Author Topic: Overpenetration? (Read 1794 times)

jpuke · « **on:** February 20, 2007, 01:59:52 AM »

How many of you guys worry about overpenetration? I recently bought a Glock 20 and I'm wondering if I should worry about overpenetration using the 10mm. I'm a reloader and not a fan of loading lots of different bullet weights, I want the load I carry in the woods to be the same that I'd use at home - both for economy and familiarity with shooting just the one load. I currently load a 180 gr. Hornady XTP around 1300 fps - let me know what you think.

rockbilly · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2007, 03:59:42 AM »

Overpenetration should be a concern of every shooter, more especially a holder of a concealed carry permit/license.

What I worry about is being confronted by an individual in a crowded area, and having to pull my gun to defend either myself or family. If I shoot through the perp and hit someone else, then I have opened the door for charges against myself, or at least for a law suit.

Every shooting situation will be different, there is correct answer as to type and weight of bullet to fit all conditions. We can only pray, that in a shooting situation we select the shot where no one else will be hit.

John R. · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2007, 04:38:14 AM »

That load will more than likely overpenetrate. You can either download it (40 S&W) or drop to one knee and fire at an upward angle at the bad guy. Either way your responsible for where that bullet goes.

LEO · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2007, 06:45:11 AM »

Overpenetration can be an issue but I think that there are other more pressing issues, first reloads in a defensive carry handgun are not a real good idea and just create problems for you in court that can be avoided by carrying factory produced ammunition, with that said reload verses commercial has nothing to do with the justifiiability of the shooting it may come up in a civil matter later on and it can be overcome with good experts but why create a problem when there is no need, there are plenty of good defensive loads for the 10 out there. When hunting shoot whatever you want, when carrying for defensive purposes it is better to stick to commercial. The next issue is missed shots, more shots miss in a defensive shooting situation than hit usually so depending where you live you may well be more liable for misses than overpenetration because with an overpenetration you put the bullet where you intended it just went all the way through the target. Finally with the deal of overpenetration, I can just about guarentee in a for real shooting situation you will not think about what is around/behind your threat, you are in a struggle for your life and you will be locked into the threat, that is why several police officers have been shot by a second "unseen" assilant. If you are concerned about your load overpenetrating I would find another load.

Heavy C · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2007, 05:30:45 AM »

Ditto on what LEO said. Carrying reloads can lead to an accusation of cooking up some "extra lethal" round in a civil court. Find yourself a good frangible commercial load and make sure your weapon cycles flawlessly with it. When you're trying to save your bacon you just want to stop the threat without hurting anyone else.

PaulS · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2007, 06:34:02 PM »

The only time that overpenetration is a major concern is when you are in your home. There is no such thing as an effective round that won't go through a target under some conditions. I just figure that my bullet is going to keep going. That means it is my job to make sure that I don't shoot an inocent by-stander.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2007, 01:53:35 PM »

Corbon has a 165 gr. JHP for the 44 mag. that is advertised to take off at 1300+ fps. That should be enough stopper for any perp and not overpenetrate like a 240 gr. bullet.

RaySendero · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2007, 02:11:46 PM »

Quote from: jpuke on February 20, 2007, 01:59:52 AM

How many of you guys worry about overpenetration? I recently bought a Glock 20 and I'm wondering if I should worry about overpenetration using the 10mm. I'm a reloader and not a fan of loading lots of different bullet weights, I want the load I carry in the woods to be the same that I'd use at home - both for economy and familiarity with shooting just the one load. I currently load a 180 gr. Hornady XTP around 1300 fps - let me know what you think.

Two completely different situations - Need two different loads!

Reload for the "woods".

Buy factory loads for personel protection - OK to reload similar loads for practice.

PaulS · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2007, 12:27:44 AM »

I think we need to understand what overpenetration is.
A load that will pentrate the windshield or door of a car whose driver is intent on running you over and still kill the driver - is that "over-penetration?

is it over-penetration for a bullet to go through body armour and still be lethal to the person wearing that body armour?

Is it over-penetration to go through a 13 year old kid who is coming at you with his 9mm blazingand continuing on having only lost 500 fps?

How do you know what you are going to be up against? Should we all become proficient with 22 LR head shots at 25 yards and just forget about the ones who are in a vehicle?

I contend that like the "Saturday Night Special" there is no such thing as a round that "overpenetrates". There are only soft and hard targets and we have to have the ability to defend ourselves against the hard targets as well as the soft targets. Since no one round will safely do both jobs without going through a soft target then we have to take the responsibility for the "safe and responsible" shot in self defense.

Mikey · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2007, 03:08:45 AM »

The issue of the use of handloads in defensive shooting has been raised numerous times. Each time when the question was asked about court cases where the defender was found guilty of using handloads that were more destructive than anything you can purchase there were no documented court cases to base that determination on. This is not to say that it may not happen at some point in time but so far there aren't any documented court cases where the use of handloads in defensive shooting has become an issue.

You can certainly purchase commercially manufactured ammunition that is more than adequate for defensive situations. Use police loads if you want and nobody can find you guilty of being some sort of cowboy (by using your own loads) if you ever use your firearm for defense.

Your Hornaday xtp loads will penetrate the human torso and continue on. Overpenetration becomes a concern when innocent people are likely to be injured by a bullet that penetrates one individual and continues on to impact another.

There have been a few cases like this from the mid-60s in Illinois that I recall. One Peoria, Ill. officer who I personally knew used a 41 magnum while on duty once to shoot a bank robber who exited a bank and began firing at him. He shot the robber only once and the bullet penetrated the robber, killing him on his feet, but continued on to strike a 80 yr old man who was walking down the sidewalk half a block away. The elder gent was injured, certainly, but not killed. Other cases involved the Illinois State Police who used 357 magnums at the time and the 150 gn truncated fmj armor piercing bullet. One case I was familiar with involved a car chase and the Officer firing his 357 - the bullet penetrated the car body and continued on through to the dining room window of a home, impacting a roast turkey sitting on the dining table while the entire family was ready to eat. Fortunately no innocent people were injured but the turkey took a beating.

Your 10mm slug will 'over-penetrate' a human torso but how much 'collateral' potential it has for injuring an innocent person is unknown. Many of the current 'flying ashtrays' made today may not carry much past the initial target, yet this is always a concern in defensive shootings, but not so in the hunting field where you want the bullet to penetrate through and through.

Most of the commercial loads won't change the point of aim/point of impact with your pistol so you won't have to worry about sight changes, most lilkely, so switching magazines from hunting loads to defensive loads when you get out of the field isn't a big deal.

I'm not going to recommend switching barrels to a 40 S&W but as I recall the 10mm FBI loads were loaded to the 40 S&W power levels - you may want to try and find some of those if they are still around.

A defensive shooting situation will unfold very rapidly. Knowing where others are at the time will help you decide when to shoot if the need arises. Your bullet may 'over-penetrate' but hopefully not injure an innocent person. HTH. Mikey.

LEO · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2007, 03:37:21 AM »

Mikey, you are right in that the circumstances of the shooting are what determines whether it is justified or not and what the person uses for the most part is not a factor, the standard is whether or not the use of lethal force is justified or not. If it is justified it doesn't matter if the person was killed with a handgun, shotgun, ball bat or 85 Buick. But with that said reloads can create a problem for you in civil court and can cause some problems with the forensic evidence in determining distance and such. Now not that these problems can not be overcome but why create additional problems for yourself when after a shooting you are going to have enough problems anyway. The slight added cost of the factory carry ammuniton over the reloaded ammo is insignificant compared to the headaches it can save you and there are many good defensive loads now days for about any caliber you can imagine.

S.S. · « **Reply #11 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:37:18 AM »

Problem is, these factory loads being mentioned are not accurate in all firearms.
Also, they are too expensive for most people to practice with them very much.
Thus comes in reloading for accuracy in a specific firearm and not reloading to
make a round that will kill a rampaging cape Buffalo with one shot.
Mikey, you beat me to it.. I can find no case that was successfully prosecuted against
someone for using reloaded ammunition either. I think this is a myth perpetuated by the
Ammunition manufacturing companies. Out of all the years I was in law enforcement,
I can not remember even hearing anyone bring up reloaded ammo, much less try to
prosecute for it. I carry what is accurate in my weapon, I would rather hit the perp and deal with the consequences, than miss and hit an innocent bystander.

myronman3 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2007, 03:30:27 AM »

you know, i have worked in factorys. and i handload. when it comes to nut-cutting time, i would rather bet my life on my handloads than what some shmuck in a factory loaded. and IF it ever was asked in court, of course i would want to use the most lethal thing available, or why even shoot the bad guy? obviously, talking them out of their bad deed wasnt working.

i think some writer started this whole myth of "factory ammo for self defense" crap. i shoot what i practice with, and i load my own ammo. so if i ever have to shoot someone in defense, it will be with ammo i loaded myself. y'all use your best judgement.

PaulS · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2007, 10:27:03 AM »

Well, there is at least two of us. I practice with my handloads. I have worked the load up and tweaked it to get the most accurate load I can have. Thats what I carry too. I want to be sure that my shot is going to hit what I intend and not the guy or girl standing next to him. I have no trust in ammo from the name brands and no history with it. I can hunt, target practice, plink and defend myself with the same ammo. My handloads are that ammo. If you are going to use a handgun to defend yourself you had better be familiar with it and the ammo in it. I am.

454Puma · « **Reply #14 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:32:12 PM »

Mr Fish of AZ was convicted and factory ammo was used to help convict him!! Prosecutor made a big deal on the 10mm ammo he used! So ammo is ammo use what you think is best. I use my reloads and don't worry about over penetration as usually it's you and the BG -they don't like witnesses! And if your in a crowded Mall situation -leave and let the BG shoot at the many other targets about! Or take him out and don't worry about it!

Case in point- recent mall shooter in Utah- of the video I saw there was no one around him and plenty of open shots to be had by anyone with a gun to take him down.

corbanzo · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2007, 05:02:09 AM »

Just make sure that you've got two bad guys in a row, so you can use the second as a backdrop.

Mikey · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2007, 06:37:03 AM »

Ummmm, backdrop or, backstop? Mikey.

papajohn428 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 15, 2007, 11:28:38 AM »

I think the whole "Don't Shoot Anybody With A Reload" thing is a double-edged sword. I've been a reloader for a long time, and I've had a lot more trouble with factory ammo than I have with my own practice ammo. A 45ACP load blew out over the feed ramp in a 1911, I've had 357 ammo with inverted primers, some that didn't have the flash hole punched out, even bullets seated backwards and upside down. These were NOT commercial reloads, this was pricey, name-brand ammo, bought at full retail.

Having said that, Massad Ayoob has listed several instances where people were taken to task by prosecutors for using handloads, inferring that they were practicing alchemy or witchcraft by concocting "Extra deadly ammo, so deadly the factories don't even sell it....." Just because it's a stupid point doesn't mean some scumbag lawyer wouldn't try it. Personally, I'll stick with the factory loads, but you can bet I'll examine them VERY carefully before I put anything in my gun.

As for overpenetration, I'd have two separate loads,, one for defense, one for woods bumming. For two-legged predators, I'd try the 135 or 155 grain Hollow-Point loads, both are loaded pretty hot, but shouldn't overpenetrate on a chest shot.

And if you can get two BG's to line up, I say try for a double head-shot. Even if it doesn't kill the second one, it should still interrupt his train of thought!

Papajohn

S.S. · « **Reply #18 on:** April 16, 2007, 04:09:42 AM »

Did Ayoob give specifics on the court cases ?
Who VS. Who and in what jurisdiction ?
I too have read him talking about it but have not been able to
substantiate what he said... If he gave specifics in what you read, please list them..
We must remember that "GUN WRITERS" are bankrolled by ammunition companies
with advertisements and such.

jimster · « **Reply #19 on:** April 16, 2007, 11:41:56 AM »

I still think it depends on the State and laws in the State when it comes to prosecutors looking at things like that. The State I live in if your justified in using deadly force, it doesn't matter if you use a ball bat, and Buick, or a gun...your either justified or not. If there is ANY question on the justification, a prosecutor can be your worst nightmare I'm sure. Lately in this State (Michigan) they have been leaving the good guys alone in the shootings over the past several years. Michigan also reinforced the self defense law even more not too long ago. Your allowed to stand your ground here also and do not have to retreat. Also, the criminals family can not take you to civil court and drain you if your justified by the State.

PaulS · « **Reply #20 on:** April 23, 2007, 12:36:06 AM »

Quote from: 454Puma on April 03, 2007, 04:32:12 PM

Mr Fish of AZ was convicted and factory ammo was used to help convict him!! Prosecutor made a big deal on the 10mm ammo he used! So ammo is ammo use what you think is best. I use my reloads and don't worry about over penetration as usually it's you and the BG -they don't like witnesses! And if your in a crowded Mall situation -leave and let the BG shoot at the many other targets about! Or take him out and don't worry about it!

Case in point- recent mall shooter in Utah- of the video I saw there was no one around him and plenty of open shots to be had by anyone with a gun to take him down.

Can I get some specifics as to where and when this prosecution took place? I would like to see what he was charged with and why and the final outcome.

wtroger · « **Reply #21 on:** April 26, 2007, 06:17:17 AM »

If you are truly worried about over penetration then go with the Glazer safety round they will dump all there energy in the target and not exit. Pricey but they work well. The law around here uses them to take out animals that don't belong in the city up to and including deer just for that reason no shoot throughs no skips. As for the missed shot then all bets are off you are responsible for what the round hits.

454Puma · « **Reply #22 on:** May 20, 2007, 07:08:45 PM »

PaulS
Can't give a link-Try search of GlockTalk forum! I do believe he was convicted of Murder!