This thing might not be to bad...

[Bullseye]

Tried the new Savage MLII out yesterday.  Shot it with open sights for starters and it seems to shoot as good as the Encore that it replaced.  Think I will screw the scope bases on it now and mount my Leopold.

Missed not having a QLA, but I did not miss the crud ring, nonexistant blowback and shot it 20 times without ever swabbing the bore and accuracy stayed the same.  Also liked coming home last night and putting it in the safe and not worring about it, must be getting lazy in my old age.

Thought it would seem strange shooting a muzzleloader that did not smoke, but since you stiil go through all the same motions to load the thing it still felt like I was shooting a muzzleloader.  Plus since the wind was blowing in my face, I did not gag on the smoke every shot.

So far I am happy with my decision to change, now for some more testing.

[toytruck]

I would still clean it, won't take long to put a solvent patch, then brush through the barrel then an oil patch and wipe it all down.

[Biff Mayhem]

post deleted

[ottawa rogue]

ok, just to play devil's advocate a little.... if he were to charge his savage with goex or swiss, would it fit your definition of a muzzleloader?
i find it curious that you'd say that it isn't a muzzleloader just because it has the CAPABILITY to use smokeless powder.
just for the sake of curiousity, what if someone were to develop a sidelock or even a flintlock that had the capability of using smokless powder, would that not be a muzzleloader too?

[manofthe45]

If legal to use in your states ML season enjoy it in good health. If your state gives you that option I will not knock anyone for using it.  IMO- If you are asking if SP has a place in blackpowder hunting.  NO!  Would say more but than I might need to spend the next week modifying it so as not to offend.

[ottawa rogue]

Sorry guys, i got lost surfing this site, it's so huge and varied
the post i responded to was deleted, so therefore my reply is irrelevant

[toytruck]

I figured that.   I will bite though and say I don't have a problem with smokeless powder in muzzleloaders. VA. started allowing them last year. I don't own one and really don't need one the way my guns are shooting with triple seven.  I don't mind the extra cleaning, its all apart of the sport to me.

The type of powder doesn't make a difference as long as the gun is loaded from the muzzle.

[ottawa rogue]

i don't have a problem with it either, if you can use it go have fun

[Bullseye]

Wow, I was just trying to share my first experiences with a diifferent type of muzzleloader than I have used before.  Did not really expect the post to go down the "Is a muzzleloader that uses smokeless really a muzzleloader" path.

All I know is that I used the same bullet and sabot that I used in my Encore.  I screwed the same t-handle on the ramrod, poured the powder down the barrel (only difference was it came from a pre-weighed vial) and seated the bullet with the ramrod.  Then put a 209 primer in and shot the gun.  Seems like the same motions for any other muzzleloader.  Arguing about whether it is a muzzleloader because it uses smokeless powder would be like arguing whether a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader if it uses Sabots or conicals instead of round balls.  We all need to keep an open mind and realize that there are variations of muzzleloaders just like any other gun.  Some might have an interest in one kind and some might not, that is why they make different kinds.  And it is legal in my state, so I plan on enjoying it.

[ottawa rogue]

it's cool with me, Bullseye

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

I dont have a problem with it. Its still capable of firing blackpowder and subs. Lots of people can argue about what a muzzleloader is and what isnt but as long as its loading with loose powder, its a muzzleloader IMO. If all the pro's said a matchlock was the one and only real muzzleloader, im sure the sheep would follow the hearder.

[manofthe45]

  Arguing about whether it is a muzzleloader because it uses smokeless powder would be like arguing whether a muzzleloader is a muzzleloader if it uses Sabots or conicals instead of round balls. 

I double dare you to take that statement to the traditional forum.  scratch that I triple dare you.  Even if it is legal in your state they will lop off your jewels.  Like I said

If legal to use in your states ML season enjoy it in good health. If your state gives you that option I will not knock anyone for using it. 

[Redhawk1]

I don't have a problem with smokeless powder used in a muzzleloader, if that is what you want to use, go ahead. Some States don't allow them during BP season.
In Delaware our reg,s state black powder only, so I questioned the G&F and was told they don't enforce it if smokeless powder is used. So my question to them was, why not change the reg's, because if one guy wants to site you for it, he can. I did not get a firm response back from G&F.

At this time, I have no real interest in the Savage, but I may try one just to see for myself.

[simonkenton]

Welcome to the Savage club, Bullseye!
I didn't know they did away with the QLA. Mine has it, mine is four years old.
Anyway it is a great rifle. Give us the range report once you get it scoped in. Make sure your front base screw doesn't bottom out.
What load are you using?

[elkstalkr]

Bullseye,

Ignore the elitest that bash Smokeless, they are out there.  The "hardcore" traditional crowd is even worse than they are.  Ignore them too!  Although as you can see most inliners don't care, they just don't shoot smokeless themselves, which is cool, its not for everyone.

Obviously I shoot smokeless, got a Savage and soon an SMI.  Tons of fun, and for the reasons already mentioned they are just as much a muzzleloader as ANY inline out there.

You might try this forum out, if you haven't already found it.  http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/index.php   Tons of good info on here for the smokeless shooter, maybe the best resource on the web really, at least that I have found.

[simonkenton]

Here is a great forum for the Savage

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

[Bullseye]

I heard that they took the QLA off after the start because of a potential lawsuit.  Maybe T/C has the rights to it.

I used 44grs. of 5744 (the book load) with 250 and 300 gr. XTP's.  I will probably use the 300 grs. since that seems a better deer round in my mind since I used 240gr. XTP's in my Encore and always questioned the results from some deer shots.  The only reason I used the 240's in the Encore was they were 44 caliber bullets and they loaded easy compared to the 45 caliber bullets that needed beat down the barrel with a hammer.

I might try some IMR4759 powder.  Everyone on the other boards you mentioned seems to shoot it.  I went with 5744 at first because I thought it would be less temperature sensitive since it is a double based powder.  I have also read where the IMR4759 does good with 240 gr bullets but not always with 300's.  Have any of you tried the IMR4759?

I also bought some MMP orange sabots to try using the .458 300gr HP that are normally used for the 45-70.

You two are correct, there is a lot of good info on those other boards. Those folks are serious about their Savages.

And I must say to the one poster - that is why I posted it here and not in the Traditional Forums.

[manofthe45]

Relax man if you pull up my posts you will see I am not a serious person and that I like to pull peoples strings.  Opinions are like bungholes evryones got one and most people don't want to see someone elses.  when I said if its legal use it and enjoy I meant it.  I will always try to help to protect what rights people have.  I maynot always help to get it made legal but if it is I will try to help keep it legal.  I don't know if they are legal in pa and I don't care.  I don't plan to ever buy one, but please
enjoy yours in good health

P.S. I still hate the whole idea of a smokeless ML.  Where is the smell of burnt BP and where is the second your heart stops until the smoke clears and you know if you harvested your prey.  These are the things that keep me loading 2F.  If five minutes of cleaning is the cost for these things I will gladly pay it.

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

true, The smell of burning blackpowder just adds more passion to the heart.  I dont mind the cleaning either, Just gives me more time to look over my rifle and take note of things and become more formular with my rifle.

[toytruck]

With all that has been said above, we still need to keep an eye on the trad people way of thinking. Although I don't feel they will be able to accomplish what they really want, which is to outlaw inline and smokeless rifles, it really ticks me off of trads trying to change what I like to hunt with to conform to what they like to hunt with.   They are going to make things difficult for the rest of us muzzleloader hunters if we don't watch them, just look what they started in Idaho!

[elkstalkr]

P.S. I still hate the whole idea of a smokeless ML.  Where is the smell of burnt BP and where is the second your heart stops until the smoke clears and you know if you harvested your prey.  These are the things that keep me loading 2F.  If five minutes of cleaning is the cost for these things I will gladly pay it.

Thus the reason I stated that smokeless is not for everyone.  I enjoy hunting with a smokeless just as much as a smokefull, not everyone will.

As for a 5 minute cleaning I have yet to see ANY muzzleloader I can clean in 5 minutes, execpt the propaganda on TV which never turns out to be true.  At least clean to where I am satisified with it.  Even when I do clean my Savage it takes just as much time to clean it as my Omega and Rossi, I just don't have to clean it as often.

I have to be honest with you, it takes me just as much time to clean my modern inlines as it did my old sidelock that I started off with. 

[toytruck]

Yes sir, I agree 100%. The muzzleloader companies say cleanup can be done in 5-15 minutes to sell rifles. Alot of people don't clean them properly, if at all and so they need to buy another one when the barrels rust out.  Shame!!

[Buckskins & Black Powder]

Yes sir, I agree 100%. The muzzleloader companies say cleanup can be done in 5-15 minutes to sell rifles. Alot of people don't clean them properly, if at all and so they need to buy another one when the barrels rust out.  Shame!!

You could clean a muzzleloader in 15 minutes but i guarantee that its going to be a piss poor cleaning job. 30-45 minutes for me to clean mine and thats taking the bolt apart, getting into every nook and cranny. Cleaning out the trigger, which i have no idea why i do it when i never come out with any dirty q tips. Just one of those What ifs.

[simonkenton]

Well Bullseye you started with a classic load, 5744 and the 250 XTP. I think the 300 XTP is a great deer bullet, you will get good expansion and probably pass through penetration.
I hit a deer in the chest with the 250 XTP and got a 4 inch entrance wound. Bullet traveled 14 inches and came to rest under the skin.
I had to switch to the SST because I like to get the hides tanned.
I may give that big XTP a try.

[Bullseye]

One bad thing about the smoke comes to my mind.  This year I took a shot at a doe one morning after it had poured rain for two days.  On top of that I shot through a small opening in some thick stuff in front of me.  It was one of those shots I had a bad feeling about from the Boom.  When the smoke finally cleared in that damp confined space there was no deer standing where I shot.  I looked farther up the hill and a doe was standing there.  My first thought was wondering if that was the deer I shot at or if there was another one that I had not seen.  Anyway all I found was white hair and a minimal and short blood trail.  Assume I shot low and tickled her belly, like I said it was a good shot setup, but it felt bad when I pulled the trigger.  Anyway, I sure would have liked to seen how the deer reacted at the shot and known whether the one standing on the hill was the one I shot at.  So while I do agree the smoke is a unique part of it, there are some advantages without it.  And no I am not being testy about it, just sharing another thought that I have.