Author Topic: cannon barrel making lathes (Read 2890 times)

Don Krag · « **on:** March 05, 2007, 06:28:21 AM »

So....if I fold down all the seats in the wife's minivan I think I can swing it. Anyone in the Illinoise area that could help me load it up?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140092755617&fromMakeTrack=true

Of course, I'd have to move some furniture around to get it into the spare room here.

There's a lot of large lathes on ebay right now. Some arts school is auctioning off about a half dozen 13 x 36 Clausing lathes. Somewhere up in Indiana.

Rickk · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:26:57 AM »

fold down the seats in the wife's minivan?

You may have missed one little but still critical sentence in the description ...

"Machine weight approx. 14,750 lbs"

Don Krag · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:38:52 AM »

No problem...we just put new tires and shocks on it.
I'd have to flag the 8' or so that would be hanging out the back, though.
Might have to put some counterweights on the front bumper, too.

Double D · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:16:26 AM »

I tried to tell the wife I need this...she said what for...I said you have more than one purse don't and she said "no!' That ended that.

GGaskill · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:19:48 AM »

Even if you got the thing for the current $0.01 bid, the transportation would kill you. But it does look like a good one for full scale cannon making.

Actually, I have a long two-axle boat trailer you are welcome to use to haul the lathe. Just drive a thousand miles to southern CA to get it and bring it back.

Your time has to be worth something.

seacoastartillery · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:20:44 AM »

Quote from: Don Krag on March 05, 2007, 07:38:52 AM

No problem...we just put new tires and shocks on it.
I'd have to flag the 8' or so that would be hanging out the back, though.
Might have to put some counterweights on the front bumper, too.

Don,

Here's a hint for happy hauling. First transfer that hitch from your truck to her mini-van. Then hook up that 4x8 utility trailer you have for log hauling. PRESTO! A large lathe load-equalizer!! No problem...........Put a little extra air in those 8" trailer tires and your all set to go. Good luck.

All of us here can understand why you don't want to scratch the bed of your pick-up. The carpet in the mini-van should cushion the load, right??

Tracy and Mike.

Rickk · « **Reply #6 on:** March 05, 2007, 09:45:49 AM »

Don't forget you need a CDL to tow a trailer over 10,000#.

Rent a big flatbed instead. You don't need a CDL on a truck up to 26,000# GVW (although you may come close... have to find a big truck with a 11,000# empty weight.

Artilleryman · « **Reply #7 on:** March 05, 2007, 01:50:57 PM »

I assume that you have a shop with enough room, and a hoist to get your material on and off the lathe.

CU_Cannon · « **Reply #8 on:** March 05, 2007, 04:25:16 PM »

For something that length I would probably put it on the roof of the minivan. You would even out the weight on the tires and it wouldn’t stick out as much.

Rickk · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2007, 12:34:56 AM »

Can you take a picture of it? I already have one at work of a guy with a ford tauris that had an entire bale of plywood loaded onto the roof of his car. Note that that did not work well

Don Krag · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2007, 04:28:20 AM »

Well, we're in the process of reflooringa 20 x 22' room. My wife said it would make a good craft room for us. I figure what would go with the craft room theme better than a giant metal lathe! I'm sure I can find other uses for the 440 3 ph power I'd have to string in as well.

Hmmm....the 49 CFR regs on transport would pose a bit of an issue. However, if I went with Tracy and Mike's idea and put ~7500 lbs in the minivan and 7500 lbs on the little 4x8' utility trailer I should be able to circumvent those. The trailers rated at 1500 lbs, but I'm sure there's a safety factor built in, so 7500 lbs should be ok as long as I slow down around turns.

On the much more realistic side of things.....My wife's cousin who lives down near us has a cabinet shop and has expressed interest in owning a metal lathe on the order of 13 x 36 or so. I might be able to work a joint deal with him on something slightly larger like a 13 x 48 or so. I should forward him the above link for fun! Hah!

Way back when I started grad school I got to visit a DOD funded lab that was doing rail gun experimentation. They had a lathe that was used by Germany during WWII to make some of their huge cannons. It was about a 3' chuck face and at least 25' between centers. It had a chair and such mounted for one of the operators to sit on. I wish they would have allowed cameras in there...it was impressive!

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2007, 05:09:59 AM »

Don't worry about 49 CFR and the CDL requirement as long as you don't drive commercial and the lathe is for personal use you don't need a CDL, at least under the CFR. You state might say something but I doubt it.

I really think you worry is closer to home, you get grease the seats in the wife's mini van you are going to be in so much trouble.

Don Krag · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:55:40 AM »

Nah...we have 7 and 3 yr old boys. All I have to do is grease up the 3 yr old with some of my wife's sewing machine oil and let him in the van. I'm sure she'd believe it. In fact she would probably take full responsibility seeing as how she should have had better control over her own items!

Yeah..right...I can't even type that without laughing out loud!

Cannonmaker · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:56:52 PM »

Perhaps you could get a axle off a old one ton Dulley, chain it to one end of the lathe, the front axle to the other end, weld a hitch as to stear the wheels on turns and hook to your mini van. Hows the brakes? The Lathe should be built heavy enough to be its own trailer. You would be the talk of the town when you pulled in (expecily if you had a mostly finished tube in the chuck).

I better be carefull what I say, someone may try to do just that.

Rick

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 07, 2007, 12:33:58 AM »

Hauling this by PULLING it is too much work, takes too many permits and licenses.

Side-step all that and have it air-dropped from a C130.

GGaskill · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:43:32 AM »

In case anyone is serious about this machine, I received the following info from the seller:

The machine requires 575V, 29amps. Motor is 2 speed, 875-1740rpm. 14/ 26 hp // 21/26 amps. I have run this on 480 3ph without any problem.

How long it ran on 480V was not stated.

Don Krag · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2007, 09:29:18 AM »

How would you go about wiring up 575? I've seen a lot of 440/480v 3-ph motors at campus auctions and used a few when I did some machinist work, but I've never seen 575 or any other oddball voltages.

The auction said it was available to be viewed under power, so I'd assume it was still running. Although, how efficiently the motor was running wouldn't be inherently obvious.

I doubt I'll ever have the need....but how do most residential electric utilities handle power requests? I had heard once that you had to be zoned commercial for some of the 3 phase stuff. Other than simple 1 ph stuff, I'm pretty electrically ignant.

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2007, 10:07:11 AM »

575 volt machines tend to come from cloth mills where they have some tradition of that voltage. It should be possible to find a transformer or a Variable Frequency Drive that could produce 575V output from the more common voltages. I have 3 phase on the pole but the power company wants a minimum usage that is absurd for them to bring it on to my property. So I use an idler motor to convert single phase 220V to 3 phase 220V. The third leg isn't completely perfect but the machines run at full power and are reversable.

The process works well for relatively small motors but starts getting out of hand around 10 HP.

guardsgunner · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2007, 11:07:27 AM »

2 speed motor with the slow speed at 875rpm? Little fast for most canon operations don't you think?

GGaskill · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2007, 11:43:26 AM »

That's the motor RPM. I'll bet the slowest spindle speed is something around 1 or 2 RPM. Maybe even less.

entsminger · « **Reply #20 on:** March 08, 2007, 06:34:48 AM »

I'm really lathe ignorant compared to most of you all but I have been looking at e-bay to buy a big lathe to make a cannon barrel such as this one. Assuming most of the lathe functions properly would this be a good lathe to get to make cannons? Is the brand good? I've always heard bigger is better and this certainly seems to be big enough to make most cannons short of a rodman? What might it cost to convert it to run on 220?? I'm sure shipping to Va. would be the real killer?

Scott Springston

GGaskill · « **Reply #21 on:** March 08, 2007, 07:51:49 AM »

Bigger is better to a limited degree. A large lathe like this one would be a pain to use to make small cannons from 4" diameter steel as its top RPM is probably well under 100. But it is certainly appropriate for making full size field pieces and maybe even some coastal artillery. Remember you need twice the bore length plus a little to be able to drill the bore.

Shipping is probably going to cost more than the machine (unless the buyer is local.) I would guess at least a grand to get it to Virginia plus some additional cost to unload it. That is on top of the $250 the seller wants for loading it.

And don't forget that you will need some tooling to do the work and big tooling isn't cheap either unless you can find it surplus.

NOTE: I just looked at the listing again, this time more closely, and the length is "only" 11.5 feet. Since Napoleons and Parrotts and Ordnance rifles are all at least 6 feet long, you may have to do some creative tool holding to drill one on this machine.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #22 on:** March 08, 2007, 12:34:06 PM »

Scott -

Here and there you'll find a machine shop that has some older but much larger equipment. There is one such near where I live. One of their lathes is a vertical lathe that will swing a diameter of at least 4 or 5 feet and go perhaps 5 or 6 feet high. I'm not sure if it would do both at the same time but it might.

Then too, there are machine shops that go out of business - it's a national trend that more and more machining is done on CNC equipment and those shops that are small just can't compete. There is the opportunity for equipment AND TOOLING at good prices.

GGaskill · « **Reply #23 on:** March 08, 2007, 01:00:40 PM »

I'm not sure that the small shops cannot compete anymore; I think their former customers are no longer producing in this country and therefore are not subcontracting to small local shops.

entsminger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 19, 2007, 02:57:16 AM »

So did anyone from this forum actually buy the big lathe mentioned earlier? If so I'd like to hear about your experiance.

Scott Springston

Don Krag · « **Reply #25 on:** March 19, 2007, 06:33:38 AM »

I saw that it sold for about $3K. Even with shipping running the same, $6K isn't a bad price if you have the set up for it. I was kind of curious what it'll be used for. Hopefully by the end of August, I'll be in a situation to get something. Nothing this big...but a 13 x 48 or similar. That seems to be the upper limit of 1 ph machines. I'm not a big fan of phase converters on big motors.

GGaskill · « **Reply #26 on:** March 19, 2007, 09:03:28 AM »

I'm not a big fan of phase converters on big motors.

You will probably not be a fan of single phase motors on machine tools either. They tend to have a pulsating effect that puts strange patterns on the finished surface. Using a phase convertor to start an idler motor is how my shop is set up and it makes the use of three phase motors little harder than single phase but you get the advantages of the three phase motors.

entsminger · « **Reply #27 on:** March 20, 2007, 02:14:25 AM »

George, is there anything you don't know? You continue to amaze me with your vast knowledge of machinery , cannons etc etc...Would you be so kind as to give us a little story about what you do and how you know what you know? I really need a neighbor like you so I can hang over the fence and spend some time asking my dumb questions about cannons ,machines etc before I go out a buy some lathe that is totally innapropriate for the task.

Scott

Don Krag · « **Reply #28 on:** March 20, 2007, 04:54:25 AM »

What size motors are you running off that? I've used them on motors in the 1.5 - 2.5 Hp range with good results, but it seems like when you get up over 2.5 there is a definite drop in efficiency/power when using a phase converter. ie...a 3 hp motor on a phase converter system only seems to give the power of it's equivalent 2.5 Hp motor on "standard" 3 ph. Have you ever noticed anything like this? I don't remember the specifics of the converter, These were big 6" belt grinders and similar equuipment.

I've never noticed any pulsating induced surface effects, but I've never used one on a machine that would have made the effects either. My complaint with single phase on larger motors is electricty consumption/amperage/heat especially on starting, etc. Of course, that's why most larger motors are 3 ph and not single!

We'll be moving probably in the next couple years. I'll have the shop set up on a different meter/pole and have 3 ph brought in direct. I can write off a portion of it as a business expense due to some of things I build our company.

What are some brands you would recommend on converters?

GGaskill · « **Reply #29 on:** March 20, 2007, 10:31:48 AM »

My setup uses a Phase-A-Matic static convertor to start an unloaded 5 HP, 3450 RPM 3 phase motor which acts as a motor generator. My machines are a Logan 2 HP lathe, a 1 HP Bridgeport, an old 1.5 HP Leblond lathe and some other stuff. The nominal design says that the idler motor should be twice the HP of the largest motor you are starting by itself. Once one other motor is started, it contributes to the power available for starting the next one. Since I am a one man shop, that really doesn't make much difference for me.

There are electronic devices called Variable Frequency Drives that can be placed between the power line and a 3 phase motor that give you a great deal of control. They will even take in single phase power and output 3 phase.