Author Topic: Range Report, as promised!  (Read 1926 times)

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Offline quickdtoo

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Range Report, as promised!
« on: March 04, 2007, 05:16:31 PM »
Made it to the range today, first time since November, as I figured, being the only range open in the county and a nice Sunday after quite a spell of bad weather, it was busy, very busy!! Got there at 9am when they opened, by 9:20, there were 6 shooters waiting for a bench on the upper range where I needed to shoot at 25yds since 4 of the 6 rifles I brought had only been laser bore sighted.

Got those done and moved to the big 100 to 300yd range, set up my chronograph and posted 6 targets on my target frame. Today I brought the 7mm-08 and .500 S&W Handis, .280 Improved, .300 WSM, and .35 Whelen Ultras and a CVA Optima Elite 7mm-08.

Started with the  .300WSM since it was the last one shot on the 25yd range. Normally I would have shot 50yds also just to make any correction to make sure I would be on at 100yds, but because of the crowd waiting on the short range, I  moved directly to the big range, mistake, first round never cut paper, so I aimed for the center of my 6 targets and found I was 10” high, made adjustments and aimed for the target that I hit with the second round.

Accuracy with the .300WSM didn’t come until I got near the max loads I had made of 74.6gr which was much later in the day, started at 71.5gr and worked up in .5gr increments. By that time I was getting very tired and the recoil of the .500S&W and .35 Whelen loads were taking their toll, but I was able to get 2 out of 3 shots touching with 75grs of Magpro under the 150gr Ballistic Silvertips at 2940fps, but the barrel release was getting sticky, no stuck brass and no flat primers, so I need to check the latch out, may need a little smoothing or it’s a pressure issue which means I can’t go any further with warmer loads.
The good news is the action still locks up as tight, so it appears my underlug fix works!!

I continued my load work with the  225gr TSX loads thru the 35 Whelen Ultra, got a real nice 1” group, (not as nice as Matt’s!!) with 62.5gr of RL15 at 2867fps  which is a max load by Barnes’ standards for the TSX which is 1.5gr over a 225gr X-bullet load. Primers were starting to flatten, but I got no stuck brass, probably could go a little more, but I don’t see the need, it’s already a thumper load, compare that to .338 Win Mag velocities!!!

The .280 Improved Ultra shoots the 160gr Accubond real well, a near start load of 58gr IMR 7828 at 2740fps gave me a great little .570” 3 shot group. The data is for a .280 Ackley, but mine is chambered a fair bit larger so I still have a ways to go before reaching the potential of this cartridge.




The 7mm-08 Handi showed some promise with the 140gr Fusion ammo, but shooting the 130gr Speer BT didn’t seem to pan out as well as I hoped, 1” was the best I got with it and them, but the worst part was the first round from a cold barrel was always away from the 2nd and 3rd shots which were real close to touching, so I need to work on the forend some, I think.

The .500S&W Handi was a disappointment, I shot the 350gr XTP on top of Lil’gun, velocity was good at over 2100fps with 38.5gr, but accuracy just wasn’t there, 4”-6” groups was the best I got so far. Max is 42gr, so I still have some more shooting to do, but the recoil was getting uncomfortable at that point in the day, so I quit on it, up to that point, I had shot 141 rounds in 6 guns, the recoil of the Whelen and Smith being substantial!!

The CVA Optima Elite was also a disappointment, the handloads that I made for it were primed with Rem 9½ primers, 2 out of the first 3 didn’t go boom, even after a second hammer drop, very deep pin strike, but no fire. So I didn’t get to shoot handloads thru it. Did shoot some Rem and Fusion 140gr factory thru it, 2-2½” groups were the best it would do, I even tried a washer to float the muzzleloader forend, but no great improvement, I might have to get a centerfire forend for it, or work on it to make it work.

For the most part, it was a successful, but loooong day, got there at 9am, punched out at 4:10pm, and my shoulder is a bit sore, shoulda put some weight in the Whelen stock and put a Limbsaver on it. ::)

Tim






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Offline cbourbeau32

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2007, 08:27:16 PM »
Thanks for your range report Tim. I am encouraged by your 7mm 08 report as I will be taking mine out soon with some hand loads. On your 500 S&W did you shoot any light loads? This is the only load I plan to shoot in mine for now. Charlie
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Offline burntmuch

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2007, 01:38:20 AM »
Hey Sounds like a great day. What kind of group do you think the 500 is capible of (Not just yours, but any 500 Handi) Is a 4 inch group that bad.   Jay
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Offline eskimo36

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2007, 02:04:47 AM »
My scoped(Nikon 3-9x) 500 shoots about 1.5" at 50 yards with light (10 gr. Unique/440 gr LDGC) loads. 1.5" groups with a .500 hole is almost a cloverleaf. 
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Offline bigjeepman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2007, 02:18:08 AM »
A very good report, Tim, as always. The 141 rounds fired through six guns is a lot of hard work for one man to do ... but we all do what we have to do sometimes. I have never fired a .35 Whelen or a .280 but I own a .300wsm and have fired a .500 Desert Eagle handgun and they are both a handful for me. You surely bought some ice on the way home for the shoulder? One of the advantages of my area is that my friend's gunshop has a 25, 50, and 100 yd range outside the back door that hardly anyone ever uses.

.300wsm ... I have tested MagPro, RL19, and H380 in my Model 70 Win. I have tested these powders with Nosler 165gr BT, 180gr BT, and Sierra's 175gr HPBT. The best loads I came away with were the Nosler 165gr BT with both RL19 (64.5gr) and H380 (60gr). This is with a 24" barrel with a 1:10 twist so I am not sure how much this info helps.

7mm-08 Elite ... I do not understand why the primers didn't ignite with very deep pin strikes. Any ideas? Where does the fault lie ... primers? ... the Elite's firing pin?

.280I Ultra looks very good ... you have a good shooter already but you apparently are going to be able to improve upon that ... wow ...
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Offline McLernon

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2007, 03:11:19 AM »
Great report Quick. I look forward to posting a range report but I don't know when it's so cold aand windy in southern Ontario with snow and ice abounding. Meantime cabin fever deepens.

Mc ;D

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2007, 05:28:02 AM »
Charlie, no light loads, I'm not of that mind set. :D

Jay and eskimo... John Taffin got ¾" groups with the 350gr Hornady loads at 25yds, Ideally that would equate to 3" groups at 100yds, so I think 4" isn't good at all, but I've not given up yet, I also had some 440gr CPs loaded up with Lil'gun, but didn't take them with me, I'll shoot them and the rest of the 350gr loads, 39-42gr, next time.

Bigjeepman, the reason I'm using Magpro is it provides lower pressure, start loads are at 43.4kpsi compared to 50kpsi for all other powders that show pressures. As for the primers, I just think they're duds, I don't think there's any problem with the Elite, it fired the Rem and Fed factory ammo fine. No ice, real men don't need ice!! ::) Doesn't feel bad this morning, in fact, I forgot about it until I read your reply!! It's a little brusied, but I've abused my shoulder a lot more before!! :-[

Mc, it was real nice to get out there even tho it was quite a circus in the morning, by 1pm, a lot of shooters were gone and there were several empty benches. The weather was nice, partly cloudy, no wind.

While cleaning last night, I took a look at the latch shelf on the .300WSM barrel, it wasn't perfect, had heavy contact on the left and right side, but very light contact in the middle. Honed it just a little so it has even contact all the way across, maybe that will solve the sticky barrel release. I'll drop back a step or two with some more loads, plus some more with heavier charges in .5gr increments and see how that goes.

Thanks,

Tim

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Offline carbineman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #7 on: March 05, 2007, 05:51:18 AM »
quick wrote,As for the primers, I just think they're duds>

I would almost expect that as well. With that deep of a primer strike, it could be nothing else except, high primer seating(doubtful) or no powder but then the primer should have lit up. I'd like to know what you find if you pull the loads as Remington is the only primer I have heard of that has never had a problem. This of course is just anecdotal word of mouth among a fairly large group of reloaders.

I use lots of Remington and have never picked an abnormal looking one out of the primer tray. I did pick some rare abnormal primers from the other brands though, when inspecting them for use. I look over everyone in the primer tray with my flashlight for abnormalities before loading them into the primer tubes that goes with the Rockchucker press.

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #8 on: March 05, 2007, 10:13:11 AM »
Quick

About time someone gets to shoot  ;D , your 500 sounds like my 450 , more of a pattern than a group  :o , hope it gets better for you .

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Offline myarmor

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2007, 10:38:12 AM »
Nice report Tim. Thanks for sharing.
Sound like your 280 is showing some real good promise there. I look forward to hearing more on this one as I too am considering this down the road. Whats not to like about it ??? ;D

That WSM is an interesting project, and I am glad to hear how things are moving along. It's in capable hands I believe, and it sounds like you are being real cautious with it. By the way, this was done with a 308 standard contour barrel if I remember correctly right?

Mac's report down in the CVA forum is excellent, covering the difference between Muzzle Loader and Centerfire barrel forearms. Looks like thats the culprit for the 7-08 not performing I believe.

Keep us posted how thing progress.


-Aaron

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2007, 10:56:56 AM »
Thanks carbineman, I'm gonna pull all the loads and see if I can see any difference in em and primers from a different batch. These were loaded in Win brass, maybe I should just be glad they didn't burst into flames like holy water on a demon!! :o

Me too Stimpy, that's the worst shooting  Handi I've worked with, it can only get better!! :D

Aaron, the .300WSM is a rechambered standard 22" .308 Winchester barrel.

Thanks,

Tim

"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline carbineman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2007, 11:10:41 AM »
quick, I know what you mean about using Rem primers in WW brass. (the reloading Gods are watching)I do that for some of my 30-30 loads. I use to keep Rem primers at first so I could always tell the difference between Fed,WW,and CCI (silver colored) vs. Rem (gold colored) but now WW has gone to the gold plating as well.

I am slowly clearing out the Fed and the WW and will just stay with mainly Remington and some CCI that I have that are a bit oversized for worn primer pockets. I like all and have used all the various brands, but just want to simplify my loading components. I have done so with my bullet selection where possible also.

Thanks, I will be waiting for your findings.

Offline Fred M

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2007, 02:43:48 PM »
Tim.
My 257 Handy did the same, made agood primer indent but no fire. The hammer spring was worn soft. Put in a new hammer spring solved the problem. Had nothing to do with the primers.

75gr of Magpro must be a full case? Wow a 308 does 3000ft with 40% less powder with a 150 gr bullet. But your pressure is quite low at 52k.
Fred M.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2007, 02:49:55 PM »
Fred, the hammer spring in the OE works fine on other loads, both Rem and Federal, just those handloads that I had problem with.

75gr is only a mid level load, start is 72.5gr @ 43.4kpsi, max is 80.5gr at 54.8kpsi and 3222fps in a 24" barrel, but I doubt I'll get to a max load, if I do without setting the underlug back or sticking brass, I'll be amazed. :o

Tim
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2007, 03:04:30 PM »
Tim.
Your case must be a lot bigger in H2o. I show 78.99 gr H2o to overflow, and the case is full with 75.0gr Magpro. Can you measure a fired case for me, please.
Fred M.
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Offline bigjeepman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2007, 03:16:23 PM »
You want a fired .300wsm case filled to the top of the neck with magpro measurement Fred? I only have Winchester brass.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2007, 03:18:44 PM »
83.6gr is the water capacity.
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Offline DalesCarpentry

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2007, 03:30:43 PM »
I have alot to learn on the tech. side of things here. You guys loose me alot sometimes. If you want to know how to build a house from the ground up I have alot of great information there. I am looking forward to the day I can really contirbute to this form in the tech. way. I think for now I will just sit back and read and learn.
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2007, 03:49:56 PM »
Tim
I am still a bit shy, but a lot closer. Is that a fired case?

83.6H2o, 105% fill ratio, 80.3gr Magpro, 3194 ft/s. 24" barrel, 54369psi.
92.66% powder burnt. 150g Nos.BT. Seated 0.300".
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2007, 03:52:27 PM »
Yup, just measured it, filled to overflowing, that QL is a nice guesstimate to give you a starting place, but it doesn't replace the reality of hands on load work. :D

Tim
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2007, 04:20:17 PM »
Bigjeepman.
Sorry, but filling a case with any kind of powder would not help, unless you have the water capacity of the case to the mouth to compare with.

Most all ballistic and powder calculations are based on the water volume of the case expressed as H2o. Usually measured using a fired case because that is the closest correct internal volume of the case.

When using different brass cases you can get a quick idea of weighing the cases you want to compare with one you have the H2o. The difference of weight divided by 8.6 will give you the difference in H2o. For instance one case weighs 175.0gr the other weighs 181.6gr diff. is 5.6gr divided by 8.6 = 0.65gr H2o.

0.65gr H2o would mean you can load, depending on the specific gravity (SG) of the powder, a little more or less powder. Most powders run between 0.92 to 0.98 SG.
Fred M.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2007, 07:49:15 PM »
I pulled the Accubond/Rl19 7mm-08 loads today, primers all looked like they should be good, but the decapper may have destroyed the real culprit which I'm thinking may have something to do with the fact that they're compressed loads. When I poured the powder out, then looked in the case, there was powder jammed into the flash hole on almost every one of em, it may have damaged the primer, anyone ever have this issue with compressed loads with Rl19 or other extruded powder? The reason I'm thinking this is I used Win brass which holds .6grs less water than Rem brass which was called for in the Nosler book. Other than that, I don't know what was wrong other than just bad primers. ???

Tim
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Offline carbineman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2007, 10:58:22 PM »
When weighing the brass after trimming both to the same length the Win brass should weigh less, being that the outside has the same dimension. Do you have and Rem brass to compare weights?

Do you think that the force of compression backed the primers out somewhat?

I'm not sure if the compression and subsequent force of the powder could damage the anvil in the primer or not.

I use all ball type powders and I'm thinking the powder must be  entering the flashhole entrance as well. I'm not so sure it would back the primer out of the primer pocket but if you have a somewhat stretched primer pocket, the primer might move somewhat.

I notice after some repeated heavier than normal loadings on one caliber I load for, the Remington primers I have will slide into place with little resistance on my Winchester cases. I then switch to the CCI's I mentioned that are slightly larger in diameter and use the brass for another couple of loadings.


Offline handirifle

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2007, 04:52:45 AM »
Tim
Two questions.  The first I may have missed somewhere, what is a 280 rem Ultra improved?

Second, did you really make a 300 WSM barrel for a Handi?  How well has the frame held up and how much have you shot it?
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #24 on: March 07, 2007, 05:28:32 AM »
Carbineman, the primers didn't back out, I made sure of that before I finished loading them, if they did, I wouldn't be able to close the action. The primer pockets are fine, I reprimed them with Fed 210 primers. The Win brass weighs 163grs, holds 54.8grs water, Rem 168grs, holds 55.4grs water.

Handi, the 280 Improved is an Ultra, had it rechambered by Wayne York last year. Technically it's an Improved-Improved with a 40º shoulder since the chamber is considerably longer than a 280 Ackley, it holds .9grs more water than standard .280 AI Nosler Custom brass which is what I'm using. It's way too long to load factory ammo in, even the .280AI brass has about .050" headspace!!

And yes, I have a .300WSM barrel, it's the infamous one that was rumored to have stretched the frame in 10 shots, but in reality, it only set the underlug back in 100 shots, the frame was fine, the original owner, Handi35, still has the original frame and is using it with the other barrel. See Underlug Improvement in the FAQs for more info on it. So far, I've shot it 27 times working up a load, still tight, locks up tight on a .001" feeler gauge blade. ;)

Tim
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Offline handirifle

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #25 on: March 07, 2007, 08:43:28 AM »
Quick
Wow,
These frames are more suprising every day.  I'm dense I guess ,but what is the original brass for your ultra?  Sorry for being so thick.
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2007, 08:48:01 AM »
If you mean the .280, I'm using Nosler Custom brass, they also have it available on their seconds page, I have a bag of it too, but haven't worked with it yet.

Tim

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=5&s=14
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Offline carbineman

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2007, 01:36:29 PM »
That Rem brass must be a bit thicker in the web area and thinner the rest of the way up.

Are you thinking it was indeed the pimers or could it have been a sticky firing pin or transfer bar? Did this happen with your first few shots?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2007, 01:45:05 PM »
I agree on the brass, the web is only place where I can't measure unless I cut one apart,  all external measurements are the same.

I seriously don't think it's the gun, I shot several rounds of Rem factory loads before the defective handloads, and a whole bunch more of it and the Fusion after I got the duds. I had pulled the firing pin when I first got it to make sure it didn't have any black powder fouling in it since it has a BP forend on it, it was clean and oily, I cleaned it and the housing and dry lubed it and the t-bar.

Tim
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Range Report, as promised!
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2007, 02:37:21 PM »
Tim.
It has to be the primers, either too hard or contaminated. It could be the hammer spring or head space? I think you can dispel the idea that powder compression will damage a primer. Powder will get into the flash holes but the cross section of the hole is so small as to exert any amount of pressure on the primer to cause damage to the primer, me thinks?

Take a couple of empty brass prime them with the same primers you used in your reloads and fire them. I do that with hunting loads all the time just to make sure they go bang.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.