Friend looking for a 400 yd rifle

[Chuck White]

He always has deer come out and stay on the edge of the woods on the opposite side of his meadow!
He keeps talking that he wants a Rem M-673, but don't like the chamberings they're offered in.
He wants a rifle that will be accurate (MOA) at 400 yards.
His biggest problem is, he is very "recoil sensitive".
He's thinking about a 6mm Rem.  I told him that I don't think that a 6mm Rem bullet would expand much at that distance!

I think he might be better off for this purpose by getting a 22-250 Rem. and using the heavier bullets!

Any idea what the speed of the 100 gr 6mm bullet would be at 400 yards?
Any ideas on a more suitable cartridge fellas?
 

[Lloyd Smale]

I wouldnt want to count on any 22 bullet at 400 yards and probably not any 6mm either. Not that it wouldnt kill but i wouldnt have faith in it doing it EVERYTIME! Id look at a 2506 minimum and go up from there. A 270 or a 280 would probably be fine too but id still want to walk up a hundred yards closer. Personaly i cant see the need to shoot at 400 yards at any animal other then a varmit.

[Lead pot]

For that size game and at that range, it's hard to beat the .308.

Kurt

[NONYA]

UNLESS HES IN A WHEEL CHAIR TELL HIM TO LEARN TO STALK A COUPLE HUNDRED YARDS.

[Don Fischer]

What do you think might be more deadly; a 100 gr partition from a 6mm in the lungs or a 300 gr 338 bullet that misses?

Perhap's your friend could build a blind in the middle of the meadow? Just a thought!

It might be a good idea for him to study up on balistics and what it takes to kill an animal. If he's having trouble with a 400yd shot right now, unless he's shooting an open sighted 30-30, he'd be better off spending his spare money on ammo and practice!

Forgot. At 400 yds a 100gr 6mm bullet with a muzzle vel of 3100 fps is still traveling a bit over 2100 fps.

[Ahab]

He always has deer come out and stay on the edge of the woods on the opposite side of his meadow!
He keeps talking that he wants a Rem M-673, but don't like the chamberings they're offered in.
He wants a rifle that will be accurate (MOA) at 400 yards.
His biggest problem is, he is very "recoil sensitive".
He's thinking about a 6mm Rem.  I told him that I don't think that a 6mm Rem bullet would expand much at that distance!

I think he might be better off for this purpose by getting a 22-250 Rem. and using the heavier bullets!
Any idea what the speed of the 100 gr 6mm bullet would be at 400 yards?
Any ideas on a more suitable cartridge fellas?
 

7mm-08

[stimpylu32]

A blind set at about 200 yards would help also , just let the deer get used to it for awhile and they will soon learn to see it as part of the landscape ,

stimpy

[Redhawk1]

243, 25-06, 270 7mm08. 

[billy_56081]

260 remington or 7mm-08 In a heavy gun should do the trick very nicley with very little recoil. If your friend is a stationary hunter 2 or 3 more lbs on the gun shouldn't make any difference. Both calibers offer alot of bullets with high B.C.s

[HL]

Tell him to get a 7Mag and put a muzzle brake on it.

I did that to mine back in 1984 when I was smaller and did not like the recoil. Now it has the recoil comparable to a 222 remington.

The brake I have was put on by Kleingunther, but KDF uses a similar brake.

No need to give up power just because of recoil. A good brake will do wonders.

[Gregory]

243, 25-06, 270 7mm08. 

I'd add the 6.5x55, 260 Rem, and 7x57 to the three listed above.

If the limit were 300 yds the .243 would do okay.

[hunter5325]

Most of the above ideas would work.  I'd just try and get closer myself, but that isn't what you asked.  If I wanted a 400 yard gun and I was recoil sensitive.  I would choose the 25-06rem.  You didn't say if he handloaded, but if he did - a 110gr Accubond doing 3200fps at the muzzle and sighted dead on @300yds would be just 9" low at 400yds.  That being said, there are a ton of variables that you must take into account when shooting at this range.  Don't just think you can aim 9" high all the time at this range and hit stuff.  A cross wind of just 8mph will throw your bullet almost 9" off course at this distance.  I will say though that with practice I've become very confident out to 500ish with a few of my rifles.  Good luck, Brett 

[41 mag]

I will go with the rest on the 25-06 up to the 308. IF your friend handloads, he has a great assortment of good bullets to choose from in all of those calibers which he can reduce recoil as well as have pleanty of punch when it arrives.

On the brake, they are great if you don't mind the additional noise associated with them. My friends 300 RUM is like shooting a 22-250 after he had one installed. It seems the faster you drive them the better they work. He might also incvest in one of the PAst Recoil Shields. I have one for some of the lighter weight rifles I have in the bigger calibers. They sure do help out with felt recoil on the bench.

On the long shots, he will need to do pleanty of practice, to be sure that when the time comes he can honestly be ready to handle it. Pleanty means several times a week for several months out of the year preferably to ranges as far or further than he expects to actually hunt. I would suggest using one trip to work with nothing but a .22 cal rifle to get his trigger control and such down, and the other day to work on his primiary huinting combo.You would be amazed at how much a simple .22 rifle will help you out when you start moving the target back on it. Once you get out to 75 or 100yds with the rimfire your looking at a whole new game. Then when you work with the high power rifle the training helps out dramatically. I have made several shots out past 400yds but only in near perfect conditions, or in a situation where I knew the load and rifle I was shooting inside and out. My 25-06 was one of the most accurate rifles I have ever hunted with. I had no problems hitting yotes between the eyes at over 300yds. My longest shot on deer was just over 400yds down a long narrow pasture. I took close to 5 minutes before I sent the round on it's way. The results was an instant kill as I had waited until I had the exact shot I wanted. THe 115gr Partition enterend the base of the neck, on the front of the left shoulder and exited the back part of the ribs on the right side. It took out the area between the neck and shoulders as well as the heart and the right lung.

My daughter now has my 25 and has used it to take several nice deer along with a few yotes and hogs as well. She would hardly weigh in at 110 on a cold day all bundled up. She would rather hit the woods with that rifle than anything else, knowing that she has the confidence and ability to cover anything we have on our place with it. She also has made one shot lills with it out to over 350yd.

On the other calibers, I have shot hogs out to 500yds using my daughters 6.5x55 loaded with the 140gr A-Max, with the .270 Win using several weights out to over 400yds at hogs, and several variants of 7mm rounds out to 450, then the 30-06, and .308 out to over 400yds on hogs. With the right bullets and putting them where they need to be, they will drop on the spot. Recoil from all of these rounds has never been to bothersome in the field, but a couple of them really do rock me on the bench. My little Ruger Compact in .308 only weighs 6.5# and has a 16" barrel on it. IT knocks the snot loose from me when I shoot it from the bench, but it has accounted for three of my biggest hogs, as well as taken two of them at ranges over 300yds. with one shot using factory Remington Core locks. If all of the above will drop a feral hog topping upwards of 300# they will definately put a deer down with the right placement.

Good luck and remember no matter which caliber he chooses, it only matters if he can reliably hit what he is aiming at. Other than that he might as well just take the camera. I did not get up one morning and go out and start shooting stuff at longer ranges than some, I grew up with it as there was no way to get closer where we hunted. It was flat hay field in heavily hunted farmland, and the deer didn't walk out and look the other way when you tried to get closer. I have hunted since I was 6 and now at 43, I am still learning things about it. It has always been my goal to get as close as possible, but I also wanted to learn to get the most out of my equipment for those times when all else failed, or there was no other option.

[Lead pot]

I have three favorite Deer rifles, one is a .300 Savage in the 99 and a .45-70 Sharps, and the reliable .444 Marlin all have just the barrel sights and I never felt the need to shoot a Deer over 150 yards.
The smaller 6 mm's and .25's high velocities have a place if they are loaded with the proper bullets, something that wont disintegrate just under the skin.
I hunt up in the UP Mich. and seen Deer hit with a .243 with a bullet designed for varmints that just blew up under the hide that I dropped with my .300 when it ran past me.
If you want to use a varmint rifle for deer use a heavy thick skinned bullet and forget that super high velocity, all that does is destroy to much meat and cripple the game.
And yes 400 yards is not necessary and too far in my opinion

Kurt

[wink_man]

To some, a 400 yard shot is way to long, and to others, it's very doable, I think it depends on a shooters skill, having a rifle capable of doing such, and his dedication to practicing at that range, being fully aware of what wind drift can do, hence the necessity to practice often, and in windy conditions as well as normal, so he knows where his bullet will be going and can adjust accordingly with wind conditions. As for the wheelchair stuff, well some people just haven't hunted eastern whitetails under pressure, but so much for that.

If your friend is as recoil sensitive as you say he is, he needs 2 things, a rifle with some weight to it, and a caliber whose heaviest bullet weight is about 120 grains, making the 25-06 the ideal candidate. Hard to find a 25-06 in a rifle with some weight to it, so I'd reccomend a Weatherby Mark 5 Fibermark with a 26 inch #2 barrrel in .257 Weatherby Mag.

http://www.weatherby.com/products/guns.asp?prd=Rifles&prd_sub_type=1&prod_code=FBM257WR6O

The specs say the rifle weighs 8 pounds, but with the small .257 bore, it's more like 8 1/2. Topped with steel bases & rings and a 3X9 scope it will weigh over 9 1/2 pounds(mine weighs 9 & 3/4 on the bathroom scale) which will pretty much make recoil quite bearable I'm sure, even for him. And a #2 barrel with that small 257 bore makes for a very stiff, accurate barrel. I would assume he's stand hunting so weight shouldn't be an issue, and he needs the weight if he's recoil sensitive. The thing I like about the .257 Weatherby is that it launches the heaviest bullets in it's class faster than most rifles launch their lightest bullets. Decreased time of flight reduces wind drift issues considerably. A 257 Weatherby will launch 115 grain Nosler partitions at approximately 3,400 feet per second so you have a very fast time of flight along with a high quality bullet with enough sectional density to kill a white tail at 400 yards or beyond, even if the shot isnt quite perfect and you hit a front shoulder bone on the way to the lungs. While a 6MM with a 100 grain bullet will kill a whitetail at 400 yards with perfect shot placement, I wouldn't want to trust it to penetrate a shoulder bone at that range and make it into the lungs, even with a quality bullet. But again, as was stressed in earlier posts, it takes practice, a lot of it at those kind of ranges. The rifle is only as good as the man behind it, and he needs to practice and know what he can do with the rifle, and more importantly, can't do, depending on conditions. So your friend probably needs to make a decision as to wether he's willing to dedicate himself to putting in the time to practice at such ranges often, or if there is a way he can get closer.

[Lloyd Smale]

I like that lead pot! a good UP hunter using good UP deer rounds!!!! Up here youd have to about set it up intentionally to get a shot at 400 yards. The power lines are about the only places its possible!

I have three favorite Deer rifles, one is a .300 Savage in the 99 and a .45-70 Sharps, and the reliable .444 Marlin all have just the barrel sights and I never felt the need to shoot a Deer over 150 yards.
The smaller 6 mm's and .25's high velocities have a place if they are loaded with the proper bullets, something that wont disintegrate just under the skin.
I hunt up in the UP Mich. and seen Deer hit with a .243 with a bullet designed for varmints that just blew up under the hide that I dropped with my .300 when it ran past me.
If you want to use a varmint rifle for deer use a heavy thick skinned bullet and forget that super high velocity, all that does is destroy to much meat and cripple the game.
And yes 400 yards is not necessary and too far in my opinion

Kurt

[Chuck White]

Thanks guys;
Your comments should give him some more "food for thought" !

He has a 25-06 in a Weatherby VanGuard.  He's had it for over 20 years, but it doesn't get much use.
Maybe this will be just what he's looking for.

Lots of good load info in your posts.

Thanks again;

[NONYA]

Is "your friend" you?

[Chuck White]

NONYA

NO, it's not me!

During the 4.5 years that I was stationed in Alaska, I owned/used several of the big ones.
I had a Pre-64 Winchester in 375 H&H Magnum.
I had a Ruger and a Remington in 338 Win Mag.
I had an old Remington M-721 or M722 (not sure) with a Douglas barrel, chambered in 458 Win Mag.
I took game ranging from caribou to moose with all except for the 458.


I have several rifles that would do this 400 yard task.
I have a Remington M-700 BDL in 7mm Rem Mag that I've had for over 30 years and have taken game ranging from prairrie dogs to moose with it.
I have a 7mm-08 Rem M-7 which has taken I think, only whitetails!  But I don't remember how many.
My newest is a TC Encore Pro-Hunter in 280 Remington, only been shot 5 times just to see what it felt like.  Note: I don't have the scope mounts for it yet. , but maybe today!

[HOG HUNTER]

I agree with the other post it has alot to do with the placement of the shot, I have shot deer out of my stand at 335 yards with a Remington 700 BDL in a 6mm, I use 100 grain boat tail spire point. I have hunted deer with this gun for over 25 years & never had a deer get away after the shot, I also have a  300 WSM & 6mm-284, that will reach out 400 plus yards, but if I can't make the shot, they are no better than a 22

[Don Fischer]

 I think the bottom line is that there are a lot of 400 yd cartridge's. What's required is a 400 yds shooter.

[Castaway]

Move the stand.  It's a whole lot cheaper and I bet more productive as well.

[beemanbeme]

"recoil sensitive and wants to shoot long range".  Seems to me that he is gonna have to give up on one of those things.  Kinda like the fellow that sez I love my job but I can't stand the work. You can't have it both ways. Like Don sez, lotsa rifles but he's gotta spend the trigger time wehich he ain't gonna do if he's gun shy.
Why can't he build him a blind out of hay bales in the field at a reasonable range?  After the season, just remove the bales.  Or is he work brickle too?   
'course, if you're gun shy at 400 yards, you're gonna be gun shy at 200 or 100.

[Chuck White]

More good comments!  Thanks.

I think that through conversation with him, that he will build a 6X6 or 6X8 shooting shack either on wheels or on skids and place it about 1/2 way across the meadow.

I think he has convinced himself that he should use his 25-06.

I've also convinced him that he should get a bunch of ammo loaded up and start practicing as soon as the snow leaves.


Thanks again guys!

[jhalcott]

  another thing to do is get him into reloading. that way he can shoot more for about the same price. Have him set up some gallon milk jugs and shoot at them. Where he can hit them EVERY TIME is his range limit. These are bigger than the heart lung area of the deer in these parts but about the same as the ones in northern Maine. He can also have a break put on his Vangaurd. I had a stock weighed down with lead in the rear stock and barrel channel to hold down recoil. I think 400 yards is a long way to,but I have taken those and LONGER shots at times. Does it matter if the critter is a deer or a ground hog when you wound it?
  Another idea is to rechamber that 25-06 to a 257 Weatherby, put on a break,6.5x20 Leu scope and weigh down the stock. get a past recoil shield. NOW set the gun rest up on the kitchen table next to the coffee pot and pop those deer. AFTER a few hundred practice shots ! Always comes back to the practice.

[qajaq59]

A little camo netting and some sticks would enable him to get right on them. That would be easier then trying to hold a perfect shot at 400 yards.

[jhalcott]

 I was going to make a funny about the 200 yard extension cord for the coffee pot and TV but it's not neccessary!

[GANDER]

I agree with several other either the 25.06 or the 308. If it were me and I had to choose my 25.06 or my 308. I believe I would take the 308 over it because of the downrange energy. My 25.06 is no slouch but I would have more faith in my .308 with a "monster" standing at the other end of the field.

[Chuck White]

I was going to make a funny about the 200 yard extension cord for the coffee pot and TV but it's not neccessary!

I've heard that one before.

But in his situation, He's nowhere near his house to plug in the coffee pot and TV.
This field is located near the back end of his property and where the deer come out is just on the edge of his property, within 25-50 ft of the neighbors property.
No problem with the neighbor, they have a mutual understanding that if one gets caught on the others property, he'd better be on a blood trail that starts on their own property.