Author Topic: .243 problems today (Read 2083 times)

henry1 · « **on:** March 05, 2007, 06:01:57 PM »

well guys, i am sure glad that i had my target stands in the truck today. I was disapointed with my reliable .243 today. I cant blame it though. I shot about 25 rounds at some pdogs today after my class got out and finaly started seeing some dirt fly so i could tell were i was hitting. with 15 rounds left i put my stand out and let some fly at about 170yds. not good. (i dont have the recipe in my room, but i do remember that they were 60gr seirra hps with 43gr of imr 4895, I think. not positive.) so i walked back out and moved the stand to 100yds. this time i was able to get er all centerd up. by that time it had clouded up and with me walking around like an idiot all the dogs went home for the day. i also noticed that by .243 has a slight wobble between the barrel and the reciever. its not much at all but it still does it without the forearm on.

I read earlier about a guy with the same prob. and he had to send his baby off today. I dont want to do that. the rifle has shot good for me in the past. i shot my doe this year at 190yds in the head and last time i shot it off the bench(last oct) it shot great and i was verry pleased with it. I wont get it to the range untill april somtime. thats when they say they are suposed to open it up. I also had a primer mishap or somthing. one shell stuck bad, it didnt kick anyworse than the rest no other signs but the primer was mashed bad( iwill have to get pics to you guys another time. the camra is still in the truck). the only thing that i saw different about this case was that there was some green stuff built up on the outside of it like it had been left in a leather belt for a long time. I have cleaned this case before and couldnt ever get the gunk off so i figured that it wasnt a surface thing. but now im having second thoughts. the primer also made a little crater in the receiver by the firing pin. will try to get pics of that too.
Thanks guys. (sniff) please help me with my sick kid.
Henry.

Ok here are the pics of the damage.
Henry.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** March 05, 2007, 06:13:27 PM »

If the barrel is loose in the frame when it's locked up tight, it needs to go back to H&R for replacement of the barrel. Make sure there's no debris on the frame or barrel including the latch and latch shelf to keep it from locking up completely. If is is indeed loose, it isn't going to shoot accurately at all.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,113319.msg1098354608.html#msg1098354608

henry1 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 05, 2007, 06:24:48 PM »

I did take it apart and wiped the oil off the latches and stuff, it locked up a little tighter after that but the wiggle is so little. how do you kno if its too much. you realy wouldnt be able to tell unless you put a drip of oil on the spot were the barrel and receiver lock up. Today i was able to hit a 3X3" target at 100yds without a bench, proper elevation and comfortability.

I duno i would really like to shoot it out at the range before i take it in. What would you think about the primer and the crater in the receiver?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** March 05, 2007, 07:20:20 PM »

As you can see from our replies in the other thread, NO looseness is acceptable as far I'm concerned. I don't understand whatcha mean by crater in the receiver, craters in the fired primers is a bad sign if too much headspace which could be caused by a loose barrel since the gap between the cartridge and the standing breech is too much. See the barrel fitting instructions in the FAQs on how to check the gap with an automotive feeler gauge blade. A properly fitted barrel will lock up tight on a .001" or .002" blade so it can't be pulled out.

Tim

henry1 · « **Reply #4 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:26:43 PM »

ok thanks quick. I will have to see if my dad has a feeler gauge when i go home on fri. if he dosnt do you think autozone or a place like that would carry em? if i do have to send it back i just might have to get another barrel. somthing with open sights though. I am open for suggestions on this. so let me know what you guys think. something for plinkin maybe some small game stuff. I realy want a .22 but they cant put one on a SB2 frame right? Thanks.
Henry.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 05, 2007, 08:37:33 PM »

Yes, automotive supply stores have feeler gauges. The 22 Hornet would be a nice choice that has iron sights. You can buy an entire 22Lr Sportster for $117 at Walmart or Sportsmans Warehouse. A rimfire barrel won't work on a centerfire frame. You'd have to buy a second hand Versa Pack barrel or one of the 3 barrel combos to do that.

Tim

henry1 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:13:45 AM »

ok, thanks quick. .22 hornet might be kinda nice! I have a Q on the shimming process for the barrel. so when you have your feeler gauge and your ready to put it on the barrel, how do you bend it just right to fit in the lug spot on the barrel? Thanks.
Henry.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:16:58 AM »

At your stage of the game, the feeler gauge is only used to determine how the barrel fits the frame, if it's as loose as you describe, you should send it to H&R for repair, have them pay for shipping too! It would be a great time to add a barrel or 3, and get a trigger job if needed.

Tim

henry1 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 06, 2007, 06:32:09 PM »

Hey i posted some pics of that shell. I was unable to get down to the Police Station today but hopfully will get there soon for a pic of that crater.
Henry.

mt3030 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 06, 2007, 06:45:30 PM »

henry1:

Are you sure the primer was properly seated in the primer pocket?

Is there any void on your breech face that would allow primer metal to flow into?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 06, 2007, 06:47:15 PM »

What kind of brass is that? Looks like milsurp!!

henry1 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 06, 2007, 06:50:48 PM »

hey mt, as far as i know it was seated flush with the pocket, but im not sure if there was void on the breech face before that shell was fired. all i know is that there is one there now. I will try to get pics of that soon too. hopefully i can get some pics of it tom.

and yes it is some old military brass, i have some new brass but have also been using this old stuff just for plinkng and for pdogs ect.

mt3030 · « **Reply #12 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:50:26 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on March 06, 2007, 06:47:15 PM

What kind of brass is that? Looks like milsurp!!

Yep. Old Twin City Arsenal. Don't see it very often now days. It was good stuff. Just had to watch the neck thickness. Some was too thin to hold bullets good. But that was easy to figure out the first time you reloaded it.

mt3030 · « **Reply #13 on:** March 06, 2007, 07:53:23 PM »

Quote from: henry1 on March 06, 2007, 06:50:48 PM

....all i know is that there is one there now.....

If you have a void (hole) that big in your breech face, it MUST go back. And they owe you a new action.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:02:49 PM »

Quote from: mt3030 on March 06, 2007, 07:50:26 PM

Yep. Old Twin City Arsenal. Don't see it very often now days. It was good stuff. Just had to watch the neck thickness. Some was too thin to hold bullets good. But that was easy to figure out the first time you reloaded it.

Thanks!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** March 06, 2007, 08:03:19 PM »

Quote from: mt3030 on March 06, 2007, 07:53:23 PM

If you have a void (hole) that big in your breech face, it MUST go back. And they owe you a new action.

And a new barrel!!

henry1 · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2007, 07:31:10 AM »

Well i mean how much of a hole are you thinking there is? i spose its more of a dent or divit than a hole. nonthe less i realy need to get a pic of it on here.

tvc15 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2007, 12:32:23 PM »

I know I will get blasted for this, but you can place a shim where the barrel pivots and I will lock right up. I will tell you it will be a verrrry thin shim, I actually used a piece of paper. This was a quick fix and it would be worth to buy some paper thin shim stock.
Having said all that if it is a new gun send it back.
good luck, TVC15

henry1 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2007, 12:56:40 PM »

Well i guess it is pretty new, i got it the the gf in october. I was able to run away to the prarie this afternoon to shoot at some pdogs. I got some pics of the receiver. I also tried the .243 barrel on the .233 receiver and it fits up right snug. I dont like it that way but ill get used to it, if i ever put it on again. anyways, thats it. have at it guys. is it bad enough to send in? Thanks for the help.
Henry.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2007, 01:38:20 PM »

Henry, I'm gonna have to say that the only thing I think that would cause that is too much pressure, waaaay too much pressure. How did you work the load up using the milsurp brass?

Tim

henry1 · « **Reply #20 on:** March 07, 2007, 01:56:46 PM »

it wasnt a verry stout load i dont think. i will have to check my loading log at home or if i have time i will check my loading tag on the box. i dont know what the deal was. the whole while i was shooting a mixture of brass and sighns from the primer after the first 3-4 shells didnt show any pressure sighns of being to high. What is the experation date on primers anyways? Just curious. that happend darn neer the end of the box. (a box of 50). I didnt think much of it untill after i got to looking at the primer. and before that i shot some 55 gr Noslers out of it. What is the max pressure for the .243 in the Handi? What would it be with 43.5 gr 4198(i think this is the powder but then again i willhave to check for ya.) and a 55gr Nosler Bal Tip?
Thanks for the help fellas. If i do send er in will they pay or reimburse me? How do you send it? Through an FFL?
Thanks again. Hank.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:09:21 PM »

Contact them to make arrangements to have it repaired, you can send it by mail or UPS, but for both, you can't just ship it at any of their offices, post office must be a first class office, UPS must be a Customer center, neither can be one of those that are in other stores.

The SAAMI MAP for the 243 is 60kpsi. I don't see any data in any of my books for 4198 of any kind used in the .243.

Tim

trotterlg · « **Reply #22 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:46:35 PM »

My first thought when I see the pictures of the breach is that the rifle was dry fired so much that the fireing pin cracked the breach face from the inside, then a hot round pushed the cracked part back into the frame. The crack appears circular, just what you would expect from the fireing pin hammering away from the inside. Don't shoot this thing, you are very close to getting a fireing pin and part of the breach back through where the hammer is supposed to be, it would probably miss your eye, but you cheek would take a beating. Larry

bigjeepman · « **Reply #23 on:** March 07, 2007, 02:53:44 PM »

Henry ...

In your first post you said you were using a 60gr Sierra HP with 43.0gr of IMR 4895. The max load for this is 40.8gr of IMR4895 according to Sierra'a V Edition Reloading Manual. In your last post, you said you used a "mixture" of brass. Then you said you "thought" you used 4198 powder in your last post ... which Tim pointed out isn't listed for use with the 60gr bullet for a .243. It is my opinion you are playing with fire as you either used a powder not even listed for the bullet weight or you loaded over-max loads unless I am really missing something here.

Military brass also has thicker walls increasing pressure when using load data for standard commercial brass.

Fred M · « **Reply #24 on:** March 07, 2007, 03:20:48 PM »

43 gr of 4198 would be more than a proof load and would damage the rifle.

43gr 4895 would be ok at 54.3ksi. But with the use of milsurp brass with the lesser volume could easy turn this load above 60k.

trotterlg · « **Reply #25 on:** March 07, 2007, 03:33:09 PM »

Fred: Look at the picture I enlarged, the breach is cracked, nearly half way around the fireing pin. Larry

henry1 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 07, 2007, 03:47:15 PM »

Ok fellas, easy. I will not shoot it anymore untill it gets fixed. thank you for letting me know. as i said before, i am a student in college. all of my reloading books and data and log books are at home.(200 miles south of here. I will be there on friday though.) So with that said i cant exactly tell you what the load was, but i can tell you that it came from a .243 book. it was about 7 bucks, ive found em at numerous outdoor shops, ex, cabelas, sportsmans warehouse, gander mountain and bass pro just to name a few. its less than an inch thick and a company has taken all the info from all of the major leading brands for one paticular caliber (of your choice depending on what one you choose to buy) and made a small book of it. On friday at the latest im sure that i will have more answars for you, but untill then i can only tell you whats in my head. I dont think that the powder was 4198. I was looking at some old targets i had in my room from last october and even though these were different gr bullets i do beleive that the powder was/ has been IMR 4350. I shot 42 gr pwder with 85 gr hpbt sierras, 39gr pwder with 90gr sierras, 44 gr pwder with 70 gr sierra hp, and 42gr pwder with 70 gr sierra hps. This would lead me closer to thinking (not knowing till i get home.) that my charge was 42 or 43 gr of IMR 4350.

Fred M · « **Reply #27 on:** March 07, 2007, 05:42:10 PM »

Trotterig.
I did not see that picture. It's a disaster. The firing pin is spring loaded and is sort of free floating. It had to bottom out since the hammer notch hits the frame and there is play between the transfer bar and the hammer.

I think the pin seat was bored out too deep, because that piece you can see looks aweful thin sticking out past the standing breech. With a pin too long and too much headspace the bottom of the hole could take a pounding.

This action is toast, for sure.

trotterlg · « **Reply #28 on:** March 07, 2007, 06:05:06 PM »

I hope NEF makes good on that one, it doesn't look like it has had that many rounds through it. Only time I have seen something remotely like that is a shotgun that had been dry fired a lot and the metal around the very edge of the fireing pin hole had swedged out a little, it only took a little stoning to fix it. This one is scary. Larry

Mac11700 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 07, 2007, 06:45:11 PM »

3 grains over max in old milsurp brass...and a chance of wrong powder being used.....

Give thanks to God,that it didn't let go and held together and no one was hurt...A costly lesson I am sure it will be...but one you will remember from now on...

Mac