Author Topic: Hearing the complaints  (Read 2973 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Ditchdigger

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1385
  • Gender: Male
Hearing the complaints
« on: March 01, 2007, 04:17:12 PM »
I can't help but think someone was listening on the H and R/ nef forum. They gave us a stronger frame (300 winmag) a better barrel, closer spec's on everything,in other words they fixed everything. It's too bad that it was CVA that done it though. :o :o :o :o :o
I really hope that all there products are as good as these first one's appear to be. I know for sure that everyone is going to be shocked when they first shoot a 30 06 or something simular. It looks like Quick will have to do a step by step trigger job for everyone to get these triggers down to 2 1/2 pds or less.     :) :) :) :) :)    Digger
Rest in Peace Old Friend July 2017

Offline myarmor

  • Trade Count: (46)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2007, 04:46:31 PM »
It's sad NEF/H&R didn't.
I believe they will loose some good customers because of this. I still love my Handis but as with many here I have gotten tired of their sloppyness and bad decisions. I don't blame them per-say, but Marlin as they seem to be the deciding factor what goes and what doesn't.
If CVA can keep the prices down around what they are now, and work on some new calibers and stock sets, It will be to their benefit. Though demand can cause them to rise...


-Aaron

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2007, 05:07:15 PM »
You sure hit the nail on the head there, Digger!!

I don't want to encourage folks to void their warranty, but if anyone wants some help on a trigger job, I'll post some pics of the differences so you can use Perklo's and Raynor's instructions as a guide, there's not much difference in the internal design, it is slightly different, but the same.....sorta!! :D


Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline nomosendero

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5760
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2007, 06:21:55 PM »
No, when I get mine I believe I will let CVA do it & keep the warranty. Besides, the new one I have held so far have pretty good triggers as is.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2007, 06:26:27 PM »
That would be my recommendation for most folks, but if ya want one lighter than 3lbs, doing your own or having a smith do it is likely the only way to get there. ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2007, 08:21:33 PM »
No, when I get mine I believe I will let CVA do it & keep the warranty. Besides, the new one I have held so far have pretty good triggers as is.

Same here...and I won't recommend anyone start voiding their warranties by doing this...Mark assured me they would do a good job on it..and it is free...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2007, 08:25:14 PM »
Well, maybe not entirely free unless they pay shipping to them, and if they're as reliable as should be expected, it's not likely to be needing a trip to them for other work. :-\ And besides that, Mark didn't say doing a trigger hone would void the warranty, he said 
Quote
" 3rd party "repairs" can effect warranty."

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2007, 09:24:59 PM »
Well, maybe not entirely free unless they pay shipping to them, and if they're as reliable as should be expected, it's not likely to be needing a trip to them for other work. :-\ And besides that, Mark didn't say doing a trigger hone would void the warranty, he said 
Quote
" 3rd party "repairs" can effect warranty."

Tim

Well...that would make it even a better warranty if they honor a rifle after some folks klutz up a trigger job on them... :D

Mac.
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2007, 05:04:10 AM »
since this thread is entitled "Re: Hearing the complaints", and since they cannot do much about not being made in the USA by fellow American citizens have they heard the complaints of it's looks? I had read on this site that they may try to make them look more like a rifle and less like a converted handgun, has this "Mark" person commented any more on that?....<><.... ???

here is a quote from an earlier post by an highly regarded member here regarding their "appearence" and the company accepting feedback and wanting to please the customer, this remark was a result of the member speaking to the company and perhaps to "Mark" himself: "They are also looking at making the rifle more aesthetically pleasing too...and are looking at ways to improve them and give the customers what they want..."
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2007, 05:22:44 AM »
How's this one look to ya, MSP?? ;D

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2007, 05:32:48 AM »
I may at some time end up with one to try but that is not to say I would spend a lot of money on several of them. Iit may be superficial but the "looks" of these CVA'a really trune me off. They look as if the company tried to capitilize on the ungainly looks of the TC's and I think they have attained that goal. I also think if the quaility was now much better now than it was in the past with CVA's they could have designed a gun that looked more like a rifle and allowed it to stand on it's own merits instead of copying another what I consider to be, ugly design which evolved simply because a rifle plant burnt down and the company (TC) decided to take the cheap way out and instead of rebuilding just converted some pistols into rifles. If I do end up with one I would feel ill at ease being seen with it because the looks do make my stomach crawl. I can proudly bring my little inexpensive, handsome and classic H&R's to the range or into the fields or woods with pride and love to outshoot the high dollar guns with my "poor relation" Handi Rifles, and they look good also!!! As another esteemed member here said about the looks of these TC wannabe's when comparing them to dating less than attractive girls as a young man: "do like I use to do many year's ago, put some really dark shade's on, and it may look better."....<><.... 8)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Ranger J

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2007, 05:33:40 AM »
I’ve pretty much given up on the Handi Rifles and have sold off all my barrels except for the 45/70, which is on my frame.  I have no complaint on it but got tired of other barrels that were supposed to be custom fitted to my frame and then didn’t shoot well or didn’t eject well or some other problem.  I’m not a gunsmith or even a tinker and really expect my guns to shoot well and the mechanics to work well right out of the box.  I don’t mind going through a few loads to find that ‘sweet’ load that shoots best but some experiences with Handi barrels were ridiculous.  I replaced two of my barrels with Stevens 200s and the 44 with a Marlin 1894.  The Stevens shoot great (even if stock is of ugly material) and the 1894 seems to be unfortunately somewhat similar in barrel size to the Handi barrel.  The difference being that I have already found one accurate load for it.  I haven’t got to see any of these CVA guns yet but they sound encouraging as I really like the concept of a single shot rifle.  Now if they will just work on the shape of the stock and make it in a correct size 44mag… :)
RJ

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2007, 05:38:17 AM »
Quick that stock makes the gun look better but I am wondering if it is a computer generated mock-up or if it really available. There is something about the back of the reciever and the front part of the buttstock where they join that does not look quite kosher to me. Also I have to say I almost feel apologetic about my feelings (but not quite). Since this is not an issued firearm to me (notice I did not use the term weapon, getting to be politically correct in my old age  ::) ;D) and since I am the one who can decide to spend money on it or not I feel differently in accepting it as it is....<><.... :)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline myarmor

  • Trade Count: (46)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3239
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2007, 05:41:46 AM »
If you can just find one and feel how this thing shoulders and balances out, the somewhat odd looks will be second place I think in many questionable minds. Just give it a try MSP, you don't have to buy one if you dislike it and if it bothers you that much :)
And knowing what goes into those Begara barrels, is a big turn on...even if they aren't made here in the US.
I would love to take one to the range, hopefully one day in the near future I will be 8)

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2007, 05:42:22 AM »
RangerJ, I agree with your statement:

"Now if they will just work on the shape of the stock and make it in a correct size 44mag… "
 
I feel they also have to change the angle of the reciever but that being done a .44 Mag like you describe would be on my short list to aquire, I would even like a .41 Mag like that also as a companion piece to a .41 Mag revolver I have....<><.... :)

P.S. - I am really not against the guns guys, they have a couple of strikes against them thats all, but I just cannot get by thier looks, I have a few guns make in other countries and that in my mind is acceptable.  I also know there are some here that have become disenchanted with H&R/NEF's and that are really pushing these CVA's. I am happy for them that they have found something they like, we should all have something as a hobby that we enjoy. Perhaps someday I will shoot one and as I said perhaps some day I may even purchase one, but like the looks? Never, they are ugly and will forever be ugly, nothing more than converted pistols of a style copied from the TC's in a marketing ploy....<><.... :)

I try to be more polite but always end with typing out my true feelings, that actually is a complement to you guys here on the site, I feel comfortable enough with you other members here to voice my own true feelings. I do not mean to demean or hurt anyone, these feelings and beliefs I have stated are really how I feel, I hope I have not caused anyone here any hurt feelings on thier end, I just simply think, quality or not, they are ugly, so ugly I don't want one, they do however interest me as far as a new item on the market. If you want to get involved with shooting and collecting them I wish you the best and lots of fun and enjoyment, after all, isn't that why we do this? I enjoy checking this thread and posting on it occaisionally, I do not mean to offend any of you and that is not my intent, rather the truth is my intent....<><.... :)
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Ditchdigger

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1385
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2007, 06:16:58 AM »
Yep MSP,they do look odd,but they do feel good,especially when you fire them. I could'nt believe that I was shooting a 30 06 with max load's when I shot mine the first time. I don't know if its the recoil pad or the stock that tame's it,but it sure don't feel like the full house loads that they are.
Mine's the compact modes with 13.3" of pull,and I don't have to lean my crippled old neck so far forward the look through the scope.I can shoot with my head nearly straight up and still have a full view in the Atec scope thats on it.To top it off,they come with some excellant firesights,and the best sling I've ever used. I'm keeping most of my Handi's,but they'll be carried less since I've got the  30 06 barrel.I'm still a little concerned about how they'll hold up,but so far there doing good for me. But sometimes I'm tempted to put the dark shades on. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  Digger
Rest in Peace Old Friend July 2017

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2007, 06:18:14 AM »
In reality, the looks of the CVA's stock is due to its ergonmic design, not necessarily a copy of the TC, because it does fit a human body well, as Aaron said, try it, you'll like it!! ;)

But looking a bit deeper, beauty is only skin deep ya know :D, the frame and underlug is very close to that of a Handi, so it's a compliment to the H&R engineers really, they've clone it and improved upon it, something H&R could take a few ques on, IMHO.

The latch design is almost identical as is the latch shelf, but with an improvement with a pocket for the latch spring, the trigger design is the same, but made of metal which appears to be the same cast material that TC uses on the Encore, and the trigger spring and latch spring are bigger, but in the same layout within the metal trigger guard that isn't an exact match of the H&R, but looks like the same person designed it, but with improvements.

The barrel release handle is a cross of H&R/TC, in the TC position, but the internal design very similar to the H&R.

The hammer is heavier as is the hammer spring which anchors just like the H&R, although the H&R hammer spring can be set against the frame lip where the OE doesn't have the lip which makes installing the trigger guard a little harder cuz you have to compress the hammer spring at the same time, not just the latch spring.

The underlug is a cross of the Encore and H&R, the latch shelf is H&R, the extractor is TC, as is the hinge pin, a removable pin that is bigger than the H&R, but smaller than the Encore, and if the material the underlug and pin are made of is better than the Encore, is doesn't need to be bigger.

The forend hanger stud is welded on with a nice bead or each side, not tack wellded like the H&R stud.

The firing pin design is similar to the Encore and is removable by just removing one screw and is parallel to the bore, not angled like the H&R, another move for the good, IMO.

As far as voiding the warranty, doing a trigger job without damaging any parts shouldn't be an issue, specially if say there's a defect in the barrel, CVA would be violating the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act if they denied a claim as the two issues are not related. That's akin to installing headers on your truck and a vehicle warranty claim being denied for repair of a defective radio because the aftermarket header was installed!!

Now if a person broke/damaged a part while doing a trigger job, that wouldn't be covered under warranty and I know there are klutzs out there that may not be up to the task, I made a trigger template for one member who has never used it, but I'm sure he just knows he's not up to the task, something each of us has to evaluate before doing a trigger job. ;)

And if a rifle needs to go in for warranty work and a home trigger job was done, I would expect that CVA would return the trigger to their minimum or standard pull weight, just as H&R and TC does.

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson-Moss_Warranty_Act

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline bigjeepman

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1108
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2007, 07:32:07 AM »
Very good stuff here guys ... here is a quote from a man who lived 2500 years ago ...

Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it.     

Confucious  ... 551 B.C. - 479 B.C.

We are all different. I do not think the Elite is so ugly. I do not think of it as something of beauty but if it shoots good ... then what the heck.

MSP ... if we do not say what we really think, then why say anything? I have never found you to be anything short of being "honest" with your viewpoints/knowledge.
5 Rules for Happiness
free your heart from hatred ... free your mind from worries ... live simply ... give more ... expect less

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2007, 07:57:15 AM »
Next centerfire i buy will be the elite! To many good things said here about them. Course im flat out broke after buying another muzzleloader and now trying to buy another one  ;D

Offline MSP Ret

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (173)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8940
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2007, 08:37:18 AM »
Ah, come on Digger and Quick, why did you have to muddy up the waters with expierence, knowledge, and facts ;D. I do respect both of your learned gentlemans opinions, (be they viewed with dark glasses on or not Tim  ;)). Great points guys, and bigjeepman thanks for your insight, knowledge, quote, and kind words, I do apprecite them. Quite a nice eclectic group of guys we have here....<><.... :D
"Giving up your gun to someone else on demand is called surrender. It means that you have given up your ability to protect yourself to a power that is greater than you." - David Yeagley

Offline Ditchdigger

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (12)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1385
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2007, 09:00:33 AM »
Come Andy,put the dark glasses on,then a wig,and go into a store that has them and shoulder them. Check out all the details,lockup barrel,etc. and then come back and tell us about it.  You'll have the dark glass's on so you won't throw up,and no one will recognize you with the wig on.( don't want you to be caught holding such a thing) Just think when you start to shoot at a animal,let them see the gun,and they'll fall over dead from laughing somuch. Think of all the ammo you'll save,and don't try to tell me the Handi can do the same thing. :D :D :D :D  Digger
Rest in Peace Old Friend July 2017

Offline quickdtoo

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (149)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 43301
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2007, 09:04:59 AM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2007, 10:31:17 AM »
since this thread is entitled "Re: Hearing the complaints", and since they cannot do much about not being made in the USA by fellow American citizens have they heard the complaints of it's looks? I had read on this site that they may try to make them look more like a rifle and less like a converted handgun, has this "Mark" person commented any more on that?....<><.... ???

here is a quote from an earlier post by an highly regarded member here regarding their "appearence" and the company accepting feedback and wanting to please the customer, this remark was a result of the member speaking to the company and perhaps to "Mark" himself: "They are also looking at making the rifle more aesthetically pleasing too...and are looking at ways to improve them and give the customers what they want..."

Of course the company is wanting feed back...What you need to ask yourself Andy is ...Why in the world would a company refuse to listen to it's customer base and not implement most everything reasonable they have heard from them...I know of 1 company in paticular that is this way......don't you  ??? ??? ???  CVA is indeed looking for for ways to improve their rifles...To them and many fine folks...they look fine...and function fine...Others don't feel the same...this is just life...Yes...they are going to be coming out with a laminated stock for them according to the C/S manager...They have taken ideas from various manufactures and implemented them this rifle...The stock bolt layout is different...and the stock design reflects it...Can it be more conventional..Perhaps..I have asked a good stock maker to look into this rifle and see what if anything can be done...at a reasonable price...I certainly can't fault CVA for designing the current stock sets like they have...I haven't been able to watch the bullets hit the targets with my bull barreled Ultra through my scope...but I can with this non-bull barreled CVA 243...and that is shooting 95 grainers thru it too...

Tim...if you are referring to me about your template...I haven't had or felt the need to do a trigger job on one yet...All of mine have been I have made acceptable by other means or done at the factory and done exceeding well...Thankyouverymuch ;) :D :D

Mac

You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Ranger J

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • A Real Regular
  • ****
  • Posts: 990
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2007, 10:56:02 AM »
Ugly—smugly, who really cares if it shoots well out of the box and I don’t have to baby the parts to get it to function.  Of course being an old f*** I might have to take it to the deep woods and wear a sack over my head until I get used to it. :D  If anyone from CVA is really reading this please listen.  I would sure like a 44mag with a .429 bore and a 1in 20 twist.  You make this and we will come and I bet you we will buy also.
RJ

Offline zermatt7

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Avid Poster
  • *****
  • Posts: 138
  • Gender: Male
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2007, 11:26:11 AM »
To me the CVA Stocks (OPTIMA) resemble alot of the competition stocks, with out all the superfluous "flares & wings etc... While still incorporating a thumbhole stlyle/function.  On most guns a thumbhole stock is a rather pricey upgrade.  And with the Optima Cva has worked in the ergonomiics of the thumbhole design from the base model stock on up.  It doesnt have the looks of a classic hunting rifle but is sure seems to work &  handle well ... And even look good ! (IMHO anyhow) ;D

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2007, 12:00:07 PM »
Ugly—smugly, who really cares if it shoots well out of the box and I don’t have to baby the parts to get it to function.  Of course being an old f*** I might have to take it to the deep woods and wear a sack over my head until I get used to it. :D  If anyone from CVA is really reading this please listen.  I would sure like a 44mag with a .429 bore and a 1in 20 twist.  You make this and we will come and I bet you we will buy also.
RJ


Put GBO in the subject line as directed...and e-mail them here and let them know what you want   mark@cva.com

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline oldrookie

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Avid Poster
  • **
  • Posts: 119
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2007, 05:28:22 PM »
Quick that stock makes the gun look better but I am wondering if it is a computer generated mock-up or if it really available. There is something about the back of the reciever and the front part of the buttstock where they join that does not look quite kosher to me. Also I have to say I almost feel apologetic about my feelings (but not quite). Since this is not an issued firearm to me (notice I did not use the term weapon, getting to be politically correct in my old age  ::) ;D) and since I am the one who can decide to spend money on it or not I feel differently in accepting it as it is....<><.... :)

MSP....no one is breaking your knuckles to buy one. I might also say it sounds like this firearm might be beneath you. For me, I dont really care what others think and have always been results oriented.

Offline Buckskins & Black Powder

  • Moderator
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1700
  • Gender: Male
    • Buckskins & Black Powder
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2007, 06:08:07 PM »
i'd easily buy the elite when they come out with a 45-70 barrel. That would suit all of my needs and then some. I wonder what kind of prices that setup will cost?

Offline Mac11700

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (34)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6875
Re: Hearing the complaints
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2007, 07:11:52 PM »
i'd easily buy the elite when they come out with a 45-70 barrel. That would suit all of my needs and then some. I wonder what kind of prices that setup will cost?

It should go  for what the other center fire barrels are going for...and will be available real soon...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...