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Offline jh45gun

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Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« on: February 22, 2007, 04:29:37 AM »






 http://themartialist.com/0207/zumbo.htm


Quote:

Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA

By Phil Elmore


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Anyone at all aware of the discussions among the online gun culture on the Internet had little choice in mid-February, 2007, but to be aware, however dimly, of the controversy surrounding Jim Zumbo. The amusingly named Zumbo, a "sportsman" and hunting writer of some years' experience, wrote a column in his "blog" at Outdoor Life Magazine's website in which he characterized those rifles inaccurately termed semi-automatic "assault rifles" (so named for their magazine capacities and cosmetic similarities to select-fire military rifles) as the tools of terrorists, "terrifying" weapons for which he sees no use and which he would like to shun, Amish-style, not to mention ban by force of law. In making these comments, Zumbo draws a line between wholesome hunters like himself, and owners of guns that, quite frankly, scare him. How any hunter conversant in firearms can be 'terrified' of weapons whose cartridges are far less powerful than the hunting rifles -- excuse me, "sporting firearms" Zumbo himself carries in the woods when he's shooting animals defies reason, but then, I'll let him tell you in his own words:

I call them "assault" rifles, which may upset some people. Excuse me, maybe I'm a traditionalist, but I see no place for these weapons among our hunting fraternity. I'll go so far as to call them "terrorist" rifles. They tell me that some companies are producing assault rifles that are "tackdrivers."

Sorry, folks, in my humble opinion, these things have no place in hunting. We don't need to be lumped into the group of people who terrorize the world with them, which is an obvious concern. I've always been comfortable with the statement that hunters don't use assault rifles. We've always been proud of our "sporting firearms."

This really has me concerned. As hunters, we don't need the image of walking around the woods carrying one of these weapons. To most of the public, an assault rifle is a terrifying thing. Let's divorce ourselves from them. I say game departments should ban them from the praries and woods.
The gun culture online turned apoplectic when word spread of Zumbo's ill-considered editorial. Angry calls and e-mails began flooding in to Zumbo's various sponsors, including Remington, Gerber Legendary Blades, Cabelas, and the host of the blog itself, Outdoor Life Magazine. Most demanded that Zumbo immediately be dropped by sponsors, threatening a boycott -- which, among gun owners, is no small thing. Second Amendment zealots (of which I am proudly one) have long memories and they hold grudges. The firearms community nationwide, while large, is relatively small. A gun company, or any commercial endeavor related even indirectly to firearms, cannot survive if it gets a reputation for less than solid support of the Second Amendment. A few of the larger companies have weathered storms created by ill-considered business decisions or public comments on the Second Amendment, but they are the exceptions that prove the rule. The fact is that the threat of a boycott from supporters of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA) is no empty threat.



Fearing the ramifications of this, and perhaps pressured by Outdoor Life (if not simply afraid of the impact such widespread outrage would have on his commercial sponsors), Zumbo went back to his keyboard. With a sincerity matched only by former President Bill Clinton's lower-lip-chewing, finger-wagging denials "of sexual relations with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky," he typed the following "apology," in which he even invoked one of Bill Clinton's more famous excuses for ramming his own foot down his digestive tract -- that of being "tired." I'm not sure how a lack of sleep turns you into an ignorantly pontificating traitor to the United States Constitution, exactly, but the description is certainly applicable in both cases:

Someone once said that to err is human. I just erred, and made without question, the biggest blunder in my 42 years of writing hunting articles...

...Let me explain the circumstances surrounding that blog. I was hunting coyotes, and after the hunt was over and being beat up by 60 mph winds all day, I was discussing hunting with one of the young guides. I was tired and exhausted, and I should have gone to bed early. When the guide told me that there was a "huge" following of hunters who use AR 15's and similar weapons to hunt prairies dogs, I was amazed. At that point I wrote the blog, and never thought it through.

Now then, you might not believe what I have to say, but I hope you do. How is it that Zumbo, who has been hunting for more than 50 years, is totally ignorant about these types of guns. I don't know. I shot one once at a target last year, and thought it was cool, but I never considered using one for hunting. I had absolutely no idea how vast the numbers of folks are who use them.

I never intended to be divisive...

...What really bothers me are some of the unpatriotic comments leveled at me. I fly the flag 365 days a year in my front yard. Last year, through an essay contest, I hosted a soldier wounded in Iraq to a free hunt in Botswana. This year, through another essay contest, I'm taking two more soldiers on a free moose and elk hunt.

...Believe it or not, I'm your best friend if you're a hunter or shooter, though it might not seem that way. I simply screwed up...
So you see, Zumbo's your best friend if you support the Second Amendment. He was tired. It wasn't his fault. He took a a few of those people he called "terrorists" -- oh, excuse me, American soldiers -- on free hunts, so he must support the Second Amendment. Why, the man has a flag that he flies all year 'round; how could you dare question his patriotism?

At what point do ridiculous, backpedaling excuses like these start to sound like an anti-Semite squealing that he's not anti-Semitic, because he's got Jewish friends, or a Klan member protesting that he's not racist, because he goes out drinking with his black coworkers? Now, Zumbo is not a racist (I could no more assert that than I could claim he was a Martian, a Republican, or a dentist -- I don't know anything about the man's personal life or credentials other than what he wrote in his blog). What I can say with certainty and conviction, based on the same two blog post excerpted here, is that Zumbo is a hunting snob who sneers at other gun owners whose guns don't match his definition of a "sporting firearm."

Zumbo is, in short, a Fudd.

A Fudd is an ignorant hunter who sees no connection between his "sporting firearms" -- his hunting tools -- and his firearms rights. He is not a Second Amendment supporter; he may even be a Democrat. He loves to hunt, for whatever reason, but he has no respect and no use for "non-traditional" shooters. He can't imagine a rifle stock made of plastic being good for anything; he can't see a need or a "legitimate sporting purpose" for any weapon cosmetically similar to a military arm. He is, in short, an elitist who doesn't wish to associate with those gun owners he considers beneath him.



As the outrage over Zumbo's column spread, consequences started to be felt. The overwhelming grassroots pressure prompted posters in at least one Internet forum to declare "Zumbo" a verb, a good working definition of which might be "to inundate with grassroots support or opposition, as in the advocacy of a political issue." For my own part, I e-mailed all the sponsors I could think of, including Zumbo himself. I e-mailed Outdoor Life demanding he be let go. I even sent a snailmail letter with my business card to Jim Zumbo's Post Office box, because if I'm going to demand a man be fired, I'm damned well not going to do it anonymously.

The firestorm took its toll. Sponsor Remington severed all ties with the man in no uncertain terms. Cabelas, another sponsor, issued a statement saying that it was analyzing its contractual obligations -- the implication being, I think, that it was trying to determine if it could legally drop support for Zumbo. Yet another sponsor, Hi Mountain Jerky, sent e-mail saying explicitly that it did not support Mr. Zumbo's statements and that it "would not have supported [his hunting show on the Outdoor Channel] or had his endorsement on our packaging in the past had we known [his opinion]."

Outdoor Life Magazine finally deleted the Zumbo columns completely, dropping them down the Memory Hole while bleating in protest that it really wasn't anti-gun, not really. "Due to the controversy surrounding Jim Zumbo’s recent postings," the official announcement read, "Outdoor Life has decided to discontinue the 'Hunting With Zumbo' blog for the time being. Outdoor Life has always been, and will always be, a steadfast supporter of our Second Amendment rights, which do not make distinctions based on the looks of the firearms we choose to own, shoot and take hunting."

Outdoor Life's protestations notwithstanding, various friends of Zumbo were quick to leap to his defense, activating the Good Ol' Boy network of Fudds and other less than solidly Second Amendment-supporting hunters (and those others who are nominally shooters, but hardly defenders of the Second Amendment) who were only too willing to act as apologists for one of their own. It didn't matter that Zumbo's strident and self-righteous editorial was made from ignorance by his own admission in his "apology." No, all that mattered was another flannel-clad man with a wood-stocked rifle was being taken to task for his ignorance by owners of, and sympathizers to, the "terrorist rifles" Zumbo had so bravely decried. It was therefore necessary to start bitching and whining about how terribly unfair it was that Zumbo be held accountable for his statements.

Jim Shepherd of the Outdoor Wire commented on the controversy, saying in part that the Zumboing of Zumbo was the "shouting down" of "voices calling for reason and tolerance." This characterization does not emphasize harshly enough the fact that it is Zumbo who is responsible for creating, through his inflammatory and ignorant rhetoric, what Shepherd characterized as a "schism" -- the "ill-considered" creation of "good-gun, bad-gun categories" even now being used in Congress as "further evidence of the 'need' to regulate firearms -- all firearms -- more stringently."

I wonder if readers will get the impression from Shepherd's column (The Blog Heard 'Round The Industry: Jim Zumbo angers firearm enthusiasts, posted 20 February, 2007) that the "schism" is created by the implied 'intolerance' of those "firearms enthusiasts" angrily calling for Zumbo's metaphorical head on a virtual platter. If only those of us eager to protect the Second Amendment would be more 'reasonable,' one might conclude, there would be no "schism" and the gun-grabbers wouldn't be using our own divisive politics against us. The problem with this tempting conclusion is that it relieves of responsibility for his actions the man who created the problem, who indeed sought to create "good-gun, bad-gun" categories -- Zumbo himself, whose mind-numbing ignorance in writing the editorial in the first place is matched only by the insincerity of his subsequent apology for it.

"Gun Talk" host Tom Gresham, in a column titled "Tipping Point -- Suicide on the Web," concluded that Jim Zumbo "basically committed career suicide." He went on to explain that Zumbo "made a mistake from which there was no recovery. He wrote his blog while on a hunting trip. Just before going on the air, I checked the internet forums (fora?) and found a firestorm. People were livid, and with good reason. Some of the comments were clearly over the top, but most of them conveyed the rage that comes from a feeling of being betrayed by someone you thought of as one of your own."

Gresham, it seems, now regrets initial comments he made in an interview with Zumbo about the online controversy, comments in which he decried firearms owners' "willingness to eat our own." He was wrong to say that, Gresham now says, because such cannibal mistreatment of Zumbo was "not what was going on here, as I discovered when I got off the air...The outrage by gun owners is completely understandable. To put it in context, Zumbo's comments came only days after we saw the introduction of a bill in Congress to bring back the Clinton Gun Ban (the so-called 'assault weapons' ban). The final nail in the coffin was when-- Sunday afternoon -- the Brady Campaign (the leading group working to restrict gun rights) posted Zumbo's comments to several places on the net, saying, in effect, 'See, even the top hunting writer says these rifles have no legitimate use.' At that point, it was all over for Jim Zumbo."

Gresham correctly points out that the real problem here is not Zumbo's statements in and of themselves, ignorant as they were. No, the problem is that Zumbo's comments were almost immediately picked up by various anti-gun groups as evidence of support for their noble cause within the firearms community. Such gun-banning groups are always trolling for pet "experts," those Second Amendment quislings supposedly knowledgable of firearms whom they can trot out for media soundbites condemning certain kinds of "bad" firearms. This is a common tactic in the incremental push among such groups for total gun bans. First they go after "junk guns" and "Saturday Night Specials." Then they attack "assault weapons." Then they decry the proliferation of "sniper rifles." It doesn't matter that in all cases, these vilifying terms are lies and distortions meant to justify banning perfectly legitimate firearms. All that matters is that the gun banners can claim a victory and further their agendas. If they can do so while pimping a "firearms expert" who's happy to oblige them with fuel for their propaganda machine, they'll do so. It confers on them the veneer of legitimacy while disguising their true intentions, cloaking as "reasonable gun control measures" their long-term goal of banning all firearms.

The problem is, you see, that gun owners are a persecuted minority. The Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, which protects the inalienable and natural right of American citizens to keep and bear arms, has been under attack for years, incrementally chipped away, suppressed, infringed, and circumvented by activist judges and left-wing pressure groups almost since its inception. Some of the earliest infringements on the RKBA had to do with restrictions on bowie knives, Arkansas toothpicks, and other tools of dueling, a tradition seen as barbaric by more "civilized" governing Americans. Some time later, "Jim Crow" laws included restrictions on firearms ownership, such as requiring permits issued by local law enforcement, in an attempt to disarm black Americans. The 1930s and the 1960s saw restrictions on firearms that were politically motivated by attempts (ill-conceived and ineffective attempts, I might add) to prevent gun violence, born of national horror at crime and political assassinations.

This issue is so serious because it quite literally concerns life and death -- specifically, the lives and deaths of American citizens trying to protect their families and themselves from crime. Any attack on your firearms rights reduces or eliminates by force of law your right, your opportunity, and your ability to own and employ a firearm, the most useful tool for personal defense yet invented. Any statements that facilitate these attacks -- any lies, arguments, or quotes used by the firearms prohibitionists to attack your gun rights -- are therefore no less than an indirect attempt to decrease the value of your life. A man who presumes to tell you that you cannot own a firearm is not just pissing on the United States Constitution and the Second Amendment; he is presuming to tell you how much your life is worth. He is saying he sees no reason to make it easier for you to defend that life, or the lives of your family. He is declaring his supremacy over you by presuming to judge your life and its value. If there is a more tyrannical worldview, I don't know what it might be.

Whenever your firearms rights are attacked, therefore, you have no choice but to see that attack, ideologically, as an attempt to devalue your life. You are fully within your rights to speak out, loudly and persistently, in opposition to such presumption. You are also correct to be outraged that anyone would presume to tell you what your life is worth. There are varying degrees of outrage, however.

When irrational, fearful, ignorant people like the gun-banners at the Brady Campaign or the Violence Policy Institute or (whatever it's called) spit on your life and the lives of your family, empowering violent criminals by attempting to disarm you, it's not much of a surprise. Some people simply have this worldview and, motivated by a fear of guns and an ignorance of firearms technology, they lash out in all their impotent fury, a screaming mob made powerful by pandering lawmakers with no respect for the United States Constitution. Gun owners have pretty much come to expect this behavior. Those gun owners alive and active today have been coping with truly serious and deleterious infringements on their gun rights since the 1960s.

When an irrational furtherance of firearms prohibition is made from within the ranks of your fellow shooters, however, it is only just and it is perfectly understandable that one's outrage would be that much greater. That is what occurred. Jim Zumbo attacked the firearms rights of the very people with whom he hunts and socializes, the Fudds within their numbers notwithstanding. He betrayed the people he should have been working to support, the people whose rights are protected by the very Constitution one would hope Zumbo is lauding when he flies his precious flag 365 days a year. I would think such a patriotic American would understand why you can't then call for the banning of certain kinds of firearms without infuriating thousands of Second Amendment supporters and armed citizens, who see such statements as a betrayal of their rights and an attack on the values of their lives. But, no, Zumbo and his Fudd supporters don't grasp this. Instead they mewl and shriek that the First Amendment protects their right to further the destruction of the Second without consequence.

The First Amendment guarantees you the right to speak your mind without fear of legal repercussion. It is not, however, a shield behind which to hide in an attempt to avoid the unpopularity incurred when one voices unpopular opinions. It is not an all-purpose aegis from whose shelter you may demand license to offend anyone, anywhere, for any reason, unless you are willing to live with the consequences of having given offense. This is why having the courage of one's convictions requires courage. Stand up and say what is unpopular, by all means -- but don't then complain that you have become unpopular. In a free market, you are free to piss on your customers -- but don't complain when they take their business elsewhere.

Zumbo and the Fudds don't, won't, or can't understand that the Second Amendment is not about hunting, no matter how many times this is repeated vehemently by RKBA supporters. When Zumbo's hunting rifles are banned as "sniper rifles" (a tactic even now being employed by the gun banners to mischracterize any rifle with some glass mounted to it), perhaps he'll come to regret his comments -- but then again, he's already admitted to advocating the banning of firearms about which he is, in his own words and by his own admission, "totally ignorant." Ignorance is a tool of the firearms prohibitionists, the gun banners, the gun-grabbers, the antis. By any name, they are fighting to destroy the United States Constitution and the rights of all American citizens as protected by the Second Amendment. When the Fudds employ these tactics, they are every bit as guilty as the Brady Campaign and their ilk.

You Fudds have a choice. You can understand that by furthering the cause of the gun-grabbers, you are cutting your own throats. You can make the connection between your precious hunting trips and the firearms you take on them. Or you can continue to shoot your deer and your bears and whatever else, all the while working to make certain that, eventually, you'll no more be able to gun down an elk than you'll be able to shoot the rapist who is coming for your wife.

It's your choice. Make it now.

 
Said I never had much use for one, never said I didn't know how to use it.

Offline Tn Jim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2007, 05:02:01 AM »
You are exactly right. I don't ever remember reading anything in the 2nd ammendment protecting hunting. It is about protecting yourself, family and country. What part of "The right (not goberment granted priviledge) of the people (that's us, not the Nat'l Guard) to keep and bear arms (that includes "assault weapons") shall not be infringed" don't these goof balls understand? >:( ::)
Not all Muslims are terrorist, but oddly enough, all terrorist are Muslims.

Offline Sheila

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2007, 10:49:16 AM »
The damage to his carrier is far beyond repair, but the rest of us gun owners can find a way to repair it for the rest of us.
[


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Offline Heavy C

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2007, 12:07:54 PM »
It will require the same kind of loud and overwhelming response from gun owners to their representatives.  Some speculate this proposed bill won't go anywhere with the looming presidential election, but even that will be here and gone before you know it.  I can't say that the bill will or won't make progress, but the current political landscape sure does make it look promising that it will.   :(

Offline sparsons

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2007, 02:16:00 PM »
We are so far beyond the "right to bear arms" it isn't funny. When it was written they had no idea of planes, tanks, assault rifles, subs, ect.  When it was written the common person was the army and the common rifle was the rifle of choice for the army (people of USA).To carry "the right to bear arms" into the present and to fulfill what the writers of it had in mind is a pipe dream. To enable the people to protect themselves against  abuse of big government today every local community would need their own air force, marines, navy, and army-I don't see that happening in the near future do you? So you think the right to bear arms is freedom that exists today? Try to organize a rebellion. Use your right to bear arms as the excuse for your cache of semi-autos and other assault rifles and see where it lands you.  I am not for gun control, California comes to mind, but I do not want semi-autos and the like in the hands of the drunk next door, or the gang leader downtown. Common sense goes along way. Keep bringing up the old argument, "right to bear arms" as the main reason for rifles that we know are meant for the mass killing of people and we will end up with a "no gun" law.  Those guns and the ammo are money makers and image makers for the companies.  Laws are being set up to stop silly ways of thinking. States on the east coast are outlawing any hunting rifle .50 cal and above. Other states are outlawing the amount of ammo that can be stored for each gun--some states say only 10 rounds per gun (so much for semis). Our right to own guns are being taken away because we cant see the forest for the trees.  Some cities have enacted no transportation laws that make it almost impossible to legally handle your gun except inside your house.  Responsible ownership and use of guns is a must.  When  gun owners refuse to police themselves and speak out for what is or is not acceptable in today's society then government will rule. Right or wrong the government will listen to the fear of the people--not the shouting of gun owners who want and need rooms of guns to feel like a man.



Offline billy_56081

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2007, 02:46:22 PM »
Kill Da Wabbit.  >:(
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Tn Jim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2007, 03:20:30 PM »
OK Sparsons, answer me this. When the first ammendment was written the only thing that existed was the quill pen and the printing press. Your logic says tv, radio and the Internet shouldn't get 1st ammendment priviledges beacuse they didn't exist yet. If "WE" are the militia exactly what type of weapons should we have? 22 single shots? Muskets?  The only reason we haven't lived in a dictatorship for the past 50 years IS the 2nd ammendment! As far as the goberment listening to the fear of the people, thats a crock. They only listen to $$$ and their own twisted logic about their idea of a utopia, and what the people want be damned. They fear anything that threatens their power, and that is our "Right to Keep and Bear Arms".

P.S. I hope you don't take this as a personel flame. I didn't mean it as such. :)
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Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2007, 03:45:38 PM »
Sparson, I think you must have gotten lost bud.  You must have been looking for the PETA forum not the GBO forum.  If we allow the Gov. to start telling us what guns are "bad" and what guns are "good" how long do you think it will be before they tell us all guns are "bad guns".   Did you happen to read the post about the pore sod in England who was busted for possessing knives that he actually needs for his job?  Our individual preferences in firearms is inconsequential on the war to keep us from being completely disarmed.  United we can win, divided we will surely lose. 
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Offline sparsons

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2007, 04:27:29 PM »
Tn Jim I believe you made my point in a back door sort of way. The "right to bear arms" was a protection for the people when one had a level playing field. For the most part both the citizen and government had equally powerful firepower.  The level playing field has not existed for quite along time. The only way for the level playing field to come in to play is for us to have our own navy air force, ect like I said.  My logic as you say would in fact allow the use of more powerful weapons in the hand  of the local people in order to insure the defense of the people against an out of hand government. This we know will never happen which in effect makes the argument for the "right to bear arms" null and void for the purpose for which it was written. Hey Brett read what was written not what you think in your heated state you think was written. I do believe I stated I was NOT in favor of governmental gun control. I DO believe I stated examples of various states that were enacting laws of curbing the use of guns.
    For the sake of staying on track I have no interest about some guy in England getting in trouble with knives. Their laws and our laws are not the same--clue there Brett we fought a war in order NOT to be under their rule. Your analogy seems pointless since we are talking about the rules and laws of The United States of America as they pertain to use of guns.  I think you must have gotten lost yourself since you think England and knives have any relatiion at all to guns and the USA.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2007, 04:51:25 PM »
First off.....read the Madison debates and the federalist papers.....

The founding fathers feared a standing army.  They feared it would be used against them.  They were wise men who understood the nature of power unchecked.  They knew tyranny from both the government and from the church.  That's why they specified militia, and not army.   Jefferson and Madison feared that the government would do just exactly what it has done....i.e intruded into the lives of the common people and curtailed liberty.

I suggest, that James Madison, among others, took notes regarding the debate surrounding the creating of a constitution.  Our founding fathers talked about what should be in the constitution and for what reasons.  Just spend some time, do some basic research, and the intent of each aspect of the constitution will be revealed.

Trust me when I tell you what the founding fathers sighed up for sure ain't what we got today.

Yea....they lived 200 years ago, but their wisdom of the nature of man and of government astounds me....I stand in awe of their knowledge.  I believe it foolish to think history doesn't repeat itself.  I also think Marxist theory that society evolves in a circle, from capitalism, to socialism, to communism, and back to capitalism might be correct.  Europe is deeply into socialism, the former soviet union is moving very close to capitalism after 70+ years of communism, and it sure looks like China is moving slowly toward a capitalist economy.  So where is the US?  All ten planks of the communist manifesto seem to be met, which, from a Marxist point of view would indicate that the US has become socialist, or at least what Marx described as the steps to socialism.

http://laissez-fairerepublic.com/TenPlanks.html

If Hillary is elected, the US will soon look very much like europe (socially, politically and economically).

As far as gun control, when you draw a line and say this particular type of gun is good and this one is bad the line is easily moved.   This is the same thinking that has undermined individual liberty for some time now.  Go burn a pile of leaves in your back yard without a burn permit and see how much liberty you really have........

Lets lock up the people who commit crimes but lets not make us all criminals.

Lets bring back personal responsibility and quit making excuses for criminal behavior.

I'll let you live your life and stay out of your affairs but expect you to do the same.

Liberty is what the founding fathers treasured......

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2007, 05:02:11 PM »
So an unorganized general populace armed primarily with small arms is no threat to a large organized government backed army?  Then how is it we left Vietnam with our tails tucked between our legs.  And tell me why the $^$* are we still in Iraq getting no where fast after turning two thirds of it into ruble in the first few days of the war with our superior weaponry?

I'm sorry if you don't see any relation between England's laws and ours but I think I'm not alone in seeing the writing on the wall.  The only thing which differentiates our government from that of England's is our Bill of Rights.  If we allow our government to reinterpret them and or declare whichever ones don't suite their agenda "null and void" then we will find ourselves under sovereign rule just like our brothers on the other side of the big pond.

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Offline sparsons

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2007, 06:15:06 PM »
Brett my whole point was to see if any one can come up with any reason why we should be allowed to own guns. In the social climate of today the use of the 2d amendment can easily be used against the gun owner.  With the political scene so volatile and terrorism on most people minds the  idea of "bearing arms" against your government could be looked upon as down right hostile and un-american, second amendment or not.  If one was brought before congress and asked "Why do you believe you should be allowed to own a gun?" what would be the proper response?  Because I have a right to own one because of the 2d. amendment?  The next question would be something like "do think you have the right to attack the government of people by the people for the people?" Just in case this sounds silly remember history--Hollywood was brought under fire because some "might" have been or associated with the dreaded "reds".  Not long ago baseball players were called in before Congress because they "might" have taken a certain illegal pill. Again I cant accept the analogy of Nam and the middle east. That is apple and oranges.  Is there a plan B out there for the right own rifles? As it stands now we almost have to give up our first born just to apply  to buy the gun.  I am not in any way in favor of government control. My fear is that the use of the second  amendment may come back to bite us in the butt.  I would like to be able to say " I have the right to possess this Gun because it come under my right of "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  I don't think that would fly.   My biggest fear is that Congress may rule the 2d amendment as obsolete. The make up of Congress does not give me much hope and the upcoming Presidental Election is cause for concern.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2007, 06:38:00 PM »
Brett my whole point was to see if any one can come up with any reason why we should be allowed to own guns. In the social climate of today the use of the 2d amendment can easily be used against the gun owner.  With the political scene so volatile and terrorism on most people minds the  idea of "bearing arms" against your government could be looked upon as down right hostile and un-american, second amendment or not.  If one was brought before congress and asked "Why do you believe you should be allowed to own a gun?" what would be the proper response?  Because I have a right to own one because of the 2d. amendment?  The next question would be something like "do think you have the right to attack the government of people by the people for the people?" Just in case this sounds silly remember history--Hollywood was brought under fire because some "might" have been or associated with the dreaded "reds".  Not long ago baseball players were called in before Congress because they "might" have taken a certain illegal pill. Again I cant accept the analogy of Nam and the middle east. That is apple and oranges.  Is there a plan B out there for the right own rifles? As it stands now we almost have to give up our first born just to apply  to buy the gun.  I am not in any way in favor of government control. My fear is that the use of the second  amendment may come back to bite us in the butt.  I would like to be able to say " I have the right to possess this Gun because it come under my right of "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness."  I don't think that would fly.   My biggest fear is that Congress may rule the 2d amendment as obsolete. The make up of Congress does not give me much hope and the upcoming Presidental Election is cause for concern.

Keep in mind that the Constitution & Bill of Rights is NOTa breathing or floating document, despite what Global Warming Gore might say. Congress cannot declare it different than what it is, nor allowed unless the people become too ignorant to know what it says (going that way) &
too weak to take a stand(getting there).
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2007, 02:22:41 AM »
The 2nd amendment is there to keep the government by the people for the people! >:(
99% of all Lawyers give the other 1% a bad name. What I find hilarious about this is they are such an arrogant bunch, that they all think they are in the 1%.

Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2007, 02:37:59 AM »
" I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a valid answer until we allow our politicians and lawmakers to tell us otherwise.  The Second Amendment was put in place to guarantee we will retain those rights. 
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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2007, 03:39:55 AM »
" I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is a valid answer until we allow our politicians and lawmakers to tell us otherwise.  The Second Amendment was put in place to guarantee we will retain those rights. 



You have all the rights money can buy.   That's why Scott Peterson's in jail and OJ, Micheal Jackson, and Robert Blake walked.....

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2007, 05:55:14 AM »
You have all the rights money can buy.   That's why Scott Peterson's in jail and OJ, Micheal Jackson, and Robert Blake walked.....

Very sad and very true VC.
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Offline DWTim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2007, 06:19:16 PM »
We are so far beyond the "right to bear arms" it isn't funny. When it was written they had no idea of planes, tanks, assault rifles, subs, ect.  When it was written the common person was the army and the common rifle was the rifle of choice for the army (people of USA).

When it was written, there were handguns, long guns, and ordnance like explosives and artillery pieces. They didn't have tanks or planes, but they had cavalry and warships. Conspicuously absent from the language is anything but "arms". The small arms available to the people were equivalent to those that were employed by militaries, or better, if one was wealthy. There was no electronic communication then, but I note that no one is jumping up and down demanding that the First or Fourth Amendments no longer apply because of the damage that can be done when information can be transmitted at nearly the speed of light from modern surveillance and communication equipment.


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To carry "the right to bear arms" into the present and to fulfill what the writers of it had in mind is a pipe dream. To enable the people to protect themselves against  abuse of big government today every local community would need their own air force, marines, navy, and army-I don't see that happening in the near future do you?

The authors of the Constitution had in mind a long history of England's arming of her commoners with current small arms of the time, and also the reasons why one faction or another attempted to disarm its political or religious enemies. They probably realized, like their British ancestors, that it was neither economical nor practical to make commoners the equivalent of regular military units. But they also realized that even though professional soldiers were far better fighters (and better equipped), that such an action would still be extremely costly, since the commoners have always far outnumbered the elites. It also doesn't make any sense to destroy the people who are actually the source of revenue for the government. That's why disarmament always precedes imposition, instead of arriving immediately at outright destruction.


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So you think the right to bear arms is freedom that exists today? Try to organize a rebellion.

It exists today as a privilege, unfortunately. And no thanks on the rebellion. Revolutions are for Marxists. We still have the power of the vote and quasi-private property rights, but we have to get over using our votes for petty things like satisfying our emotions by punishing with regulation those we just don't like, or by voting ourselves benefits from the treasury.


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Use your right to bear arms as the excuse for your cache of semi-autos and other assault rifles and see where it lands you.

Considering that the government isn't currently threatening my person, they would have every right to be suspicious if I informed them that I was using the threat of deadly force to influence policy change. But I'm not, and the use of the word "assault" in front of "rifle" implies that the person behind it is a violent criminal who is about to assault his fellow citizens. Kind of like Zumbo's "terrorist rifles" implies that the owner is a terrorist, seeing as a chunk of metal is neither capable of assaulting or terrorism on its own.


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I am not for gun control

Sorry, please reconsider. You exhibit two of the classic symptoms: The belief in the good gun / bad gun classification, as evidenced by your use of the term "assault rifles". This also implies that you believe in animism, since you are assigning human qualities to a non-living chunk of materials that someone dug up out of the ground.


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California comes to mind, but I do not want semi-autos and the like in the hands of the drunk next door, or the gang leader downtown.

None of the current gun control laws seem to be effective against John Q. Gangsta. The gun charges are usually tossed out in court when he's caught, and honestly, I probably own more firearms that he does, yet I'm not driving around and shooting people to death. Clearly something is amiss. There are other vectors that are present in high-crime areas, and interestingly enough, firearm availability is often much lower in those areas.


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Common sense goes along way.

Common sense would point out that lower rates of firearm ownership is in some way related to higher crime rates. But that's if we ignore all the other factors, which we are.


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Keep bringing up the old argument, "right to bear arms" as the main reason for rifles that we know are meant for the mass killing of people and we will end up with a "no gun" law.

That's if you exclude the defense of your own property and family from criminals and predators, competitive sports, target shooting for fun, and hunting. By the same token, we should outlaw the production and sale of TNT, since its major use has been the mass killing of people. It is far more effective at this than any small arm. Let's set that aside, though. Why can't I purchase one just to decorate my living room wall?


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Those guns and the ammo are money makers and image makers for the companies.  Laws are being set up to stop silly ways of thinking.

If laws are being passed to mandate a particular way of thinking, you'd better worry a little less about imposing your opinion on complete strangers (who are not criminals), and a little more about those thought-crime laws.


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States on the east coast are outlawing any hunting rifle .50 cal and above.

I live in Connecticut. It is already illegal to hunt with a rifle in any caliber larger or more powerful than .22 Long Rifle, unless you have private land, are hunting the two allowed species, and meet a myriad of other regulatory requirements. In a perfect country, we would behave like peaceful, law-abiding freemen, and question anyone's attempt to make us justify the exercising of an Inalienable Right, but that is not the case, so the exclusion of an ever-increasing number of small arms puts us in a precarious position. If we allow only hunting as the reason for possession, and not an Inalienable Right, then our government need only narrow the list of appropriate arms until we technically have no choices, as happened in England in 1671. Hunting is a privilege, especially on publicly-owned lands (of which there are far too many), but let's not retreat to the edge of that cliff without first giving a good challenge on solid ground.


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Other states are outlawing the amount of ammo that can be stored for each gun--some states say only 10 rounds per gun (so much for semis).

This should show in no uncertain terms why retreating on the hunting justification issue allows the opposition to do an end run around your rights. What good is a right you are physically incapable of exercising in a practical situation? (I suppose you could always hit an intruder with the rifle, but I'd rather have a Long Lee for that, rather than a 6 lb. AR copy.)


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Our right to own guns are being taken away because we cant see the forest for the trees. Some cities have enacted no transportation laws that make it almost impossible to legally handle your gun except inside your house.

Don't forget to include our right to bear arms as well, and the part about their necessity for the security of a free state. I can well recognize what is going on, and it has a lot to do with capitulation on the finer points about an arm, such as its specifications, the color of its finish, its accessories and its use.


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Responsible ownership and use of guns is a must. When gun owners refuse to police themselves and speak out for what is or is not acceptable in today's society then government will rule. Right or wrong the government will listen to the fear of the people--not the shouting of gun owners who want and need rooms of guns to feel like a man.

What constitutes refusal to "police" oneself? I've never used any of my guns to coerce people into rape, assault them, rob them or murder them. My rap sheet includes two expired emissions citations, one ticket for driving too fast, and one parking ticket. If by "police", you mean blindly follow the demands of those who know next to nothing about small arms, and accept responsibility for crimes that I did not commit, then we might as well fight until we are subjugated by the state, since the end result will be the same. The will of the majority doesn't override Inalienable Rights, that's the whole point of the Bill of Rights. "Our" amendment occupies a conspicuous position as number two on the list. Must have been important. I am also insulted by your indictment that my guns are a replacement for my genitals. I don't give credence to the personal conjectures of a cigar-chomping, sex-obsessed Austrian cokehead. It's also irksome that popular culture continues to propagate Freud's dream interpretation nonsense, but not his estimation that "a fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity." I like guns for the same reason I like electronics, books and petunias.

Sadly, this demonstrates exactly why it is so hard to argue a pro-gun position. I have been told to change my approach, but I've come full circle on this; I couldn't possibly argue in the abstract when the "antis" can only respond emotionally. It's impossible. Sorry, I can't buy into that viewpoint, and neither should you if you are against gun control. All I can say is that by exercising my rights, I am diminishing none of yours. Any attempt to diminish that right will be met with suspicion on my part.


Offline Mikey

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2007, 01:58:28 AM »
Ramos1212:  The loud and overwhelming response has been sent and acknowledged.  Zumbo has been dropped by every sponsor and Remington has backpedalled so far they will probably be selling muzzle loaders next week. 

The American sportsman has channelled his rage into a very effective economic tool.  It worked against Smith and Wesson a few years ago and don't think the shooting industry has forgotten it.  And don't for a moment think our political antagonists have forgotten how powerful the sportsmans's dollar is, and can be. 

There have been a few liver-lipped liberal columnists who bemoaned the very public and incredibly swift 'beheading' of Zumbo by the American shooter and hunter in the 3 days since his article came out and you had dang well better believe the klinton kommunists and American neo-nazis know all about it.  They use it as a measure to see how far they could push an issue.  The Brady Bunch's determination of what now consitutes an assault rifle and the unnecessary power of such American antiquities as the 30-30 is just their attempt at continuing the 'expert' opinion of someone like Zumbo but I think they realize they are going too far and won't be accepted.

sparsons - the whole point of a sole reason for the 2nd Amendment is not a 'WAS', it 'IS' and continues to be regardless of the 'social' climate which is what you consider to be the driving force behind our freedoms.  You just made the Zumbo (as in fatal) mistake of using 'the social climate of today' as a basis for gun ownership and the freedom of the right to keep and bear arms inour own defense.  It isn't about a social climate of the day or about hunting,  and if you fail to understand these basic tenets you simply fail to understand the true basis for your rights and freedoms.  You have lost your own arguement.  You may now start wearing your underwear on the outside of your clothing so we can be certain that in today's 'social climate' you have not crapped your pants.

victorcharlie - the use of the term 'rights' as in Constitutional rights doesn't mix very well with the hollywoodism of todays courts and our 'rights' have nothing to do with how a hollywood dumbstruck court views a criminal action. 

That's JMHO.  Mikey.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2007, 02:55:24 AM »
victorcharlie - the use of the term 'rights' as in Constitutional rights doesn't mix very well with the hollywoodism of todays courts and our 'rights' have nothing to do with how a hollywood dumbstruck court views a criminal action. 
That's JMHO.  Mikey.

In my mind, Scott Peterson didn't have access to the same defense as any of the celebs, as he didn't have the resources (money) available to hire the best set of liars in the country.  Economics play a large part in who winds up behind bars, where they are housed if convicted, and how long they serve.

The courts set the tone for law enforcement and in todays environment, the forth amendment is the one that has taken the biggest hit.  The patriot act gives the federal government power and justification for wire taps, sneek and peek searches, and no knock warrants.

Once you find yourself behind bars, the chances of a conviction being overturned on appeal is slim at best. 

Probable cause has expanded to the point that in most cases a warrant isn't required for a search in a high amount of cases.   Probable cause for a search in a National forest is the fact you display an NRA sticker on your windshield.  An empty beer can found in plain sight in a car can be reason to assume probable cause.  With the suspension of Habeas Corpus, you can now be detained for an indefinite period of time without being charged with a crime and without legal representation or due process.

The courts, which should provide a balance of power, allow this to happen. 

IMO there isn't very many people in government interested in protecting and expanding individual rights and allow our constitutional rights to be eroded.

Who's working for the interest of the common man?



"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2007, 03:29:33 AM »
I keep thinking that I am MY first line of defense.
I will count on protection when it arrives.
I assume them to know where the paperwork needed is if they do not arrive when it is needed before I have need to protect myownself and the lives of those in danger.
That said--I still believe all that this idiot was intending too say was directed at hunting and guns/rifles/wepons that HE considered appropriate for this sport--He wandered in his thinking and wording.
I have said this before--ONE can hunt with anything that ONE wishes, well, as far as I am concerned. Hunt rabbits with a bazooka if YOU wish.
Now, common sense--which is not all that common--dictate what caliber and what kind is appropriate. It would be hard too keep count of dead rabbits shot by a bazooka, IMO.
There are reasons, of public safty--for the hunter as well as the public--why there are restrictions placed in many cases. A .50BMG sniper rifle by Barrett comes quickly to mind, when hunting in a national forrest, as a bad error in judgement.
On your own 20,000 acres with no one but yourself--be anything you want with anything that satisfies the desire--otherwise, use some sense.
It is because some BUBBA'S have no common sense that restriction have been necessary. I recall why local boys got upset at a man using dynamite in a relativly small lake to fish with. Something about other folks being around.
Blessings 
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Tn Jim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2007, 04:13:30 AM »
DWTim, that was an excellent post. Many well made points. You brought up the term "assault rifles". I think that one was produced by the media to cause fear and loathing of these rifles and nothing more. From now on, how about a name that is more benign and closer to the truth? How about "homeland defense rifles"? Just a thought. ;D
Not all Muslims are terrorist, but oddly enough, all terrorist are Muslims.

Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2007, 04:33:41 AM »
Agreed, that was an excellent post DW.  It's good to see someone approach a hot topic such as gun control with logic rather than emotion.   
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Offline DWTim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2007, 06:22:16 AM »
Thanks for the kind words, folks. For those who still do not believe that the Founders and their contemporaries were not thinking of the future, here are the words of Sir William Blackstone:

  "[Self-defense] considers that the future process of law is by no means an adequate remedy for injuries accompanied with force; since it is impossible to say to what wanton lengths of rapine or cruelty outrages of this sort might be carried, unless it were permitted a man immediately to oppose one violence with another. Self-defense, therefore, as it is justly called the primary law of nature, so it is not neither can it be in fact, taken away by the law of society."

It appears to me that he believed the only limit to violence was the imagination of man, and the only defense against it would be oppose it with like violence, and immediately. A "like" violence would not be my fists against a rifle carried by my attacker.


Offline wolfsong

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2007, 05:55:56 PM »
Tn Jim I believe you made my point in a back door sort of way. The "right to bear arms" was a protection for the people when one had a level playing field. For the most part both the citizen and government had equally powerful firepower.  The level playing field has not existed for quite along time. The only way for the level playing field to come in to play is for us to have our own navy air force, ect like I said.  My logic as you say would in fact allow the use of more powerful weapons in the hand  of the local people in order to insure the defense of the people against an out of hand government. This we know will never happen which in effect makes the argument for the "right to bear arms" null and void for the purpose for which it was written. Hey Brett read what was written not what you think in your heated state you think was written. I do believe I stated I was NOT in favor of governmental gun control. I DO believe I stated examples of various states that were enacting laws of curbing the use of guns.
    For the sake of staying on track I have no interest about some guy in England getting in trouble with knives. Their laws and our laws are not the same--clue there Brett we fought a war in order NOT to be under their rule. Your analogy seems pointless since we are talking about the rules and laws of The United States of America as they pertain to use of guns.  I think you must have gotten lost yourself since you think England and knives have any relatiion at all to guns and the USA.


So the "playing field" is no long level, so we should all just turn in our guns because TRTKABA is "null and void"? So because we're out gunned we should just surrender? Like no other team in baseball should bother to show up and play the NY Yankees because Steinbrenner has deeper pockets and can load up on "big guns"? And before you dismiss my analogy like you have with others here, you're the one who first used an sports analogy. I wonder to myself about how many of our military and police personel  would come over to the people's side should things get that bad in this country. And using air strikes and tanks in our own country would be somewhat counter productive, seems to me. Go ahead and throw in the towel, Sparsons. And reread the 2a. It was put in place to give a means of protecting ourselves from tyranny of an oppressive government".A government of the people, for the people, by the people" does not mention "against the people". I do doubt that us mere citizens with our myriad small arms could defeat the military of the government, but I'd be willing to wager that enough damage and resistance could be mustered to bring about an awaking and some serious changes within the government leaders (read: politicians). I think you're way off the mark, here. And I think you qualify as an eleitist, defeatist Fudd. Peace and God bless, Wolfsong.
GOD BLESS AMERICA AND MAY GOD HELP CALIFORNIA

Offline Dave Weiss

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2007, 11:40:39 PM »
I'm confused, it's ok to trade our freedom of speech for our right to bear arms?

>>>===> Dave
Hunt hard, shoot fast and trust your dog.

Offline Brett

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2007, 01:01:41 AM »
I'm confused, it's ok to trade our freedom of speech for our right to bear arms?

>>>===> Dave

No one here ever said Zumbo didn't have the right to publish what he did we're just saying that as a self professed "hunter/sportsman" he's an idiot for publishing what he did because it could hurt all of us who enjoy guns in the long run.
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Offline DWTim

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2007, 06:34:40 AM »
For an example of a likely violation of the First Amendment, go here:

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/501165p-422541c.html

Not the best example, and probably isn't a constitutional challenge, unless the New York constitution contains something similar to:

"Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom of speech"

The idea, though is that it cannot have the force of law behind it. Telling someone to shut up is therefore not a violation of someone's rights. Jim Zumbo still retains his right to tell us to "shut up" in return.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2007, 11:52:06 AM »
Zumbo has every right to say and publish his opinion.

I have the right to let his publisher and other business associates know that by publishing his opinion cost them my business.

It's all about the Benjamin's fellows.....

Money talks.......

As for the violation of the first amendment.......

This is another feel good law that has no basis and won't stand constitutional review if it ever gets to that point.

I looked up the "N" work in the online dictionary......it used to say it was a stupid person.  It has been redefined to specifically address people of color.

Think they'll ban the use of the word "cracker" also?




"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Calling All Fudds: The Zumboing of Zumbo and the RKBA
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2007, 03:28:19 PM »
No
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.