Author Topic: A few questions on cast bullets and reloading (Read 2049 times)

mstake · « **on:** February 20, 2007, 02:28:24 AM »

I just loaded some cast bullets for the first time. i loaded some 158grain rn cast bullets for my 357mag BH. I am new to cast and i didn't no how much crimp i should use on them. Should i use less of a crimp because of it being a solfter bullet or does that matter. i have lee dies and set the crimp to 1/2 turn. I loaded them with 6 grains of unqiue cause i had ample surply sitting around. The load manual said that it should be around 1000fps. I am guessing a little lower then that. How easy is it to identify leading problems? If all goes will i would like to find some cast the will work well in my 44mag but i don't want no low end power loads to the 44. I would like a hunting load for it.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2007, 02:50:06 AM »

Are your cast bullets plain cast or are you using a gas check? If you want to cut down on leading problems, either load down the cast bullets without gas checks or use gas check bullets. As far as the crimp, I load up my bullets and shoot them with a little crimp, but if I see any movement in the bullets that are not fired in the cylinder, I make the crimp a little tighter. It is something you will have to play with.

Lone Star · « **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2007, 03:55:53 AM »

First, are the bullets you loaded cast or swaged? I ask only because some folks think that lead bullets are lead bullets. Cast bullets are usually harder than swaged and their loading characteristics can be different.

Second, preventing leading is not simply a matter of reducing the velocity of the load - it can be far more involved. (As a beginner the following may be more than you want to hear, but bear with me.) The most important factor is the fit of the bullet in your revolver. The bullet should be very close to the size of the cylinder throats, otherwise the powder gas will blow past the sides of the bullet and melt off droplets of lead - this is the primary cause of leading. Some revolvers will never shoot cast well because their dimensions are wrong - the throats can be smaller than the bore, guaranteeing leading. Veral Smith (see the LBT forum) was among the first to publicize this dirty little fact of life with cast bullets.

Next, your 6 grain load of Unique may not be the best choice....this depends on the hardness of the bullets you are loading. Alliant's web page shows 6.8 grains of Unique as maximum with a 158SWC at 1295 fps, so your load is close to max. If your bullet is very hard, then you will need a high pressure load to avoid leading - high pressures will expand the bullet and seal the bore against powder gas blow-by. Too-low pressures and hard bullets will cause leading.

Last, some leading will always occur, just as some copper fouling will always occur with jacketed loads. A light wash of lead hurts nothing, but when visible lumps begin to show up you need to remove it and decide what about your load is the cause. One of the best ways to remove leading quickly is to buy a package of ChoreBoy scouring pads at the local market - the copper variety, NOT the steel variety. Wrap a wad around a loose bore brush, wet with solvent and scrub the bore. This will remove the toughest leading quickly if you keep adding fresh, sharp pieces of pad, and will not damage the bore. I cringe at the use of steel wool in an accurate barrel.....

You may have no problems at all, time will tell. When you get things right you will love shooting cast. Let us know how your shooting goes.

.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2007, 04:11:03 AM »

Very good points Lone Star.

mstake · « **Reply #4 on:** February 20, 2007, 06:48:57 AM »

Thanks guys for the replys. To give you a few specs and answers back. The bullets i am loading right now is Meister Hard Cast Bullets. They do not have gas checks. I will be shooting them out of my ruger black hawk 6" barrel. I havn't messured my bore or throut and accuracy to the enth degree isn't much of a factor. just pick them up and wanted to try cast.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #5 on:** February 20, 2007, 09:58:31 AM »

Quote

The bullets i am loading right now is Meister Hard Cast Bullets.

You don't need gas checks on "hard" cast bullets in this application... As for a crimp, just crimp them enough so recoil isn't moveing the bullets in the case.

Load the cylinder, fire 5 rounds and take the 6th round back out of the cylinder to see if the bullet has moved any... If there's no movement, your crimp is fine..

When you decide to nail the accuracy down to the "best possible" then you can worry about other things like bullet diameter ect...

DM

Lone Star · « **Reply #6 on:** February 20, 2007, 11:20:07 AM »

Quote

When you decide to nail the accuracy down to the "best possible" then you can worry about other things like bullet diameter ect...

Except that bullet diameter has a major effect on leading - it isn't just about accuracy . If he has no leading, then no problem. If he does - then he'll have to pay attention.

.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 20, 2007, 11:30:16 AM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 20, 2007, 09:58:31 AM

Quote
The bullets i am loading right now is Meister Hard Cast Bullets.

You don't need gas checks on "hard" cast bullets in this application... As for a crimp, just crimp them enough so recoil isn't moveing the bullets in the case.

Load the cylinder, fire 5 rounds and take the 6th round back out of the cylinder to see if the bullet has moved any... If there's no movement, your crimp is fine..

When you decide to nail the accuracy down to the "best possible" then you can worry about other things like bullet diameter ect...

DM

When you are pushing cast bullets at higher velocities, leading will occur without gas checks. That is why gas checks are used, to minimize leading with hotter rounds.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #8 on:** February 20, 2007, 01:03:49 PM »

Quote

When you are pushing cast bullets at higher velocities, leading will occur without gas checks. That is why gas checks are used, to minimize leading with hotter rounds.

Did you notice i said: with "hard" cast bullets and "in this application"??

"If" we were talking rifles or higher velocities, i would have addressed the answer differently.. That goes for issues with the diameter too..

BTW, "If" you push "gas checked" lead bullets "fast enough" they will lead too...

DM

mstake · « **Reply #9 on:** February 20, 2007, 01:32:02 PM »

Hey guys one other thing i would like to throw your way is i picked these up as an impulse by at gander mountian. is this a good brand of cast bullet? I have noticed a few that looked like that had some seems from the molds still on them. should i clean that off the base or will that hurt. i like the price of them around 30$ for 500. we all no how long 100 rds last in pistol shooting. they go fast.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 20, 2007, 01:50:15 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 20, 2007, 01:03:49 PM

Quote
When you are pushing cast bullets at higher velocities, leading will occur without gas checks. That is why gas checks are used, to minimize leading with hotter rounds.

Did you notice i said: with "hard" cast bullets and "in this application"??

"If" we were talking rifles or higher velocities, i would have addressed the answer differently.. That goes for issues with the diameter too..

BTW, "If" you push "gas checked" lead bullets "fast enough" they will lead too...

DM

I am not trying to get into a debate with you, I was just stating facts. Even cast bullets pushed to 1000 fps can cause leading. Look at a .38 with lead bullets with no gas check going less than 800 fps and getting leading.

I am pushing 300 gr. hard cast gas checked bullets at 1750 to 1850 fps in my 460 Mag and I don't get any leading at all. Maybe a very slight trace, but nothing a brush won't take out.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #11 on:** February 20, 2007, 05:58:20 PM »

Quote

Hey guys one other thing i would like to throw your way is i picked these up as an impulse by at gander mountian. is this a good brand of cast bullet? I have noticed a few that looked like that had some seems from the molds still on them. should i clean that off the base or will that hurt.

I don't know anything about "that" brand of cast bullet, but i can tell you that if they are a HARD cast bullet (non gas check) and have a decent lube on them, they won't lead any "decent" bbl at a thousand fps or even a bit faster than that. If they lead, then they aren't hard enough, or you have a rough bbl. or poor lube..

When you try to scrape them with your thumbnail do they scrape easily??? Mine don't (i've been casting since the 60's) and i don't get any leading in my guns, and i never use a gas check in my 357's or 44's...

I would scrape any "flange" off them before loading them. They shouldn't have any flange on them, it's caused from not have the mould closed properly, or sometimes from haveing the temp of the mould/lead too high when casting.

DM

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #12 on:** February 21, 2007, 12:39:40 AM »

theres alot more to this then what even been posted yet. As to crimp my crimp strenght has alot to do with powder burning speed. Faster burning powders dont need as heavy of a crimp as say 110 does. Ive never seen though where a heavier crimp hurt anything as long as it isnt so heavy as to deform the bullet. Leading is a whole can of worms like was said alloy, gas checking and gun tolarances and velocity have alot to do with it. But there are other things to keep in mind. Hard lead isnt a cure for everthing and will at times cause leading instead of preventing it. If your guns tolarnces are sloppy sometimes softer lead will actuallyl lead less then hard. Gas checks help and ive never seen where they hurt other then there a pain in the but to install if your cranking out thousands of bullets but if your just doing say a hundred there no big deal. That brings us to bullet design some bullet designs are just prone to leading. Be it because there bevel based bullets, have a pour lube grove design or God just past his hands over them and said lead! Powder burning speed and temperature have alot to do with leading. First thing i tell someone thats having leading problems is to try another powder many times just that will fix it. Quality of bullet lube is a major thing. Most lubes will do fine at 1000 fps and as a matter of fact if everything else is perfect you can get away without it at those speeds but if it is needed it should be a quality lube and most comercial bullet manufactures either use a very hard lube with lots of parphin wax in it so the lube stays on the bullets during shipping and for the most part its junk. Other swadged bullets come with a wax coating on them that is about junk too. Im not a fan of lee alox but if your getting leading with comercail bullets sometimes a coating of alox will take care of it. Ive seen something as small as not being careful when seating bullets to insure there starting in straight cause leading. Most of my guns are set up right. Im pretty fussy about it and i cast my own bullets and make my own lube. If the chambers are out of spec there fixed if the barrel is rough its lapped If the throat is rough its recut because these are the most important things not only to leading but to accuracy and there all either able to be done by me or done fairly cheaply. If everything is right a bullet cast out of ww and plain based will do fine to about 1400 fps after that its better to gas check . Most commercial hard cast bullets are even harder then wws as alot of them a water dropped so could probably be pushed even faster in a GOOD gun. Me when i cast i look at what im going to do with the gun. If its over 1200 fps its usually gas checked and cast out of an alloy that goes about 15-18bhn such as #2 or 5050 ww/lyno between 1000-1200 mostly its ww with a little tin added and under 1000 its about anything from 5050ww/pure to range scrap.Another thing to look at is where the leading is accuring if its in the first half of the barrel its most likely a gun tolarance or bullet problem. If its in the last half of the barrel its most likely a lube or alloy problem. With one exception lube problems can show up on both ends as the lube not only had to lube but probably more importantly has to seal the gases from the powder buring from gas

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 21, 2007, 01:05:21 AM »

Lloyd, I don't cast. I get my bullets from Montana Bullet works and his bullets are hard. I have not had one problem with leading in any of my 460's or 500 Mags. Also Ranger Rick has some great bullets.
Now I have bought some cheap lead bullets to use in my .38 and got leading, but that was because the bullets were soft. I gave them away. I got tired of having to clean the lead out of the gun.

myronman3 · « **Reply #14 on:** February 21, 2007, 02:35:25 AM »

lloyd pretty much said it.

regarding the bullets with flange, i would toss them because if the mould wasnt closed (which is what causes it) then the odds are that bullet is out of round and may cause problems. maybe not, but why dink with it?

BIG Dog454 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 21, 2007, 05:17:48 AM »

I've cast bullets for years (since about 1965), using linotype mixed with lead (very hard) for rifles and pushed them as velocities up to 2250 fps without leading with GC have also pushed them up to 2000fps without GC and no leading. Most of the boolite that you purchase use a large concentration of lead and little hardener (linotype etc.) and cant be pushed to those velocities. IMHO, 1000 fps is about maximum velocity for purchased bullets UNLESS, your purchasing hard cast boolits OR, casting you own. Lyman #2, and most wheelweight lead boolits can be pushed to a max (in my revolvers), of about 1150 fps.; after that I need to use GC's. I have placed GC's upside down under 250 gr lead boolits and fired them in my .454 casull to 1450 fps and that worked very well.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** February 21, 2007, 09:39:29 AM »

you really nead to start putting together a bullet casting setup. With the amount you shoot and shooting those big 50 bullets it sure cant be cheap!!

Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 21, 2007, 01:05:21 AM

Lloyd, I don't cast. I get my bullets from Montana Bullet works and his bullets are hard. I have not had one problem with leading in any of my 460's or 500 Mags. Also Ranger Rick has some great bullets.
Now I have bought some cheap lead bullets to use in my .38 and got leading, but that was because the bullets were soft. I gave them away. I got tired of having to clean the lead out of the gun.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 21, 2007, 11:41:39 AM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on February 21, 2007, 09:39:29 AM

you really nead to start putting together a bullet casting setup. With the amount you shoot and shooting those big 50 bullets it sure cant be cheap!!
Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 21, 2007, 01:05:21 AM
Lloyd, I don't cast. I get my bullets from Montana Bullet works and his bullets are hard. I have not had one problem with leading in any of my 460's or 500 Mags. Also Ranger Rick has some great bullets.
Now I have bought some cheap lead bullets to use in my .38 and got leading, but that was because the bullets were soft. I gave them away. I got tired of having to clean the lead out of the gun.

I have to much on my plate right now. To add casting, I would not have time to come here and get harassed.

blhof · « **Reply #18 on:** February 22, 2007, 03:58:14 AM »

It takes a little attention, but it's not rocket science. I've been casting since the sixties; originally black powder then pistol and rifle. I use wheel wts with great success and minimal leading. A pot and mold are your investment; wheel wts can be had for free in most tire shops; as they have to pay a hasmat fee to have it carted away; and they charge by the lb... A sizer/luber is also a good investment although I pan lubed and shot unsized bullets in my 357 for years with excellent accuracy. You need to find the wt of bullet that works best in your gun first. My first 357 preferred 158gr semiwad cutters. They shot 1" groups at 50 yards all day. These were unsized Lee mold casts with pan lubing. Casting is what I do when it's too miserable to go shooting or hunting. A few hours casts enough bullets for months of shooting.

Mikey · « **Reply #19 on:** February 22, 2007, 09:58:21 AM »

Mstake: To try and answer your questions.....You're using a 158 gn rn commercially purchased bullet for use in the 38/357 magnum calibers, most likely sized to .358 and should be hard enough not to lead. You're going to use 6 gns of Unique, which is exactly midway between the 4-8 gn range for that bullet provided in my Lyman manual. That load should give you about the 1K'/sec you expected. I doubt that this load will lead up the barrel on your Blackhawk. Easy way to check is to look down your barrel after a couple of cylinders. Some dirt is to be expected, but not lots of visible crud.

Unique is a fast burning powder that should burn completely in your 6" bbl and not leave lots of powder residue. The bullets should be hard enough so as not to leave any visible lead stripping along the barrel, lead flaking in the grooves cause a 'really dirty' looking bore. Your velocity should be sufficient so as to make this a nice shooting load in your Blackhawk.

Your crimp - gentle but firm, nice uniform roll-over of the case mouth on the bullet just over the leading edge of the driving band. Don't need much, but clearly visible. Make certain the loaded rounds 'drop' into the chamber with a 'snick' or a 'thunk'. Then you know you the round is crimped enough to chamber properly.

For the 44 slugs you mentioned for hunting - I would first check Graybeard's sponsor list to see if we have any sponsors who make/sell what you might look for. I would also check Colorado Cast Bullets, Mt. Baldy Bullets and Beartooth Bullets.

I would just make sure my cylinder and chambers and barrel are clean before I head to the range with it. Take some cleaning equipment with you and run a dry patch down the chambers and bore every couple of cylinders full and see if you get any lead pieces or serious crud. That and looking down the barrel will tell you if you're leading. HTH. Mikey.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #20 on:** February 22, 2007, 10:34:07 AM »

dont be so dammed lazy!

I get up at 4 in the morning and go out and cast for an hour or two before work in morning! quote author=Redhawk1 link=topic=112337.msg1098348634#msg1098348634 date=1172097699]

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on February 21, 2007, 09:39:29 AM

you really nead to start putting together a bullet casting setup. With the amount you shoot and shooting those big 50 bullets it sure cant be cheap!!
Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 21, 2007, 01:05:21 AM
Lloyd, I don't cast. I get my bullets from Montana Bullet works and his bullets are hard. I have not had one problem with leading in any of my 460's or 500 Mags. Also Ranger Rick has some great bullets.
Now I have bought some cheap lead bullets to use in my .38 and got leading, but that was because the bullets were soft. I gave them away. I got tired of having to clean the lead out of the gun.

I have to much on my plate right now. To add casting, I would not have time to come here and get harassed.

[/quote]

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 22, 2007, 11:32:35 AM »

Lloyd Smale, you don't know how many time I was going to start, maybe I will get into it. But don't push me so hard next time. LOL

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #22 on:** February 22, 2007, 11:44:13 PM »

never thought id have to lecture you! Now if you dont have time your obviously wasting it on something that isnt as important as shooting. Like your wife kids house or dog! (well ill eliminate dog from that as they are just as important as shooting) So get divorced and get casting!!!!!!!!!! Sell your house and by a garage and put a cot in it!!!! (but for safety sake keep it at least 10 feet away from your casting bench and make sure your dog has access to a fresh air supply!!! Set this up preferably by a creak so you dont need to waste any time or money on a bathroom or shower. Put a shooting range on the property so that you have no use for a car or truck as there a waste of time and money and under no circumstances let a women on the the property as they will surely waste your time and money and your dog might want to leave with them!!!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 23, 2007, 01:11:06 AM »

Almost sounds like a country song. LOL

Drilling Man · « **Reply #24 on:** February 23, 2007, 05:01:37 AM »

Hey redhawk, if you spent 1/4th of your time casting bullets instead of here on GB, you couldn't climb to the top of the pile (mountain) of them...

DM

Racer X · « **Reply #25 on:** February 23, 2007, 01:05:30 PM »

Quote from: myronman3 on February 21, 2007, 02:35:25 AM

lloyd pretty much said it.

regarding the bullets with flange, i would toss them because if the mould wasnt closed (which is what causes it) then the odds are that bullet is out of round and may cause problems. maybe not, but why dink with it?

Pardon me asking, but what is flange?
Thanks.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** February 23, 2007, 01:16:14 PM »

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 23, 2007, 05:01:37 AM

Hey redhawk, if you spent 1/4th of your time casting bullets instead of here on GB, you couldn't climb to the top of the pile (mountain) of them...

DM

You got something there. But them I would let down all my fans. LOL

I know, what fans....
I am going to look into what I need. Wife's going to kill me...

Drilling Man · « **Reply #27 on:** February 23, 2007, 01:18:03 PM »

Quote

Pardon me asking, but what is flange?

When the bullet mould isn't closed all the way, a tiny bit of lead leaks between the halves. This leaves a bit of thin lead comeing off the bullet where the mould halves "didn't" come together.

Usually, you can just scrape it off with your finger nail, if not i wouldn't keep the bullet, even for practice...

DM

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #28 on:** February 24, 2007, 01:14:15 AM »

you need to get to the point im at. Theres enough guns and reloading and casting stuff comming and going in this house that the old lady has given up keeping track. I could buy 3 new guns and shed never know the differnce. I think shes afraid to go in the barn with all the lead and gunpowder out there and thats a GOOD THING as i think most grown men and even a few gun nuts would probably shake there head if they saw the piles of lead. Hundreds of thousands of bullets. Kegs of powder and the 6 dillon presses set up out there.

Quote from: Redhawk1 on February 23, 2007, 01:16:14 PM

Quote from: Drilling Man on February 23, 2007, 05:01:37 AM
Hey redhawk, if you spent 1/4th of your time casting bullets instead of here on GB, you couldn't climb to the top of the pile (mountain) of them...

DM

You got something there. But them I would let down all my fans. LOL I know, what fans....
I am going to look into what I need. Wife's going to kill me...

Drilling Man · « **Reply #29 on:** February 24, 2007, 04:48:05 AM »

Quote

6 dillon presses set up out there.

You got me beat!

All i have is an Auto Champ, a Green Machine, a Big Max, two Co-Ax's, one Rock Chucker, five SAS' and a Mighty Mite...

I "think" that's it? Unless you want to count the shotgun press' too???

DM