Author Topic: Gun Laws--Strange  (Read 2307 times)

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Offline McLernon

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Gun Laws--Strange
« on: February 07, 2007, 01:07:32 PM »
I live in Canada and have a firearms possession and acquisition license(PAL). If I want to order a long gun over the phone all I have to do is give my PAL number and a few identifying details and they send the gun thru the mail. Across Canada it takes about one week door-to-door. It is my understanding that in the U.S., where guns laws are supposed to be less restrictive than in Canada, you have to go thru an FFL at both ends with fees to pay. Set me straight on this please because maybe I shouldn't be so down on our system of gun control.

Thanks

Mc

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 01:21:49 PM »
Mc

Here in the USA we do not have the PAL , with this only a few people have to put up with all the red tape that goes with shipping a firearm , also we are free to do a face to face sale or trade with out all the red tape that goes with it .

We do not have to have a PAL or other type of permit to own a firearm , the Fed Gov does keep track of guns that are bought from a dealer and sold by a dealer , for the most part they do not have any idea of how many guns i have .

Up north you are required to tell them what guns you have if i am right , or am i wrong on this point .

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Offline tallyho

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 09:22:21 PM »
McL having lived in Canada through the Alan Rock years, been an instructor when they were still called FACs (Firearms Acquisiton Certificates for those who don't know) and moved to the US just before the registration of long guns kicked in, maybe I can help shed some light.

As Stimpy says, there are fewer folks having to jump through the paperwork hoop in the US, and selling or trading face to face is straightforward. And there is no national requirement for a 'posession' type licence (though states or cities may have one). Generally the only time one needs to go through an FFL is when purchasing from a licenced dealer, or from out of state. Private purchases for the most part are not hassled.

One problem however, in addition to the feds, each state has its own regs. It may be possible to do a simple purchase in one state, and next door the same purchase is restricted, or verboten.

Example, we moved from New Mexico to Washington State last summer. In NM we could purchase a handgun (from a licenced dealer) with a standard FFL doing the standard NICS phone call. In WA to buy a handgun one must either have a Concealed Carry Permit or go through an FFL who forwards the paperwork to the local sheriff for a background check, adding a week to 10 days to the process. Not a big deal if you have a CCW, but it was a surprise to us when we bought my wife's Beretta .22 

Also some states have 'politically incorrect' (similar to Canada's prohibited, and restricted) categories in their laws, some still have hi-cap, or 'assault rifle' bans that the feds no longer have. And add to that mix the chance that regs in larger cities are different (usually more restrictive) than state, or fed regs. At least in Canada the law is the same across the land providing consistency and lack of confusion. The disadvantage to that of course, is that in Canada one can't really contemplate a move to another region where the regs might be more acceptable.

And to make it even more 'safe for society' there are various moves afoot to 'close the gunshow loophole' (as the antis call it) by making it necessary to purchase any firearm at a gunshow through an FFL. Some states have storage and locking requirements as well (like Canada's). This in fact has been proposed here in my new home state of WA. Don't know yet how it will turn out, but I'm gearing up again because it is like going up against the sleazy Liberal Party of Canada from the early '90s all over again. (I thought I might get too old for this cr@9 but I guess not.)

Doing a deal over the phone as easily as you describe certainly seems, on the face of it, appealing; the only glitch for us here in the States is having the government require a licence (PAL) simply to own a firearm; that is very distasteful for most of us to contemplate.

All in all, I would rather be subject to the situation south of the border than north (especially the western part of south of the border) ... yet I keep waiting to read that the Conservative government has finally pulled the plug on the Liberals stupid firearms legislation. But I doubt that can realistically happen as long as they are a minority government and have some dependence on the NDP and/or the Bloc.  :P

And at the risk of sounding provocative: Yes you should be down on your system of gun control... you should be down on any system that does anything other than aim it's efforts at the prevention of violent or crazy people from acquiring firearms... and severely punishing those who actually misuse them. Neither Canadian nor US gun control laws do that.

Nowhere on the planet, at any time in history, have so-called 'gun control' laws prevented violent people from harming other people. The only real effect has been to oppress and alienate legitimate, responsible firearms users. Oh yeah, and to widen the gap between the powerful and the powerless.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2007, 12:54:12 AM »
I live in Canada and have a firearms possession and acquisition license(PAL). If I want to order a long gun over the phone all I have to do is give my PAL number and a few identifying details and they send the gun thru the mail. Across Canada it takes about one week door-to-door. It is my understanding that in the U.S., where guns laws are supposed to be less restrictive than in Canada, you have to go thru an FFL at both ends with fees to pay. Set me straight on this please because maybe I shouldn't be so down on our system of gun control.

Thanks

Mc

I can buy a handgun at the local store , how about you?
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Offline GaryCrow

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2007, 01:00:14 AM »
The operative word in your post is "license".  You have to have a license to purchase a firearm, I don't.  You might be able to order a gun through the mail AFTER you've gone through all the hoops required to get the license to own it, which could take God knows how long.  If I want to buy a firearm I can do it as soon as I walk in the store, without any license.

They're two different systems.  I feel U.S. firearms laws are too restrictive and are just going to get worse, but Canada's are ridiculous.  You've pointed out one small issue where you seem to hold and advantage, but overall the U.S. firearms laws are much more sensible than Canada's.

Offline J. Plate

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2007, 03:05:12 AM »
This may be just rumor or heresay....but I had heard that you also pay a 'per gun per year fee' to have them.   Is that correct? 

That fee would rank right up there in the ol' budget for some of us here in the States.....!!  ::)

Purchasing a firearm isn't as restrictive as it sounds here. You pay a little more now if you're getting them through the mail, after shipping and FFL fees.  But that's only for out of state shipments.  In NY, residents do not need an FFL to ship or receive firearms to and from each other. It's only when your receiving from out of state that you need a dealer.  And if you're shipping out of state, you can send it without an FFL, but you need to include in the packaging, a signed copy of the receiving dealers license. Handguns are dealer to dealer only in NY. 

But as far as handguns go, it's a little more restrictive but only by state.  I live in NY, and would need to apply for a permit to own a handgun that is regulated by the county.  Even at the county level, some are more restrictive than others.  Conversely, my brother lives in FL and all you need down there is a drivers license to walk into a gun dealers and buy a handgun. 

Offline backstrap

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2007, 03:39:34 AM »
Here in Okla i can go into a gunshop and buy a long gun or shot gun the same day and walk out with it after they make the call to check my background out the door i go, now at the same gunshop buying a hand gun u have a 5 day waiting period no matter how fast your name is cleard with the back ground check thats that law the gov put in about 10 years ago or when ever it was the BRADY bill. now i can go to a gun show and walk out with a handgun the same day if u do besnuss with the right guy no papaer work or nothing so here where i am depends on where u buy your guns but i dont have to have a perment to buy any gun
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Offline NONYA

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2007, 06:39:04 AM »
No waiting period for any firearm here,out the door when u pay,felons get thier gun rights back after they are off paper as well,it automatic in MT.
If it aint fair chase its FOUL,and illegal in my state!
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Offline aulrich

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2007, 10:43:17 AM »
Yes we can go to a local gunshop and buy a handgun but the permitting is in two parts you need to qualify for a restricted PAL(Handguns and alot of the black rifles) then you need a permit to transport it (ATT) you generally don't get those without being a member of a gun club and it is generally only valid to your local gun clubs, if you take it to a smith you need another ATT. There is no taking a handgun to the bush for protection/plinking or hunting.

Face to face sales of long guns are easy call the 1-800 number they take buyer and seller info 5 min depending on "on hold" time. The shop I deal with uses web access so the paperwork is even faster. The first time on the registry it took 2 hours to get through.


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Offline aulrich

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2007, 10:47:09 AM »
There was a per gun charge but they dropped it to help with compliance.
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Offline McLernon

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2007, 01:54:31 PM »
Don't get me wrong, I am dead against Canadian long gun registration. The rest of our guns laws seem reasonable. The only problem in being reasonable and giving 'a little' is that the anti's want to take 'a little more'. And that is what happened with our $2 billion long gun registry. It is costly and completely useless as far as crime prevention is concerned.


Mc

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2007, 02:49:25 PM »
Yes we can go to a local gunshop and buy a handgun but the permitting is in two parts you need to qualify for a restricted PAL(Handguns and alot of the black rifles) then you need a permit to transport it (ATT) you generally don't get those without being a member of a gun club and it is generally only valid to your local gun clubs, if you take it to a smith you need another ATT. There is no taking a handgun to the bush for protection/plinking or hunting.

Face to face sales of long guns are easy call the 1-800 number they take buyer and seller info 5 min depending on "on hold" time. The shop I deal with uses web access so the paperwork is even faster. The first time on the registry it took 2 hours to get through.




This is tragic!!!
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Offline backstrap

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2007, 04:16:20 AM »
i Though once a felon allways a felon didnt think them kinda charges came off your record ever in a persons life time
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2007, 04:49:50 AM »
Yes we can go to a local gunshop and buy a handgun but the permitting is in two parts you need to qualify for a restricted PAL(Handguns and alot of the black rifles) then you need a permit to transport it (ATT) you generally don't get those without being a member of a gun club and it is generally only valid to your local gun clubs, if you take it to a smith you need another ATT. There is no taking a handgun to the bush for protection/plinking or hunting.

Face to face sales of long guns are easy call the 1-800 number they take buyer and seller info 5 min depending on "on hold" time. The shop I deal with uses web access so the paperwork is even faster. The first time on the registry it took 2 hours to get through.




McLernon, when I look at the above, I don't see anything reasonable about it. It is none of the gov's business what I do with my handguns, whether I hunt with them or take them to a range. Gun club my a##!!
And what's the deal with black rifles. I have sold my 223 bolt guns & went to a Match grade AR for the Varmits that I shoot at 223 yardages. None of anyone's business which type rifle or cal. rifle I choose to shoot.
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Offline McLernon

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2007, 05:36:09 AM »
Hi Nomo:

What I think is reasonable in our Canadian gun laws is the training and background check required for a PAL and the storage requirements. Beyond that I agree they are not reasonable. I don't know why they restrict the AR's except maybe a limit on the number of rounds requiring a plugged magazine. And the handgun laws simply don't work so why restrict their use anymore than a long gun. ;D

Mc

Offline kennyd

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2007, 03:44:53 PM »
Colorado requires FFL for all gunshow transactions, so you either buy/sell to a FFL or use one of theirs.  We can buy anything we want right now and carry it out after the check.  We can put our pistol under the seat loaded and take off = carry in the woods.  We are not supposed to conceal when hunting, but who is going to look?  The biggest trouble with "reasonable" laws is that there is never an end to the tightening of the restrictions.
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Offline tallyho

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2007, 04:03:45 PM »
The biggest trouble with "reasonable" laws is that there is never an end to the tightening of the restrictions.

Actually the biggest trouble with "reasonable" laws are the "reasons" that are used to label them "reasonable".
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Offline McLernon

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2007, 06:43:50 AM »
Well at least we are all 'reasonable' ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mc

Offline tallyho

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2007, 10:01:50 AM »
Yah, too bad we don't get to make the laws...  ;) ;) ;)

Someday, I'll tell you about my conversation with Alan Rock in 1993. The only "reason" he lowered himself to speak with us, was because the sleazy Liberal Party promised to consult with the firearms community before they ignored us! :P
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Offline McLernon

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Re: Gun Laws--Strange
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2007, 10:21:06 AM »
The long gun registry was Allen Rock's magic carpet to 'Stardom' or so he thought. The reasoning was, that cars are registered so why not guns. But then that leaves knives and blunt objects and projectiles of any kind.

I am sure that they have stats to prove that gun violence has been reduced since bringing in the long gun registery. My goodness handguns have been registered for years and everyone knows that they are no longer a problem, right?. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Mc