Author Topic: Anybody Want an Original? (Read 3456 times)

CrufflerSteve · « **on:** February 22, 2007, 10:10:28 AM »

on Ebay Now. Only $240,000!

http://tinyurl.com/2xt4u7

I hope it ends up in a museum. It looks like the sights were removed long ago but this is the only Mountain Rifle carriage left. Until now, I thought there were only some carriage irons remaining.

Steve

Artilleryman · « **Reply #1 on:** February 22, 2007, 11:18:02 AM »

Go to the following website for more photos and a video. There are some interesting differences between the carriage for this gun and the Mountain Howitzer carriage (Prairie model). Also not the differences in the wheels for the carriage and the limber.

http://www.freewebs.com/seahawktrading/

Will Bison · « **Reply #2 on:** February 22, 2007, 12:01:33 PM »

OOPS I just hit the "Buy Now Button" by mistake.

How do I get out of this hole?

?

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #3 on:** February 22, 2007, 01:17:53 PM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on February 22, 2007, 11:18:02 AM

Go to the following website for more photos and a video. There are some interesting differences between the carriage for this gun and the Mountain Howitzer carriage (Prairie model). Also not the differences in the wheels for the carriage and the limber.

http://www.freewebs.com/seahawktrading/

That's why modern repros use an adaptation of the 1st model prairie carriage. I have the Antique Ordnance book for this cannon and it has a long list of what is not known about the carriage. There had been two carriages in some museum where some pictures were taken. In WWII the cannon & carriages were donated to a scrap drive. Some of the carriage irons were salvaged but this is the first complete carriage seen since then.

One further unknown is the sights. I don't believe any of the barrels have rear sights. The front sight was a tall spike. Chapman & sons adapted a Dahlgren elevating blade sight as a best guess. This cannon looks like it lost its sights long ago but it is way, way too valuable to fire.

It is great to have a piece of history turn up like this. I hope it ends up in a good home.

Steve

Cannonball · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2007, 01:18:39 PM »

I don't understand why the government doesn't buy it back. If it sells internationally, it's a piece of history gone from the U.S. $:-\$

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2007, 02:17:39 PM »

If I had the $240,000 I would own it. It is a RARE one of a kind cannon and still in private hands.

The Ethyl Corporation should purchase it for their restored Tredegar Iron works.

Or Maybe I can mortgage the house? Much to think about?

GGaskill · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2007, 02:37:46 PM »

CPT Ed,
How about making this a personal assignment to contact Ethyl Corp and at least make them aware of its availability.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #7 on:** February 22, 2007, 02:49:47 PM »

George,

I had dealings with them 35 years ago when I sold them a 10-pdr CSA Parrott rifle.
At that time they beat me up on the reasonable $5k price.

What do you think they would do here on this one???

But you are right they should be notified. It belongs in a USA Museum.

GGaskill · « **Reply #8 on:** February 22, 2007, 02:57:02 PM »

One of the benefits of capitalism is that both parties have to agree on a selling price, not just the more powerful one. The owner doesn't have to sell if he doesn't like the price. It should be his choice to make.

(The following should be taken somewhat tongue-in-cheek):

As far as pushing for the lowest price, I would too. After all, the original owner didn't pay anything for it except his years of military service (obviously no value to that.) He should just give it veteran-to-veteran to me.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #9 on:** February 22, 2007, 03:19:30 PM »

quote CrufflerSteve's
"One further unknown is the sights. I don't believe any of the barrels have rear sights. The front sight was a tall spike. Chapman & sons adapted a Dahlgren elevating blade sight as a best guess. This cannon looks like it lost its sights long ago but it is way, way too valuable to fire."

If you look real close at the breech you will see three dots that from a triangle, which may be where a rear sight mount was attached.

Cpt Ed · « **Reply #10 on:** February 22, 2007, 03:23:35 PM »

Yes George capitalism is wonderful and I always try and push for the best possible price.

My only exception to this theory is when the item is undervalued to start with I pay their price.

According to the Tredegar Iron Works web site, it looks like they are now under the control of the NPS.

Cannonmaker · « **Reply #11 on:** February 22, 2007, 06:24:23 PM »

A piece of history lives on, 144 years later, looks to be in great shape.

Rick

intoodeep · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2007, 03:40:55 AM »

This is an excellent example of a Confederate Mountain Rifle and limber. The condition is amazing for it's age. It also has well documented history with it. I hope it goes to a good home.

copdoc · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2007, 04:09:18 PM »

Thanks guys. I saw this and got a lotto ticket. As soon as I match all the #s I'll hit the "buy it now".

laugh if you want but somebody will win. You know......I am going to have to shoot it at least once.

rampa room artillery · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2007, 08:44:08 AM »

i want to build one, does anyone want to go in with me and offer this guy selling it to send us more pics with messurements of everything in scale i will compete with it in the NSSA i wan one really bad. i want to build one.
let me know

guardsgunner · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2007, 02:05:15 PM »

I'm not that CAD smart, but could one scan in the picture of this gun ,or several and pick up enough dem. to build the carriage?

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #16 on:** February 26, 2007, 10:13:11 AM »

Quote from: rampa room artillery on February 25, 2007, 08:44:08 AM

i want to build one, does anyone want to go in with me and offer this guy selling it to send us more pics with messurements of everything in scale i will compete with it in the NSSA i wan one really bad. i want to build one.
let me know

You don't need measurements on everything. Antique Ordnance puts out a book on them with lots of drawings. They do have list of questions not known about it. I have that book and will be home tomorrow or Thursday and can post them. I also do have a repro of this so can help with barrel measurements. Mine is on the first model prairie carriage. It would be great to see carriages made properly.

I know one thing that would be great to know is the placement and size of the holes for the rear sight. There is next to nothing known about them. Perhaps the dimensions could be matched to other sights. From the placement, it looks like Chapman made a good guess for their mount. They used a modification of a naval Dahlgren sight for the part to insert into the base. I don't think this is quite as good as the pendulum hause sights for long distance.

The liner in mine was made by a fellow named Ken Kurdt. He's supposed to be the one who does liners for Steen and maybe others. It is a beefy piece of steel and the muzzle end has almost no brass and almost all liner.

If you actually do this you might want to consider how authentic you want the interior to be. The rifling is 3 groove sawtooth with a 1 in 120" twist. When I plug this directly into Greenhill I get an ideal projectile length of 6.2". That is suicidally long for a lead projectile. Perhaps more grooves with a different twist could allow shorter projectiles.

Steve

Double D · « **Reply #17 on:** February 26, 2007, 04:09:41 PM »

Steve why a lead projectile? Why not zinc?

CU_Cannon · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:17:09 AM »

It makes me wonder why the family would want to give it up. It is not only part of US history but a part of family history.

Double D · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2007, 04:59:16 AM »

Quote from: CU_Cannon on February 27, 2007, 03:17:09 AM

It makes me wonder why the family would want to give it up. It is not only part of US history but a part of family history.

There are at least 240,000 reasons...

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2007, 05:41:36 AM »

Quote from: Double D on February 26, 2007, 04:09:41 PM

Steve why a lead projectile? Why not zinc?

The mould also has inserts for zinc or other metals so they could be cast with screws in the base for the sabot. It gets a lot more complicated. I really doubt if pure zinc could work as a Minie ball. Perhaps alloyed but I'd expect it to break. The general way this would work with zinc is as a Read projectile with a brass sabot attached. The sabot is the part that expands and engages the rifling. That requires machining & annealling. I'll probably move to it but don't have the equipment yet for this.

I've spoken to several people who do rifled artillery. The projectiles shaped like the airgun pellets, in lead, are supposed to perform well at 200 yards, absolute max 300 yards. I suppose with heavier BP loads the center column might collapse in the barrel and an unbalanced projectile leaves the barrel. One fellow claimed to be doing well with these cast in aluminum.

Zinc is great for smoothbore but for a muzzle loading rifled cannon, it needs some help to work with rifling. I've played with some pieces left from casting and it seems way too brittle to be the expanding part.

Steve

Artilleryman · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:01:14 AM »

In my Parrott I can use zinc or aluminum rounds without a sabot by casting the projectile with lugs that engage the rifling (mechanical fit). I don't think that this method would work with the type of rifling in the Mountain Rifle.

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #22 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:34:14 AM »

Quote from: Artilleryman on February 27, 2007, 07:01:14 AM

In my Parrott I can use zinc or aluminum rounds without a sabot by casting the projectile with lugs that engage the rifling (mechanical fit). I don't think that this method would work with the type of rifling in the Mountain Rifle.

I agree it probably wouldn't work. The 3 groove sawtooth is deep and the sawtooth is a sharp angle. I'd worry about the projectile momentarily binding in its movement. That would cause a huge pressure spike. The design also implies the projectile wasn't meant to fill the rifling. It would expand enought to engage it but I don't see who it could easily manage a seal.

Steve

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #23 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:56:31 AM »

Quote from: CrufflerSteve on February 26, 2007, 10:13:11 AM

Quote from: rampa room artillery on February 25, 2007, 08:44:08 AM
i

If you actually do this you might want to consider how authentic you want the interior to be. The rifling is 3 groove sawtooth with a 1 in 120" twist. When I plug this directly into Greenhill I get an ideal projectile length of 6.2". That is suicidally long for a lead projectile. Perhaps more grooves with a different twist could allow shorter projectiles.

Steve

Steve,

I wouldn't be shy about trying a lead projectile of 3" or 3.5". This should be a more reasonable weight and "overstabilization" is really a non-issue, especially at the turtle-like velocities we blackpowder shooters are dealing with. The ideal projectile length for our 1/6 scale Parrott Rifle is 4.75". We use 2.00" to 2.25" bolts all day long without any problem at all and with excellent accuracy. The plains are drying out, Steve. Are you getting anxious?

Regards,

Mike and Tracy

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #24 on:** March 01, 2007, 04:09:50 AM »

Quote from: seacoastartillery on February 27, 2007, 07:56:31 AM

Quote from: CrufflerSteve on February 26, 2007, 10:13:11 AM
Quote from: rampa room artillery on February 25, 2007, 08:44:08 AM
i
If you actually do this you might want to consider how authentic you want the interior to be. The rifling is 3 groove sawtooth with a 1 in 120" twist. When I plug this directly into Greenhill I get an ideal projectile length of 6.2". That is suicidally long for a lead projectile. Perhaps more grooves with a different twist could allow shorter projectiles.
Steve
Steve,
I wouldn't be shy about trying a lead projectile of 3" or 3.5". This should be a more reasonable weight and "overstabilization" is really a non-issue, especially at the turtle-like velocities we blackpowder shooters are dealing with. The ideal projectile length for our 1/6 scale Parrott Rifle is 4.75". We use 2.00" to 2.25" bolts all day long without any problem at all and with excellent accuracy. The plains are drying out, Steve. Are you getting anxious?
Regards,
Mike and Tracy

The only thing I'm anxious about is the fact that March & April are Colorado's snowy months. If we get any major storms the plains will be mud puddles for months.

My lead Minie balls work out to 3 3/4" 3 pound 11 ounces for the short range and 3 1/2" 4 pounds one ounce for the heavy long range round. The fellow who developed the mould thought they were "okay". He got much better results with a Read projectile with zinc body and brass sabot and had even tried several sabot designs before settling on one. He fired 1000's of rounds testing this and went through several designs. That's a lot of experience. His heart is set on competing at Grayling and now a 3" Blakely rifle is his shooter. I'm more modest. If I could get good groups at 300 yards, so-so at 600 and hit the target at 1000 I'd be thrilled.

Steve

CrufflerSteve · « **Reply #25 on:** March 01, 2007, 06:53:37 AM »

BTW, ebay pulled the auction. Can't sell that evil stuff.

Steve

GGaskill · « **Reply #26 on:** March 01, 2007, 08:46:03 AM »

Any idea what the highest bid was? Maybe the seller pulled it for lack of serious bids.

intoodeep · « **Reply #27 on:** March 01, 2007, 09:17:27 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on March 01, 2007, 08:46:03 AM

Any idea what the highest bid was? Maybe the seller pulled it for lack of serious bids.

No bids. The evil Ebay system

pulled it since they consider it a weapon and not a historical piece. It has been relisted as just an expensive photo. It is also listed on GB's auction site.

seahawktrading · « **Reply #28 on:** March 01, 2007, 10:02:08 AM »

Hello Guys,
I have been watching this forum. I listed the CSA Mountain Rilfe. As you know ebay pulled the auction. It is listed in Gun Broker and I have just lowered the price to $200,000.

Gary

GGaskill · « **Reply #29 on:** March 01, 2007, 11:19:52 AM »

Have you considered the traditional auction houses such as Sotheby's? I suppose they want a substantial commission but you may get exposure to more well heeled clients.