I as hunter do not define  hunting as a sport . Sure we can call it a sport but the general public are the ones to say if it’s a sport or not .
Like it or not we hunters are now a minority of the general population . If the population decides that hunting  or hunters are not  being sporting  then we are in for big ,big trouble , peta be dammed.

 Look around you . That public does not look at long range shooting  during hunting as being sporting .
 They  don’t see the build up of high tech devices being applied to hunting as   challenging .
look around you , where are the magazines  we grew up with . take a good look at those that are still around . remebre OUTDOOR LIFE , remeber FEILD & STREAM  how abdout FUR ,FISH & GAME . a a kid they were all frount of the racks at the store . i could read the stories over and over . now days  not worth the match to burn them .
  need i bring up the current problems  and public concerns with trouphy hunting ?.
its crazy 

 Walk down the street and ask someone what a muzzleloader is and what it looks like .
 Care to place a bet  on what they say .
 Now what do you all think is going to happen  when that general public finds out that their perception of muzzleloaders is wrong .
 What do you think is going to happen when they find out that  what they though was a sport ,. A challenge using obsolete equipment   isn’t the case .

 Well let me give you a hint .
1) they start classifying all  muzzleloaders  under the FFA and we lose our exemption “ already happening “
2) laws get passed  on storage of powders ,IE how much you can have  and how it can be stored “ if you have not checked you need to look because you will find that the fed law is different then your state law . Which is also different then you county law . Which is also different then you city law .
3) laws get passed  regulating where you can used muzzleloaders  even during general  hunting season . Not just modern weapons but all muzzleloaders “ if you don’t think Maine will have a regulations change in the next few years , considering this incident this last fall , your badly mistaken .
 I could go on and on . Its all happening

See fellas suddenly we go from being a welcome addition , even a novelty   to being looked at as nothing more then  the same old status quoi.  
 Look at the modern manufactures advertising , its ridicules.  Folks “ modern shooters “ many times say its a lot of hoooyee  . Ok so then  are we not talking about false advertising here ?
 Come on fellas who do you think that general public is going to believe ?

 Now  before  folks get all in a up roar here let me clarify .  Modern muzzleloading is just one aspect of this . Every disiplian be it  rifle , shotgun , archery , we all are in the same boat .
 We have came to the point where “WE” do not control our destiny .
 Remember we are down to 2 basic reasons for hunting and both are on very rocky ground . We cant control the management aspect . However  IMO we can control the sport .
 But fellas I submit to you the more , high tech gadgets we  keep adding . The  more manufactures  taunt 300+ yard shots with muzzleloaders. bullets qouted at over 1700fps at that distance after being shot from a muzzleloader  ………… the list could go on as I said with all the disciplines .
 The faster the general public is going to see us as not a sport . The more they are going to perceive us as have no sporting challenge .
So PETA  well you know what , you might want to take a good hard look at that . Maybe think real hard  next time you load that corelock  down the muzzle or consider adding that hi-end Leopold.
 ,, something to think on  . Again not just muzzleloading but hunting wide

we have to control ourselves  and our sport . for fellas if we dont  guess who will .
 

 i can also tell you that the idaho commission looked at alot of  modern equipment . not just those   on sale now but those  that are coming on the market . they made a decision , a unanimous decision  to make this move .
 Now why the commission decided it needed done ? I cant say . But I can tell you again that the recommendation from the department of fish and came was because of management .

 Some have said that since the meeting that they have heard it was about drawing a line in the sand . Well if that’s the case then  guess what . Basically the commission said enough is enough .
So guess what  we as hunters dropped the ball . We didn’t control ourselves and  the state had to step in and do it for use .  So that’s another check against the  SPORT category

[roundball]

The theme of this thread is funny and always predictable...and simply put, the facts are as follows:

1) Traditional muzzleloader enthusiasts spent time and money all over this nation getting states to establish special muzzleloading seasons for them in an effort to keep alive the old traditional ways of muzzleloader hunting as our fore-fathers did using basic muzzleloaders with Flintlocks & caplocks, PRBs, open sights, blackpowder, etc.

2) Decades later along come modern made high performance scope sighted rifles using plastic sabots, stainless fast twist barrels, powerful weather enclosed ignition systems, modern smokeless powder, all in an attempt to achieve centerfire rifle ballistics which they have, and to bring that centerfire rifle performance into the special muzzleloading seasons to take advantage of it so they can get an extra couple weeks of deer hunting.

3) The traditional oriented hunters understandably take umbrage with that, just as bow hunters take umbrage with attempts to allow modern high tech scope sighted cross-bows into the archery season.  Traditionalists are attempting to get states to revisit and clarify the ML regulations that established the special ML season in the first place, restoring them to their original purpose, which several have begun doing such as Idaho...others are also posting restrictions to things like scopes, sabots, jacketed bullets, smokeless powder, etc.

4) The inline owners immediately get all up in arms and start name calling, claiming the economy will be hurt, accusing traditional ML hunters of all sorts of things, claiming that they're trying to divide up the hunting community with their actions, insisting that PETA will show up the next day, etc, etc, ad nauseum.


The facts are that a 12 year old understands the chronology that's occurred over the decades...a 12 year old knows the seasons were never intended for the high performance equipment available today...a 12 year old understands that's why centerfire rifles are not allowed in the first place...inline owners ought to at least be big enough, mature enough, and honest enough to admit that same truth and stop the name calling, stop the attempts to mis-direct blame, etc.

The influx of inlines has caused this mess not the well established traditional hunters...the states, moving slowly as state governments do, are now simply trying to set things straight.

[quickdtoo]

  I think this one has run its course.

Tim