Author Topic: A Short Throated Handi!! (Read 1647 times)

quickdtoo · « **on:** February 27, 2007, 01:35:57 PM »

I finally got around to getting my 7mm-08 Handi ready to shoot, loaded up some 120gr TSX and 130gr Speer BTs using Rem brass and H4350, found out it's got a short throat in it, couldn't load to recommended COL with either bullet, that was a little disappointing. $:-\$ With the exception of the .45-70, all my Handis that I've loaded for have long throats, so I've always loaded longer than recommended COL, this is the first time I've had to load short, so I didn't load any to max recommended loads, used start data up to about 1gr over where the powder started being compressed, if I went to full recommended loads, the powder would be real compressed!!

Any recommendations???

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #1 on:** February 27, 2007, 02:09:03 PM »

Tim
For one thing boat tails don't serve any practical advantage until you get out to way past 400yrds. If at all posible stay away from boat tails unless you go into 600 yards + target shooting.

A compressed powder charge is not really all that bad. It giver better shot to shot ballistics. I use a lot of compressed charges up to 105%. As a matter of fact I select a powder and load that needs a slight compression.

A long drop tube will help to settle the powder and elliminate some compression.

dw06 · « **Reply #2 on:** February 27, 2007, 02:20:27 PM »

I agree with Fred,nothing wrong with compressed loads,I've shot a bunch of them over the years and were some of my best loads.Just curious,as my handis are long throats,but what is the oal for the7mm-08 you got?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** February 27, 2007, 02:27:20 PM »

The 120gr TSX touches the lands at 2.804", I seated them the recommended .050" off at 2.754". The 130gr Speer touches at 2.753", seated to 2.750". I don't have a Speer book, but used the Hodgdon's data for the Sierra 130gr HPBT, COL is 2.8". There's no recommend COL for the TSX since it's supposed to be seated .050" off the lands anyway.

Thx,

Tim

quickdtoo · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:30:31 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on February 27, 2007, 02:09:03 PM

Tim
For one thing boat tails don't serve any practical advantage until you get out to way past 400yrds. If at all posible stay away from boat tails unless you go into 600 yards + target shooting.

Fred,

That doesn't make any sense, a boat tail should provide less drag at any range, whether it accounts for a lot of trajectory advantage at normal hunting ranges of 300yds or less may be of less benefit, but any velocity advantage seems worth while to me if there's no disadvantages.

I would also think a boat tail bullet compared to a flat base bullet of identical weight would reduce pressure some since the rear portion of the bullet has no bearing surface, but still adds mass to the bullet.

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:33:08 PM »

Tim, until you get the throat sorted out, shorten the cases about .020 and load as normal. Kind of a "built-in" throat job.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:35:17 PM »

I that a trick post, Joe?

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:37:43 PM »

Nope, look what Hornady did with the .45-70 Leverevolution in an effort to shorten the over all length. Works fine.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:43:09 PM »

But they supposedly use special powders, does the reduced amount of case neck volume decrease the pressure enough to offset the pressure increase induced by the shorter throat and COL?

thx,

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:46:03 PM »

You're talkin' pistols and rifles here. In rifles, the more run at the lands the lower the pressure. In pistols, just the opposite.................No kidding.

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:49:27 PM »

Are you saying that the recommended OAL is too long for the throat? In my .308 Weatherby Vanguard, the Barnes slugs shoot best at .045-.050 off the lands. I lacked about .020 so I shortened a few cases the .020 needed and it works fine.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2007, 03:58:03 PM »

Quote from: smokinjoe5150 on February 27, 2007, 03:49:27 PM

Are you saying that the recommended OAL is too long for the throat?

Yes, that's why I said I have a short throated handi. That's why I questioned shortening the brass, I can't seat the bullets any longer due to the short throat.

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2007, 04:25:48 PM »

Maybe I'm not saying this clearly. Here's what I did:

The top is the original. The bottom is the short case with the bullet seated to the same position in the case. ie cannelure position is at the case mouth in both views. This gives .020" more run at the lands.

(All dimensions are for illustration only)

krod47nw · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2007, 04:38:34 PM »

Shortening the brass is the same as seating the bullet deeper. you would still have the same powder compression.
I'm sure you trimmed the brass to length. I would check the rest of the dimensions of the brass. have you fired any of them? Measure to see if the shoulder is pushed back. the COL doesn't tell the whole story. On a bottleneck cartridge you need the distance from the shoulder of the brass to the lands.

Dillohide · « **Reply #14 on:** February 27, 2007, 05:04:35 PM »

One thing to watch for with really compressed loads using boat tails, the boat tail can push powder between the bullets base and the neck wall as it's seated causing the case neck to buldge slightly. A flat based bullet is a little shorter giving more room in the case for powder plus it compresses powder more evenly. Normal compressed loads with a boat tail should not be a problem however.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** February 27, 2007, 05:19:29 PM »

The new Rem brass was full length sized and fitted to the chamber so it's flush with the chamber mouth, it was actually a tad long and had negative headspace, protruded about .001" before I adjusted the die to bump the shoulder and make it flush. It was then trimmed to 2.025". The brass fits fine in the chamber and a loaded round fits fine in the chamber, bullet just needs to be seated to a considerably shorter COL than recommended in the data I have. The SAAMI COL is 2.8", that can be done with the 120gr TSX, it's touching the lands at 2.804", but not with the 130gr Speer, it's touching at 2.753", well short of the 2.8" recommended. $:-\$

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #16 on:** February 27, 2007, 06:57:21 PM »

Quick:

Smoke a bullet and see if it is touching on all of the lands..not just on 1 of them..you may have a burr on one of them..or your bullets may not be concentric in the case mouth..If everything is ok...then you got a out of spec'd chamber...and it will have to go back into NEF..or you can use some break in bullets like in the Tubb's kit to smooth it out enough to allow you to load them out to where they need to be.

Speer #13 shows this bullet and 50 grains of H4350 to be compressed at 2.730"....How much did you load till it was compressed? Since your already past the shoulder into the case body I wouldn't worry about any of the powder rising up into the throat area and getting case bulge...

Your also correct in the advantages of using a boat tail designed bullet..While the trajectory certainly comes into play at ranges exceeding 300 yards...the advantage of the sleeker design also aids in wind deflection as well...and a inch or two can mean a great deal on a deer if the placement was a bit iffy...or when shooting in a breeze...Every advantage is worth using...even if it cost a few pennies more for the bullet..provided your rifle can shoot them accurately to begin with...

Mac

trotterlg · « **Reply #17 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:05:17 PM »

Jus run a throating reamer into the barrel and make it as long as you want. Game over. Larry

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:15:14 PM »

Quote from: trotterlg on February 27, 2007, 07:05:17 PM

Jus run a throating reamer into the barrel and make it as long as you want. Game over. Larry

Send me the $30 to rent the reamer and I'd be glad to!!

krod47nw · « **Reply #19 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:26:54 PM »

Sounds like you checked everything.. I guess you have 3 choices; Seat the bullet deeper, use a shorter bullet, or send it back to be fixed.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #20 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:29:23 PM »

Mac, I smoked one of the 130gr Speers, it touches evenly all the way around, neat little marks at each land.

Factory 140gr Rem Cor-Lokts chamber just fine, but they're loaded to a COL of 2.740".

Apparently since the Speer manual shows it loaded to a .020" shorter COL it's just the shape of the bullet that requires it to be loaded short, I loaded it to 49.5gr, so I'll go ahead and shoot em and see how they work. What brass did Speer use??

This is a used barrel, so no option to return it, and I know they use Rem ammo to test fire, and it will load fine.

Maybe this is much to do about nothing, it's just unusual for a Handi...... other than a .45-70!!

Thanks,

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** February 27, 2007, 07:48:46 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on February 27, 2007, 06:50:10 PM

Here are a few items to think about boat tails.

Quote

1. Boat tails provide the most benefits at lower velocities (sub sonic).

Not completely true...Most ballistic programs bear this out...you forgetting the wind..

Quote

2. Boat tails require more stability because they are longer.

Shooting them in a barrel with the proper twist is all that is required...and in this case...the twist should be fine..and they should stabilize correctly...but we are talking about a Handi...and one never really knows for sure till you do shoot them..

Quote

3. Boat tails when seated to the same length as flat base will reduce case volume.
Hence increase pressure as bullet infringes the powder room.

Not always true...you can mix different manufactures bullets and come up with this...but look at the flat base Speer 130 grain bullet #1623...and the BT of the same weight #1624...Here you have virtually the same length bullet in each..and less bearing surface on the BT bullet...Guess which one will have the lower pressures...Give them a call and ask them..

Quote

4.Boat tails will burn out the troat faster than a flat base, because gas drives into the wedge and prevents the bullet from obduration.

B.S. This hasn't been proven for most commercial cartridges..because since most barrels are sized correctly..if the bullet is sized correctly this is where the gas seal comes into play...We aren't talking cast bullets Fred

Quote

5. Boat tails do not reduce pressure, since presure is generated by the weight of the bullet not the shape. Friction proofing of any bullet will reduce pressure.

OH PLEASE...Pressure is generated by how much bearing surface is on a bullet and the powder charge.in a correctly sized bore...and is directly related to the shape...especially when it concerns a grooved surface as the Barnes TMX bullets...or the Northforks...You are correct about coated bullets reducing pressure...but only that on this statement.

Quote

6. A flat base secant ogive bullet will reduce friction as much as a Boat tail in general.

Perhaps...but...it is depending on the total bearing surface of either type bullet...since this what will determine the pressure..in these 2 types of bullets

Quote

7. Flat base bullets for normal hunting ranges are more accurate. Don't take my word for it ask the 300 yard target shooters.

MORE BS...The barrel will determine which is more accurate..this and this alone...You or I or anyone else on this planet can't say anything else on the matter...

Quote

8. Trimming cases shorter than design is a very poor practice it leaves a big gap at the neck transition for a carbon ring to build up which really kills accuracy when not removed. Besides it is a bugger to remove. Chambers by design are already longer than the design case length. Cutting cases shorter and pushing the bullet further into the case, with equal loads will also increase the pressure. Know your chamber length and trim accordingly.
7mm-08 case lenght is 2.035", Chamber design length is 2.055" Now why would you want to cut the cases to 1.995? . Good grief?

This I agree with

Quote

9. A VLD bullet ( Very low drag) will yaw for some time before it settles down usuall after 400 yards. I has both a secant ogive and boat tail. These are not recommended for short range targets say 400 yards. Hand crafted at $1.50 each.

Wrong oh buck-o...I have a bunch of these bullets as well...and they can be more accurate inside 300 yards than any other type of bullet...Again...It will be the rifle barrel itself that will make the determination of which bullet proves to be the most accurate.

Quote

10. Boat tails have the center of gravity and the center of pressure further appart then a flat base causing dynamic instabilty in many of the cheaper Boat tails bullets. It means inaccuracy. But then when folks are happy with 1-1/2" groups non of this means bugger all.

I'm sorry...you don't make any sense here to me at all...If you mean most commercially produced boat tails as being cheap...and the centers of these bullets causing instability in flight... and to wither they will yaw and only give you 1-1/2" groups..I think you really don't know what your talking about...

Quote

You still want to use Boat tails in a hunting rifle? Yes there are exceptions to this when a bullet performs with super accuracy like the Barnes 25 cal 100 gr TSX at 3430 ft a truly long range deer bullet. Not any that I have come accross will perform like it. Yes it got a Boat tail. ??

I've loaded more boat tail bullets for all of my Handi's Fred...All of them have been exceeding accurate...Including those first (10) 257 caliber TSX bullet I sent you way back...remember...and I'll match any of them shooting boat tails(even the cheapest) to any (even the most expensive you have) flat base bullet and get more consistency with better accuracy each and every time...I am not basing this just on the multitude of Handi's I've owned...but on the multitude of bolt guns/pumps/auto's and levers...along with all of the Ruger's as well

Quick...They used Remington's..

Mac

hellacatcher · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2007, 01:51:19 AM »

I know I don't know much abut it, but I have a 22-250 that will put 55 gr sierras boat tails in the same hole at a 100 yrds and 200 yrds.

Fred M · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2007, 06:16:42 AM »

Mac.
We know you have rifles, barrels and bullets that perform better than any others regardless. We also know that it is impossible for you to be wrong, no argument.

No you never send me TSX bullets but 10 110gr Accu Bonds in 25 cal. that did not shoot well at all. My findings and others were that the were imbalanced. My simple test was to roll them on the kitchen table, where you can see the wobble. Yes they are boat tails.

You added the reason for inaccuracy was because I Moly plated them. Now there is a historical statement, who can argue with that.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 28, 2007, 07:00:54 AM »

Yes Fred...I was mistaken about sending you TSX 25 cal bullets...it was Quick that sent you a box of the 100 grain ...my mistake.I was waiting on my dealer to get them in when I sent those to you..

But as to the rest of your statements..you don't have to take my word on anything...just talk to the bullet/powder manufactures or even do a search on the subject of throat erosion...

As to my rifles shooting better than most including yours..perhaps it is the amount of time,money,and energy I put into it that has given me a better insight to how to load for them since I have been doing this with them since I was old enough to stand at my Fathers bench......and then too perhaps it is listening to some of the best shooters around..and gleaning from them what has worked for them..to their loading techniques...and various other things to make one a better shooter...

I do make mistakes Fred...and own up to them when I do...but the one thing I don't do is to try to pass off old wives tales or any other unsubstantiated information as fact. I rely on the information given to me by the various bullet manufactures and powder manufactures and know what they say to be an accurate assessment of what I can load for under normal conditions for various rifles...It is not an exact science we hand loaders do...it is making best guesstimate's of what will work or what won't...

Since no 2 rifles will ever shoot exactly the same...making generalized statements as facts is something I won't do...and if you can predict what a paticular load will shoot like in anyones rifle..then perhaps you are the most unique individual in the world...since no other earthly person can do this...

I understand that you have spent a great deal of time money and effort as well...and am not saying otherwise..You have a-lot of insight on a-lot of things..but sometimes you just act like what you say is the gospel truth..and it isn't the case here...

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:39:02 AM »

Back on topic... when I originally bought the barrel, I bought a bag of Win brass for the 7mm-08, then later forgot about it and picked up a bag of Rem brass cuz that's what all the data uses when I started checking out loads. So now I have a bag of Win brass and was wondering what the difference is so I can use Rem data in the Win brass. I know that in the 45-70, Win brass is thicker, holds less powder, the same powder used in both will achieve the same velocity but with 2-4grs less powder in the Win brass.

Today I checked the water capacity of the Rem and Win 7mm-08 brass, after full length sizing, trimming and champfering....

Win- weight- 163gr, holds 54.8gr water

Rem- weight- 168gr, holds 55.4gr water

Not a lot of difference tween em as far as capacity, for what it's worth!

Tim

Smokin Joe · « **Reply #26 on:** February 28, 2007, 08:58:38 AM »

A 1% difference. You can get more than that by varying the OAL.

By the way, Tim, the next time you want to load that charge, try my "Okie drop tube"........hold a soda straw to the bottom of the powder funnel and pour it slowly.

nomosendero · « **Reply #27 on:** February 28, 2007, 09:28:06 AM »

Quote from: hellacatcher on February 28, 2007, 01:51:19 AM

I know I don't know much abut it, but I have a 22-250 that will put 55 gr sierras boat tails in the same hole at a 100 yrds and 200 yrds.

You had better be glad you did not know!

I have shot very small groups with boat tails & even VLD's, but it was mainly because I did not know I wasn't supposed to.

luv2shoot · « **Reply #28 on:** February 28, 2007, 02:50:44 PM »

MTGlass · « **Reply #29 on:** March 02, 2007, 05:24:50 AM »

Quick,

Don't know if I'm in the same boat as you with my daughter's 7mm-08. FWIW, here's some numbers I came up with last night using Fred's split neck COL gauge and what 7mm bullets I have on hand.

154gr Hdy Interlock 2.851
145gr Grand Slam 2.756
145gr Speer SP 2.762
175gr Speer MagTip 2.717
160gr Grand Slam 2.830
160gr Partition 2.831
140gr Partition 2.835

All are +/- .0015" OAL

I have some left over 160gr Grand Slam and 150gr Partition loads seated to 2.8. They both chamber fine. All my 139gr Hdy Interlocks are loaded into test and Hodgdon "youth" loads. They chamber fine. The ogive profile looks quite similar to the 154 IL, just a shorter shank.

I'm most interested in coming up with a ~140-145gr load using partition type bullets that will be effective on elk at modest ranges. Looking at these numbers the 140 Partition will get a hard look. Who knows? The 145 GS may prove more accurate with it's longer bearing surface.

I'm still perplexed as to what to do about this barrel. There is a .001" constriction just ahead of the throat. The grooves are .286 here and .287 at the muzzel. I still haven't shot it waiting for some decent weather.