Author Topic: NEF 12 gauge shotgun barrel problem on hull extraction. (Read 1590 times)

tubaman · « **on:** February 12, 2007, 11:36:58 AM »

I got a 12 gauge barrel when I sent in my handi rifle receiver. It shoots great...only problem is the gun does not break open enough to get the shell rim by the edge of the receiver without twisting and wiggling. When loading a new shell it "ticks" the edge but slides in easy enough. Just after the shot the shell hull fits snug, and it is difficult to get the empty hull out. Not good for wanting to throw in a second shell for a followup shot, especially in single digit weather.

The gun will not break open any further, as the roll pin (actually looks like a roll of sheet metal - probably a roll spring) down by the barrel lug hits on the underside of the inside projections of the receiver and will not let the barrel break open any further.

Anyone else have this problem, or a cure. The only thing I could see to do is file off some of the receiver edge and try to add finish (is it bluing)? Actually that would be a help, especially if a curved notch (to match the shell rim to add clearance) as it would give a notch for back sight to line up with the front bead (kind of a buckhorn affect).

The receiver is about 1/8" larger diameter than the barrel chamber on the outside so it might be contributing to the clearance problem.

Cookiemann · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2007, 02:14:29 PM »

From what you described, it sounds as though your forend may be fitting real snug, Try turning the forend screw out about a quarter to half turn and see if the action opens completely. If the spent shell is not being ejected you may need to do a good cleaning on the ejector and barrel lug. Any amount of grease AT ALL in cold temps can cause the ejector to malfunction and not shoot out the spent shell. I used a little too much Oil once, and had to spray some Loc Eaze in the barrel lug to clean it out so it would work properly in the cold weather. Worked fine at home but not out in the cold. Are you using a synthetic forend? I have found that I need to not give the screw that last little bit of torque and the action opens smoother.
Do Not...Do Not...start filing and modifying your receiver. This could prevent your other fitted barrels from fitting properly. Always make your adjustments on the barrel, not the receiver.

cookiemann

MSP Ret · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2007, 03:37:52 PM »

Cookieman is right on the money. Do not do any filing on your reciever. remove the forearm and see if the gun then open enough to remove the spent shell case. It does sound as if you have a forearm problem. If it is the roll pin you describe remove the barrel from the gun, look at the barrel from the bottom looking at the bottom of the barrel lug, The roll pin should project equally from each sdie, if not strike it (a firm tap) with a hammer to move it so it is centered in the lug. Get back to us and let us know how these work. I do not believe this to be a big problem but merely simple fitting or adjustment....<><....

tubaman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 13, 2007, 05:26:04 AM »

Thanks Cookieman and MSP Ret<

I had the fore end off when I studied the break open at home, and seen where the roll pin comes up against the inside projections on each side of the receiver. The roll pin is centered, so it does stick out the same on each side. So the fore end is not the problem. As I mentioned the receiver sticks up past the barrel, which is why I could see a U-shaped notch that would add clearance for the shell's brass rim (the rim used by the ejector). The ejector pops open but not with force enough to eject the shell clear of the chamber I do not think (I have an old single shot 410 that kicks a shell out like crazy...better not have your eye or nose in the way!).

From what I can see it seems a design problem (I have been involved in CNC metal shop in the past). I do not really want to cut into the receiver, but I do need this problem resolved. I do have the rifle barrel to use the receiver with, but wanted this to be a flexible single shot, and wanted to be able to shoot the occasional 3-1/2 shells (which I have not tried yet). I was planning to use 3-1/2 on those cold and snowy days where the pheasants are getting up a ways out already.

I do not know if NEF will have a solution for this problem or a fix. I got the 28" 12 gauge barrel last year...the original brass bead was loose (bad threads) and I put in one with a red plastic insert to that catches light to "glow"...it fits tight so I am pleased.

Cookiemann · « **Reply #4 on:** February 13, 2007, 11:15:58 AM »

Check out the pics in the "Tapping Turkey Barrel" thread. The pic of the scope on a barrel...that roll pin in the barrel lug, I believe, is the pin MSP was referring to. You are correct, that ejector should spit that spent shell right out of there, but if the ejector assembly inside the barrel lug is all gummed up, it will not do that.
When the barrel is properly latched and cradled in the receiver, it may sit just a bit lower than the top edge of the receiver. That's kinda normal. I still think it sounds like the barrel is not opening completely when you hit the barrel release and break it open. This could be caused by a tight or poorly fitted forend. But, you're there and I'm here, I just know that I have had to play with forends on mine to get mine to break open the way I want. If you know anyone with other barrels or forends, you might try some different ones to see how they lock up.

cookiemann

MSP Ret · « **Reply #5 on:** February 14, 2007, 01:46:13 AM »

Just a thought, check the appearence of the the ejector latch on bottom of your barrel lug. Compare it with the pictures of the extractors in the FAQ's. let us know if perhaps you have one of the cheaper extractors like the ones they have started putting on centerfire rifle barrels a while ago. I hope H&R/NEF has not started putting extractors on ths shotgun barrels now instead of ejectors. It has been said that it might happen but I was hoping it would not, that really might be the beginning of the end for them....<><....

Cookiemann · « **Reply #6 on:** February 14, 2007, 08:02:22 AM »

Never thought of that! I certainly hope they haven't done that. You're right, would be the beginning of the end.

cookie

tubaman · « **Reply #7 on:** February 14, 2007, 08:39:58 AM »

Thanks for all the input!

I did not know they used a different ejector - extractor type. I got a reply from NR1871 (NEF) customer service and they said to send the barrel and receiver back for adjustment. If they do replace things in the lug, I would like to make sure it becomes an ejector...the barrel kicks the empty out and you are ready to put another shell (for followup if needed) in. Else if you do have to pull the empty shell out, that is a task not desired. I wonder if they would change it if it is an extractor...at least I do not see it try to eject out of the chamber off of the claw that grabs the rim to push it back. The spring does not seem that stiff to eject in pushing on the claw.

I would like to see them offer the 444 marlin barrel in a longer length, like the buffalo barrels, especially with use of the leverolution ammo. I do not know what length would optimize use of the cartridge burn, but I would think the 22 inch would rise fast on the shot, and a longer barrel would reduce kick some.

Any thoughts on optimum lengths?

MSP Ret · « **Reply #8 on:** February 14, 2007, 11:23:00 AM »

If it is an extractor they cannot change it to an ejector, BUT, if the piece that extracts/ejects the shell from the chamber feels as if it is spring loaded then it IS an ejector and you are all set. The extractors as I understand them are not spring loaded but are mechanical in nature so you are good to go, just let them fix it for free and your all set....<><....

tubaman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 14, 2007, 05:50:36 PM »

MSP,

Thanks for your knowledge on the ejector versus extractor. I am glad to hear mine is the ejector style. I will be anxious to see if it will fully kick the empty hull out after I get it back from repair. NEF said it needs an adjustment that will make it work.

I mentioned replacing the sight, but I also had to remove material from the wood stock to be able to sight down the barrel...kinda put a slight concave in and removed most all the comb. Would the synthetic stocks allow me to get in the sight plane?

Also I see in the forum a desire for short barrels (there was a 45-70 in black with 16.5" barrel). Anyone have input on the 22" 444 marlin barrel...I see it and the 44 magnum are the same length? I can sight better down a longer barrel, and I have gotten my deer a lot with one shot; just have to exercise patience. I am one that likes to be on stand, and have found 9 out of 10 times the deer will work in closer to make that one shot all that is needed.

I would like a longer barrel if NEF would make one, and it seems most other 444's are 24". I would not turn down one at 26 or 28". (If NEF would make me a longer prototype I would test and review it.) I would like to get some opinions and experienced insight.

Cookiemann · « **Reply #10 on:** February 14, 2007, 11:33:25 PM »

I will pass off the rifle questions to those more knowledgable than I. I am glad to see you are getting the shotgun problem taken care of. Good luck with all that. Hope some of the info I passed along was helpful. Happy shooting/hunting.

cookiemann

MSP Ret · « **Reply #11 on:** February 15, 2007, 02:43:28 AM »

Did you by any chance end up with a Monte Carlo stock on that gun with iron sights instead of the straight stock it was supposed to have? This error/problem has been mentioned quite a few times here lately. It seems some guns come from the factory with the wrong stocks put on and if a Monte Carlo buttstock is put on a shotgun or rifle with iron sights it precludes the ability to use iron sights. Just recently I saw a beautiful as new 24" barrel fixed full choke 3.5" chambered 12 gauge NEF with a nice dayglow or firesight front sight and nice wood on it for $85 at Kittery Trading Post, it had a Monte Carlo buttstock on it and it was impossible to look down the barrel to sight it. I liked it but chuckled and put it back on the rack. At camp I thought about it and tried to buy it on Thanksgiving day when returning home. KTP was closed so I checked the next time by, it was gone!!! I still think about that shotgun (see I'm posting about it now) and wished I had bought it but hope whoever did get it knows the stock is wrong and just does not suffer with it and condemn all H&R/NEFS because you cannot line up the sights on them. If you get a set of synthetic stocks just be sure you get the non Monte Carlo so you can properly line up the sights. If you want a longer barrel I suggest the Buffalo Classic in 45/70. I agree that all people can shoot more accutartely if using iron sights when they have a longer sighting radius but if you are shooting fairly closely from a tree stand you should be able to get by with a shorter barrel. I have a 19" barreled .280 as well as the 26" .280 and the 19" is just easier to carry in thick brush, however for accurate shooting or longer range I would reach for the 26" barrelled gun for several reasons. Good luck and keep us updated....<><....

tubaman · « **Reply #12 on:** February 15, 2007, 07:41:07 AM »

MSP Ret,

Yes it came with the Monte Carlo stock. So does NEF replace it for free? I thought about the synthetic, but I have a good sized cheekbone and do not want to try and whittle on a synthetic to make it fit. I would rather try out the other stock - maybe see if one is around in someone's shop locally. The one thing that scares me about doing that is that I might buy another NEF....and then my wife would likely use it on me! (Unless I can "sell" the idea I am getting it for one of the grandsons)

I called HR on getting an accessory catalog with hopes to see a good picture of the different stocks. I also asked about the 444 marlin at the time. They will not be available for a few months according to the rep gal I talked with. The rate of twist is 1 in 38" - same as the 44 mag. I thought I seen a posting hoping they would make the 444 a 1 in 20" twist? I would think the 1 in 20" would be the twist they would have picked, since they mention using the Leverevolution ammo. So I do not know what to do, but maybe look at some of the other threads on this (I could pose this question/quandery again).

Also there was a barrel thread -wish list that I tried to look at on this site, but it does not seem active.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** February 15, 2007, 07:46:39 AM »

Welcome to GBO, tubaman! You can find a lot of info in the Centerfire FAQs and Help sticky, including barrel twist rates which include the 444 Marlin which was a available in the past in a 1:38" and the new one which is the same, our hopes for the Marlin cousin twist rate of 1:20" were for naught!

There's also a thread in the FAQs titled, "Let's see some Handis" with more stocks than you'll see anywhere!!

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #14 on:** February 15, 2007, 08:15:44 AM »

tubaman, I am sure H&R/NEF would have replaced that Monte Carlo stock with the proper straight one for you since you bought the gun new and they sent ot out with the wrong stock. That seems to have happened a lot lately. A couple of yeras ago it was never heard of. However since you have already worked on the stock

"but I also had to remove material from the wood stock to be able to sight down the barrel..."

it looks to me like you are stuck with that "customized" stock now. All is not lost though, it is a simple matter to run the stock through a saw and reconfigure it to a non Monte Carlo design, I have done several. You will not be able to remove enough material from a Monte Carlo synthetic stock but they also make a non Monte Carlo synthetic. I say go for another gun, a nice .22 LR Sportster will come with a non Monte Carlo synthetic stock, buy it for the grandchildren to teach them how to shoot and put that stock on your gun, experiment with the old stock for "the grandchildrens" gun, or perhaps a .410 shotgun for them with a non Monte Carlo wood stock...it works for me....<><....

tubaman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 15, 2007, 04:51:51 PM »

MSP Ret,

If I read you right, the Sporster's have the same length stock (non-Monte) as the Monte I have modified? I do not know much about all the NEF offerings, but they seem to have a lot more than I remember from when I first got mine.

A Customer Service email said they put ejectors on the shotgun barrels, extractors on the rifle barrels. That should be good news. I had asked a few other questions that did not get an answer. They are kind of spartan in their replies. I would like to see a specification section at their website, kind of like when you look at a brand/model of car at Edmunds, where you can headroom, leg room, hip room, ground clearance, etc.

It would be nice to see a chart or something on the specs of all stocks (length, drop at comb, etc.)....even better on the rifle barrels showing rate of twist, weight, taper, etc. It could be done in a spreadsheet but not sure how anyone could access it on line.

The rate of twist on the 444 marlin was a disappointment...what with Marlin having moved to 1 in 20". To bad Marlin did not own them as they might have some input on that......wait.......they do own them! The Marlin website gives some specs, such as rate of twist at 1:20" r.h. For what reason would this suggestion not be passed from a Marlin designer to the NEF group. It just seems that using the modern accepted twist would translate into more barrel sales. (Of course, that might translate to less some where else).

I do have another question for you. I see there is a lot of barrel trades, sells, and such at GBO, with members making PM offers. How does one buy a barrel when NEF recommends them being fitted by them to the receivers at their shop? I would bet that some are going to have some unacceptable gap fit on a different receiver. I am sure there are a good number at the forum that can add weld and re-grind in the lug pin area to tighten up such gaps, but it is a tricky art. I would not try it. If it was that it was too tight and some relief was needed at the pin area I am patient with a file and could make it work.

My thought was if the twist is the same as an old offering, and a 444 popped up for sale, how do I have confidence in buying a barrel not factory fit to my receiver? If it was that it was too tight and some relief was needed at the pin area I am patient with a file and could make it work. But for the time involved....

Anyway there are lots of interesting things at the GBO forums. It could take weeks to go through it and glean knowledge.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** February 15, 2007, 05:16:24 PM »

You'll do well for yourself to read the FAQs, you'll find the barrel fitting instructions and you can decide whether you're up to the task or not.

About a third of my NEFs and H&Rs are built from parts, lots of barrels fit fine, others will need some fitting, sometimes a lot of fitting. $:-\$

Tim

tubaman · « **Reply #17 on:** February 15, 2007, 05:57:39 PM »

quickdtoo

Can you give me a link to the fitting instructions? I am still trying to find my way around the forum. I would like to get into the "wish list" section to puruse, but I get a "not authorized" message.

If that picture is your collection, then I can see you like handi's and have gained the expertise to fit any part you want! You have a lot of fun lined up along that wall!

One interesting search on 444 twist rate shows the BFR revolver uses 1:16. Seems the heavier bullets need the faster rate, and deeper rifling like a ballard style. Are the NEF's closer to a micro-groove or a ballard style? I do not have any 444 or large bore to look at.

If NEF is looking in, make a 24-26" 444 with the 1:20 twist and ballard rifling, and you have an order waiting! I would not pass on a 28" length (actually, all my shotgun barrels are 26-28"....maybe that is why I like longer barrels). I did get to shoot a fellow's Sharp's rifle (had a 34"? long barrel)...well a fairly long barrel anyhow and it was cool. It was front heavy, but that felt right for off-hand shooting as it seemed easier to steady wobble. Maybe it is that Quigley syndrome, or wanting to make most of the one shot.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2007, 06:19:30 PM »

I fixed the Wish List link here in the shotgun forum, it wasn't working for me either!! $:-\$

Here's a direct link to the FAQs and Help sticky in the NEF/H&R Centerfire forum which is just a few forums above this forum on the main index, you'll find the barrel fitting links towards the bottom of the page.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,26264.msg141263.html#msg141263

That is a pic of my collection, but it's changed since the pic was taken, I only have 2 barrels that aren't on their own frames, there are 26 complete rifles and 2 shotguns now, but I'm always looking for more.

I haven't decided on a .444 Marlin yet, it's still mighty tempting even with the poor twist rate, but max loads with 300gr bullets in the .445SuperMags have proven to make reamed 44mags shoot very good even with their overbore barrels, so all it will take for the .444 is warm loads for the heavier bullets.

I don't really "need" another big bore, I've got three 45-70s, a 45-120 and a .500S&W, all H&Rs, but the .444 is a nice one to just have and I want one!!

Tim

tubaman · « **Reply #19 on:** March 22, 2007, 10:59:18 AM »

Quicktoodoo

.....I seen where you have talked about reaming a new chamber, and somewhere at this site I seen a place to rent the reamers. I am open for suggestions on where to rent reamers.

Well I have been gone for a while, my dad passed and have been busy readying his estate. While I was up in my old hometown I took a break with a cousin and went to a gun show. There I came across a 44 mag barrel for the NEF, used! With some price kickin' I decided to buy it.
It was too tight on my receiver, but with a wood dowel and #400 grit followed by emery I got it to snap shut tight. With a blank case I painted the primer and tried dry fire.....it hits the primer slightly off center. So I think it will work fine.

My concerns is with the bore - how to check if oversized (from what I read here at GrayBeard it could be .428 to .433 variance). I have also thought about reaming it out for the 444. I will try shooting some 44 mags first, but likely will want to make it a more potent big bore before summer is out.