Author Topic: what did I do wrong? (Read 1003 times)

aldar · « **on:** February 19, 2007, 01:04:10 AM »

went to the range yesterday with my .243 Handi. shot 2 box's of factory rounds before trying my reloads with out any problems. first reloaded round popped the action open when fired. I then checked the other reloads and found most of them would not allow the action to close tight. with a reload in, I was able to just grab the barrel and give it a good pull and open the action without using the relase latch. brass was trimmed using a Lee case gauge and bullets seated to specs in the Lyman manual at 2.71oal. loads used were not at max. all the reloaded cases were FL sized using Lee dies. I guess I'm stumped on this one.

Willyp · « **Reply #1 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:21:31 AM »

IMHO,if you did not lube the inside of the necks,when FLS,you have pulled the shoulders forward on the cases?

?[made them longer than should be!]

dubber123 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:23:40 AM »

Are you positive you FL sized all the way to the bottom? If not, the shoulder may be hitting he front of the chamber before the gun closes. Also look at a round you tried to chamber, are there any indications that the bullet is hitting the rifling? Your gun may have a shorter than standard throat. 4 years ago, I worked with a .338 mag that chambered a box of factory Rems. hard. When you completely closed the bolt, and opened it again, it left the bullet stuck in the throat, and dumped the action full of powder. The throat was really short on this one. If this is the case, you will have to seat your bullets deeper. Hope this helps.

aldar · « **Reply #3 on:** February 19, 2007, 01:34:22 AM »

I did'nt lube the inside of the neck, but I did run a brush thru each one several times. when FL sizing, I tried to get the sizing die to make contact with the shell holder. I adjusted the die as instructed, but when looking real close with a shell in the holder, it looked like the die was not making contact with the holder. maybe a couple of 1/1000's gap. the reloaded shells were able to drop right into the chamber with out any friction and the rim was flush with the barrel.

gypsyman · « **Reply #4 on:** February 19, 2007, 02:41:02 AM »

When you full sized, you mentioned that the die was touching the shell holder. I run the ram all the way to the top, with the shell holder in place, screw the die down until it touch's the shell holder, then lift the handle, and screw down the die another 1/8-1/4 of a turn. This cams over the press.This makes sure the shoulder gets pushed back, and case get's sized down toward the base as far as possible. I'm not familiar with the Handi rifle, but have a few T/C's. If these rounds were fired out of this rifle, couldn't you just neck size the cases? We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!! Remember-(12/7/41)-(9/11/01) gypsyman

Don Fischer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 19, 2007, 05:26:42 AM »

Quote from: dubber123 on February 19, 2007, 01:23:40 AM

Are you positive you FL sized all the way to the bottom? If not, the shoulder may be hitting he front of the chamber before the gun closes. Also look at a round you tried to chamber, are there any indications that the bullet is hitting the rifling? Your gun may have a shorter than standard throat. 4 years ago, I worked with a .338 mag that chambered a box of factory Rems. hard. When you completely closed the bolt, and opened it again, it left the bullet stuck in the throat, and dumped the action full of powder. The throat was really short on this one. If this is the case, you will have to seat your bullets deeper. Hope this helps.

Either you got a box of ammo or a chamber that does not fall within spec's. That should never happen with factory chamber or ammo.

Lone Star · « **Reply #6 on:** February 19, 2007, 06:02:50 AM »

Were the reloaded cases originally fired in your rifle? If not they may have expanded too much for your FL die to resize fully - rare but it does happen. If the FL die does not touch the shell holder when you have fully sized the case, you need to follow gypsyman's advice - which is in the instructions for most die sets BTW.

It is possible that your chamber is reamed on the short side of the specs, and that the die is reamed on the long side. The best way to fix that condition is to grind a few thousandths off the bottom of the FL die. Be careful if you do that!

.

Catfish · « **Reply #7 on:** February 19, 2007, 07:23:27 AM »

I agree with those that don`t think you full lenth resized your brass. If you die does not tough the shell holder you did not full lenth resize.

Lead pot · « **Reply #8 on:** February 19, 2007, 08:05:12 AM »

Measure a couple of your fired cases and then measure the sized cases and see what you come up with.
Also take one of the cases you fired in the chamber and run that through the size die set all the way down on the shell holder, Take an over all measurement before sizing and check that over all after sizing, that will also tell you if that sizing die is compatible for the chamber.
Make sure you lube the inside of the case mouth or the expander plug so it does not pull the neck just for this comparison,
Or take out the depriming stem out all together so you dont pull the shoulder forward just for measuring purposes.
When you get things set and you start loading again you must remove that case lube from the inside and out side of the case before charging the powder.
You should not have to size that case full length after it is fired in your chamber, just neck size it.

Kurt

Lead pot · « **Reply #9 on:** February 19, 2007, 08:19:28 AM »

I might add one more thing.
The regular production line sizing dies are sometimes either to tight or loose, if there to loose they will not push the shoulder back far enough on a new unfired case or a case fired in another chamber, especially if that case was fired in a auto loader.
And if the sizing die is to tight it will push the shoulder back to far and you have a head space problem which will effect the accuracy and worse will separate the case.
It's important to set you sizing die with a case that was fired in the chamber you are loading for.
You can set it back a couple of thousands for hunting were you wand a case that will load with ease or just neck size it.

Kurt

aldar · « **Reply #10 on:** February 19, 2007, 08:32:04 AM »

i have some more factory rounds that I'm gonna measure against the resized cases to see what I get. another thing I forgot to mention, when I dropped a reload into the chamber, I watched closely to see if I could see why it would'nt lock up tight. It appears the ejector arm was'nt being moved forward enough to get under the rim. this I think is why it won't lock up. Could it be that I moved the shoulder back too far allowing the shell to drop too deep into the chamber? or do you think I have a head space that too large?

Wingman26 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2007, 08:53:15 AM »

There are two things that are the most likely cause, but I need to know some specifics.

You said that you trimmed the brass, was that before or after resizing? If trimmed before resizing with no neck lube you could have stretched the cases, ALWAYS resize first, trim second. Pull a bullet on one of the rounds that won't fit, and double check the length of the empty case.

The other likely cause is shoulder not bumped back, this has been mentioned in the posts above this one.

Also make sure your primers aren't protruding.

PlacitasSlim · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2007, 09:40:43 AM »

One of the handiest tools I have is the RCBS Mic Gauge. I use one to check each new batch of ammo with a shoulder.

jhalcott · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:11:27 AM »

Another problem you MAY have is a wide shoulder. When you seat the bullet and crimp it ,SOME TIMES the case will bulge out ward at the juncture of the side and shoulder. This usually happens if the case is to long. Some times it is HARD TO SEE but it prevents the case from going completely into the chamber.measure the shoulder carefully to see if it is the correct diameter.

aldar · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:19:12 AM »

got to thinking and measuring after some of your suggestions. found the shoulder spec's off from factory rounds. I knew I set the die up right, so I moved the pin up a little farther. Presto- the rounds chamber tight and eject perfect. the pin had come out of adjustment. now I'm gonna load some dummy rounds to check them with setting depth. thanks to all you guys for your help, I was stuck on this one.

Outcast · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2007, 10:50:46 AM »

ald..,

If your reload popped the action open your load is too hot for the rifle. Too much pressure for that action coming from some place. Sounds like your other rounds weren't properly sized ... and that's probably lucky for you. Check your over all cartridge length too, make sure you aren't jamming the bullet into the rifling as that will spike pressure.

Lone Star · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2007, 02:36:37 PM »

Quote

If your reload popped the action open your load is too hot for the rifle.

This is not true with the Handi. I once handed the unloaded H&R Shikari to a friend to shoot - he loaded it, aimed and fired. The action popped open on him. The load was 14 grains of Unique and a 300 cast grain bullet - hardly a hot load. The problem was he did not close the action fully - shooter error not being familair with a break-open action. A firm snap on closing and the problem disappeared.

Glad the OP solved his problem. It appears that he was not fully resizsing his cases because the decapping rod would not allow the ram to fully insert the case into the die. A good job of troubleshooting....

.

jhalcott · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2007, 05:40:50 PM »

from his last comment I'd bet he was crimping the bullet BEFORE it was fully seated.That can cause the shoulder to bulge and prevent complete loading into the chamber. This happens when the cases are allowed to get too long most often.

PaulS · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2007, 11:25:28 PM »

Aldar,
You said the sized cases would drop into the chamber. If the did after sizing and then after seating the bullet they don't then your bullet seating die is not adjusted right. You have to unscrew the die so you are not crimping the bullet with the seating die. If you crimp the bullet before the bullet is fully moved into the case then you are pressing the bullet and case neck down after the crimp is made. That causes the case to bulge at the shoulder making it a wide point in the case. They will not fit. Your only path is to pull the bullets, powder and primers and resize the bullets. Back your seating die out two turns and see if the case with a bullet seated will properly chamber. If it does chamber easily then leave it set there with no crimp. Try your loads for accuracy. If they shoot well after finding the best load for your gun then why crimp? If you must crimp then tighten the die 1/4 turn at a time down on a sized case with the bullet seated (with the seating plug backed out a few turns) until a slight resistance is felt. check to be sure the crimped case will chamber. If it does then tighten the seating plug down on the case with bullet seated after you raise it all the way into the die.(lower the handle all the way and then screw the seating plug down on the bullet until the plug seats on the bullet of the dummy cartridge) Check the case chambering again. If all is well then load a new round with the altered set up and see if it chambers and it is crimped. Lock everything down and relaod all your cases being sure that each case seats after reloading.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #19 on:** February 20, 2007, 10:31:15 AM »

Quote

the reloaded shells were able to drop right into the chamber with out any friction and the rim was flush with the barrel.

Do you mean the reloaded shell or the resized case dropped right in. If the later that would seem to indicate a problem when seating the bullet. Probably pushing out the shoulder as mentioned.

Selmer · « **Reply #20 on:** February 20, 2007, 02:24:52 PM »

Check out Bellm TC's and the article on headspacing with break-open rifles. I know he discusses TC's, but it also applies to Handis.
Selmer

aldar · « **Reply #21 on:** February 21, 2007, 12:37:09 AM »

dakota, it was a reloaded shell that dropped right in, but would not allow the action to close tight. I re- adjusted the de-priming pin in the die set and re-ran all my shells thru. this time I was able to get the die to run the full length of the shell. i think the pin was hitting the bottom's of the shells before FL sizing them. I seated a couple of bullets in dummy rounds to the max COL and they chambered tight and ejected without probelms.

Outcast · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2007, 12:22:48 PM »

Quote from: Lone Star on February 19, 2007, 02:36:37 PM

Quote
If your reload popped the action open your load is too hot for the rifle.
This is not true with the Handi. I once handed the unloaded H&R Shikari to a friend to shoot - he loaded it, aimed and fired. The action popped open on him. The load was 14 grains of Unique and a 300 cast grain bullet - hardly a hot load. The problem was he did not close the action fully - shooter error not being familair with a break-open action. A firm snap on closing and the problem disappeared.

Glad the OP solved his problem. It appears that he was not fully resizsing his cases because the decapping rod would not allow the ram to fully insert the case into the die. A good job of troubleshooting....

.

Yes, it is in fact true. In your instance it was operator error. However, I have seen both Handi rifles and Savage 24's pop open when handloads were too hot or the ammo was too old and pressure spiked. A friend had a .243 Handi open on every shot and ejected the empty 15 feet over his right shoulder with a load that was below max in his handbook. THE LOAD WAS TOO HOT FOR THAT RIFLE. A different load settled things down.