Author Topic: Saiga 30-06 vs Rem 7400/750 (Read 10480 times)

BattleRifleG3 · « **on:** February 08, 2007, 07:41:53 AM »

For those who aren't aware, the Saiga 100 in 30-06 is here in the states after being promised and procrastinated for nearly 5 years.

For those who aren't familiar with Saigas, they are sporting variations of the AK-100 series with proprietary magazines and classic curved grip stocks. They are available in 223, 7.62x39mm, 308, 410ga, 20ga, and 12ga. Most Saigas take many AK accessoris, including optical mounts. Many have found these Saigas readily convertable into the better balanced AK config using US made trigger groups and other US made parts to comply with import laws. These Saigas are busting the myth that AKs are inaccurate by design and many of them shooting MOA groups and practically all of them shooting <2MOA.

The Saiga-100 is a bigger step in the sporting direction, with a push button receiver safety and many other parts changed from the original AK spec. But the core AK action, legendary for its ruggedness and reliability, is practically the same. So the Saiga-100 isn't one step away from being an AK lookalike. As an afficionado of Saiga conversions, I don't plan to do any to my Saiga-100.

But as a semi-auto hunting and target shooting rifle, the Saiga-100 may be one of the most competitive rifles on the American market. It can be had for under $500, and when people are paying $800 for a BAR and $1000 for a Benelli R1, and $400ish for the problematic Remington 7400, a rifle based on a design that can fire tens of thousands of rounds, work after being rusted shut or dropped in the mud, and shoot 2moa on a bad day is probably one of the best deals out there.

So my question is do folks out there think this is a real rival to the Remington 7400? Do you think sales of the 7400 in 30-06 will drop in the near future? Or is the Saiga-100 something that just won't catch on? Would you buy one over a 7400? Why/why not?

wi-deerhunter · « **Reply #1 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:24:34 AM »

If you didnt keep saiga clean it'd jams and will have problem anyways. Remington autoloaders are legend and lot of hunters killed lot lot of deer with Remington autoloaders. Its history.. I dont know about Saiga but i saw in Dunham sports store and it is so ugly! All i know it is made in russia. I perfer Remington and i am proud to say that I am owner of Remington Model 750.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 08, 2007, 08:35:56 AM »

Keeping a Saiga clean keeps it working precisely and minimizes wear. Yes you should clean any gun, but if the elements get to it, the Saiga will still work.

At least every Saiga I've fired to date. This one is still a range virgin.

Nothing wrong with liking a Remington of course.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 08, 2007, 09:56:14 AM »

I've got a 7400 in 30-06 and it'll shoot with any gun using loads it likes, in the 1" range or so. Much better looking than the Saiga's, and if there are any problems, there are many Remington service centers. How many Saiga centers are there?? If you like the Saiga, that's great, but I don't think it'll be any threat at all to the 7400, the BAR, or the R1.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #4 on:** February 08, 2007, 11:25:32 AM »

Quote

So my question is do folks out there think this is a real rival to the Remington 7400? Do you think sales of the 7400 in 30-06 will drop in the near future? Or is the Saiga-100 something that just won't catch on? Would you buy one over a 7400? Why/why not?

Well it's a moot point if Siaga doesn't get on the ball.

But my take on the Remington autoloaders the 7400 and 750 is they are probably more popular due to thier ergonomics being so close to the universal 870 than for any other reason. There's just something about the reciever and stock on a pump or auto remmy that feels RIGHT in your hands like nothing else.
The Saiga may be the best shooting and functioning autoloader in the world but it won't take anything away from this.

I will add that it won't be hard for the Saiga to shoot better than the Remington 7400. I could wring 1" groups from mine. BUT only if the barrel was stone cold between shots. Even if you waited a minute between shots by the third shot you had a 3" group. But I didn't mind as this is well within deer killin accuracy.

R.W.Dale · « **Reply #5 on:** February 08, 2007, 11:30:19 AM »

My bad double post

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2007, 10:40:53 AM »

Here's a pictorial writeup of the Saiga-100 with disassembly photos.

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=14684
I do have to concede the ergonomics and balance of the Rem 7400.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2007, 11:17:12 AM »

Well, it isn't as ugly as I thought it would be. Kind of looks like a cross between a Benelli Nova and a Benelli R1. But it's still not pretty. But if it works, and you like it, that's all that matters.

targshooter · « **Reply #8 on:** February 13, 2007, 02:42:12 AM »

BattleRifleG3,
Nice treatise on the Saiga 100 you did in the Saiga-12 site. I thought there was a wood stocked version without so much plastic and weight? Did this not happen?

1911crazy · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:29:30 AM »

Sorry I have to go with the quality first and if the saiga 100 in 30-06 is as good as my saiga sporter in 308 it has to be one of the best buys out there. My saiga sporter in 308 will shoot 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds benchrested using surplus south african ammo. With its AK47 designed action and its battle proven reputation it has to be the best thing to hit our shores ever since the very first chinese sks did in the late 80's. Now tell me you never shot or owned an sks either? Boy are you missing out on some shooting fun...The people in russia at the Izhmash plant(were the ak47 is manufactured) focused on manufacturing a very accurate sporting rifle and its more accurate than its ak brothers. The russians did see a nitch in our market for a quality semi-auto rifle. It also has a chromed lined barrel and chamber so it can digest any ammo corrosive or not and it can take the punishment of plinking and hunting without the worry of ever wearing it out. The biggest plus is cleaning it, it all comes apart in seconds to be fully cleaned and lubed. I wasn't fond of a sheetmetal gun until i purchased the new saiga sporters in 308 and right after i purchased the saiga sporters in .223rem too. I don't have the saiga 100 in 30-06 because the funds are tight but i will get one soon and i also want a saiga 12 shotgun too i have heard great things about those too. Once you shoot it you will change your mind about the guns from the russian people.

With the people at remington turning a deaf ear at the service center and giving bad service I doubt i will ever buy another remington product again. Plus the quality at remington has gone down since 94 too. I had a remington semi auto in 30-06 and didn't like it because i couldn't properly clean it. It doesn't come fully apart plus it jammed time to time too. Now that winchester is gone is remington next? I hope so!!!!! The springfield armory people have it comming too!!! If you manufacture junk you deserve it. I had two anniversary remington 1100's that would function right out of the box they jammed just trying to put them together. One jammed right in the store. Since they wouldn't give me my money back i had to take a third one that functioned in the store yup i took it right to the pawn shop!!!!!!!!!! I'm hunting in bear country for birds with the first rounds birds shot and the last rounds slugs so would you trust it after 2 guns jammed up tight?

BTW; Remington did buy the rights to sell the russian izhmash manufactured baikal shotguns a few years ago. I think they made a big mistake not buying into the saiga line too.

If you ever had to put your life on the line with todays times we never know i what gun would you grab first? Remington or the Saiga? All i can say is to choose wisely grasshopper..........

Get the saiga's, the ak47's and sks's while you can there fun guns to shoot...

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:44:02 AM »

I never heard of a wooden stocked Saiga 100 from Russia. However, within 2 weeks of getting mine, I prototyped a wooden stock set.

Larger pic:
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=11214

1911crazy · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2007, 12:59:57 PM »

My dealer has the wooden stock saiga in 308 i think it is but i'm not sure now it may be in 30-06 i'll have to go and look closer at it. I can't say if its a sporter or a 100 too. I just buzzed by it looking for a skeleton stock 308.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2007, 04:52:33 PM »

I have never even heard of a wooden stocked Saiga 30-06, not even in Russia. I don't believe any 30-06s were made that are not the Saiga-100 model.

The wood stocked Saiga you speak of is most likely a S-308, which is an excellent rifle if you like the round, and one that will make you like the round if you don't already. I prefer the 22" barreled version with wooden furniture, and have developed my own line of wooden furniture for the Saiga series, as exemplified by the above stock.

teddy12b · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:48:04 AM »

First off, great post.

I wasn’t even aware that Saiga was coming out with a 30-06. I’m glad they are though! I can go down to the local store and pick up a synthetic 7400 for less than $500. From what I’ve heard though 2” at 100 yards is what to expect along with some jamming. The vast majority of people with these don’t brag about outstanding accuracy, they use phrases like “hunting accuracy”.

That being said I doubt any Saiga is going to take anything away from Remington or any of the rest of the big manufactures. Saiga will find its nitch, but there’s a lot of old 7400’s in closets with a lot of deer to their credit that aren’t going anywhere. If I could find a Saiga 30-06 for less than $350 I’d have to give it some serious thought.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2007, 04:44:24 AM »

YOU try making a Saiga 30-06 for $350.

$500 is a very good price for what you're getting.

To me it boils down to what you want. $500 is a bargain if the rifle meets your needs, but $350 is too much if it's really not what you want. But I think that if more people got a chance to fire the Saigas, they'd find them much better suited than they would imagine.

Me, I'll go to Remington for their 700 and 7600. But Saigas own semi-auto reliability and hold accuracy with some of the best.

teddy12b · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2007, 05:56:03 AM »

I see Saiga rifles and shotguns all the time for $350 - $425. Where I'm from it's not hard to find a Saiga for $350. I haven't seen any of the 30-06's in the stores yet so I can't say I know exactly what they'll cost. I do however use gunbroker.com as a pricing reference for any new gun idea. Currently there is a Saiga 100 in 308 for $380 on that website and that's why I use the $350 price as a reference. Maybe you should look for a better deal than one for $500. It's your money do whatever you want.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2007, 06:12:43 AM »

The Saiga-100 takes a bit more work to build than a regular Saiga, but I paid $400 + $28 dealer fee, due to a free shipping special. The Saiga-308, which is still more than an intermediate caliber Saiga, tends to go in the high $300s, perhaps lower for the 16" carbine. It's the 223 and X39 Saigas that can be found at $300 or below.

Add shipping and dealer fee to anything you find on gunbroker for a good comparison.

$500 is what you should expect to pay to a dealer who gets out on a limb stocking one of these and needs to make good on his investment. I don't have any difficulty imagining a dealer asking $500 for something he paid $420 shipped for. $500 out the door would be a good deal. I figure you could spend hours looking and several gallons of gas just to save $20-50, or if you find something at a fair price from a dealer you like take the opportunity.

Nothing wrong with looking for a deal, but sometimes finding a deal becomes more important to some people than finding what they really want and actually enjoying shooting. I've seen people try to haggle lower out of the lowest priced dealers at a gun show. If it's a used or rare gun, they often come back to find it gone, and I go home happy.

Still boils down to buying what you really want for the price it costs, and saving money by not buying stuff you don't want, which I see so many people do just because it's a good deal.

teddy12b · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2007, 06:24:18 AM »

Hopefully I'll be able to make it to a local gun show this weekend. If they have one there I'll be sure to take a look at it. What kind of groups do you get at 100 yards with yours?

1911crazy · « **Reply #18 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:29:28 AM »

I have owned and hunted with american made rifles ever since the 70's. Getting my very first chinese norinco sks opened up my eyes to the imported guns. The new russian izhmash saiga's have really impressed me. I think there on the top of the heap as far as price and quality. All you have to do is to shoot one.......

Now how many rounds do they fire out of an ak47 in a war? I doubt you'll ever shoot out or wearout a saiga even if you plink and hunt with it. Think about it...its an investment for a lifetime for around $400.

I been a 30-06 guy for most of my hunting/shooting life too but now i like the 308nato/win round too just as much.

teddy12b · « **Reply #19 on:** March 14, 2007, 01:13:24 AM »

Does anybody have an accuracy test for one of these Saiga 30-06 rifles? I'm curious about how well they shoot.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 14, 2007, 03:05:32 AM »

I will soon, but their accuracy should be the same as the S-308 which shares the same accuracy affecting components. That would be about 1.5 moa with open sites and a good shooter.

dpastordan · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2007, 05:29:21 AM »

I've owned a Remington 742 in .243 and a Remington 7400 in .30-06. I never had a problem with the 742 and wished that Remington kept that version. The 7400's had a reputation for jamming - mine did - because the original spring was defective. I presently own a Browning BAR in .7mm Rem. Mag. - the Long Trac - and just got it. I haven't shot it yet...so the verdict is out but most folks give good marks to the BAR. The .243 in 742 was one of the most accurate rifles I owned - 1" groups at 100 yards. The '06 got 2.5" at 100 yards.

I just picked up a Saiga in the 7.62x39 version. Closest I will get to a .30-30 [equivalent] semi-auto to hunt deer and varmints with. The local dealer occasionally gets them in .223 but has not been able to obtain the .308 or .30-06 versions. The problem in Maryland is that this type of rifle is regulated [had to wait 3 weeks for the paper work to clear]. Can't figure that out as my BAR in .7mm is probably deadlier at longer ranges thant the small 7.62x39. The Saiga is the hunter version - semi-auto - but I guess the Komrad Leaders in the one party state I live in figure these rifle will jump out of the gun safe and start shooting people on their own.

I'm waiting for the opportunity to take the Saiga to the range. It is a rugged piece. I put a 4x scope on it. I will report later on the results.

teddy12b · « **Reply #22 on:** March 27, 2007, 04:44:01 PM »

I've been thinking about it for a while now, but I'm just going to have to go with a Saiga over a Rem 7400/750. Even if the accuracy wasn't too much different, one has a reputation of reliable function in design and the other doesn't. If I hear that these shoot reasonably well, I'll be buying a Saiga.

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2007, 03:09:40 AM »

Finally got a range report. Everything was as expected, but a better shooter could certainly have done better.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15746

williamlayton · « **Reply #24 on:** December 16, 2007, 02:41:53 AM »

In considering whether to start a new topic or respond too this one---I would consider this too be the best option.
Too begin with, I don't hunt anymore--I do shoot, however.
I have no rifles, for at least 30 years---but that is another story, for later, perhaps.
I have been considering a rifle--my shooting club has a 400 yd range.
I was considering a savage as a beginner/beginning.
The more I considered the options--I really don't think I would do more than friendly matches--the more intrigued with the thought of a semi-auto---just seems more fun.
I have been investigating the Saiga very closely---I have always liked the reliability that came from AK.
It seems the .308 would be a caliber that I could deal with.
The hardware (furniture) and optics are questions I have, and can't seem to find discussed anywhere. i would like too keep too synthetic stocks--but are aftermarket available and/or more desirable ??
The optics are the big question---any advice/discussion in this area would be a real plus.
Blessings

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #25 on:** December 16, 2007, 04:31:39 AM »

I've owned and hunted with both the Saiga and Rem.,and with handloads the Saiga shoots far better.Both of my Saiga's have 1 quirk though,they put the first 2 rds. in the same hole and the third shot will land 1/2" away at 4 o clock. The 308 really likes the 125 gr.BT's and if you shoot 3 rds.,put 3 more in the clip it'll shoot the exact same group as the first.The 223 is 1 deadly varmit gun if you only put 2 rds in the clip.Does anyone have a fix for this?
I bought mine 1 yr. ago and it was $335 out the door for the 308 and $255 for the 16" barrel 223. I was so impressed with the 308 that I ordered the 223 and I'm very happy with mine. Now if they would come out with one in 444 Marlin. They are ugly though. Digger

teddy12b · « **Reply #26 on:** December 16, 2007, 10:31:06 AM »

I agree that they're ugly, but the AK design works. I'd love to get to handle one of the Saiga model "100" in 30-06, just to see how it handles. I've seen a 100 in 308, but it may be completely different in 30-06. If I could get my dirty hands on one of those I'd probably have to buy it on the spot.

williamlayton · « **Reply #27 on:** December 16, 2007, 11:49:10 PM »

opinion on optics.
Blessings

BattleRifleG3 · « **Reply #28 on:** December 18, 2007, 11:07:27 AM »

From what I've seen, the 100 in 308 and 30-06 are pretty close. I prefer the standard config to the 100 model, but I like 30-06 enough to put up with the 100. I've added a custom made wooden set to my S-100.

As far as stocks go, if you like synthetic you're in luck. All the models come in synthetic furniture, only one comes in factory wood - the 308. You can get US made wood furniture for any Saiga model from a wierd guy I know, but expect to pay and wait for custom work.

Optics is where the Saigas are not so good, and the 100s are a step worse. The stamped receiver is not a good mounting for a scope, although some have had excellent results with side rail mounted scopes on the intermediate cartridge models. DO NOT trust the typical top cover scope mount. There is one that may or may not yet be available that hinges on the rear site and will be very expensive, but should work well. The side rails on the 100 series are actually higher than the typical AK rail, even though they take the same optics. A low-pro version of the typical AK mount is supposedly going to be imported, sometime, maybe.

The best optic solution for any non-milled receiver AK is a scout type mount that replaces the rear site and includes a peep site. There you're mounting to a solid piece fixed firmly to the barrel. Custom mounts in a scout configuration may also be possible. The Ultimak system may or may not work as is on a Saiga-100. If it does but furniture is an issue, don't be afraid to cut up the factory handguards. I have a spare set if anyone really needs them.

444 Marlin is actually a conversion project in the works by a company called Tromix. I look forward to having one.

williamlayton · « **Reply #29 on:** December 18, 2007, 12:56:28 PM »

This is really getting to be an interesting project, but, at this point it almost seems that all options for the Saiga are pretty expensive---to the point of considering more expensive alternatives---and , at best, options that are not as practical as more expensive alternatives, and which would actually provide the specs being wished for.
Today I found Saiga in all three configurations, .223, .308 & .06, at collectors firearms, here in Houston. the man who I talked too was the stores military weapons specialist, and, quite knowledgeable concerning optics and mounting systems for this weapon.
He was not at all enthusiastic about the outcome of the project and my expectations being fulfilled. His thoughts, that at ranges more than 200yards, there was high probability that results would be less than desirable than spending the same amount or a little more for a better base weapon.
I will have need too do a little more research and thought projection on this weapon.
I WAS pretty impressed with the weapons handled however and could not squawk about the weapon and base cost. If it were used strictly as a hunting weapon too be used in conjunction with a low power and low cost optics for field use I would jump on this one in a minute. Still it might fit the bill if I can contain cost and get some of the performance I desire for a weapon too simply plink with at 400 yards.
Blessings