Author Topic: Cause of jams  (Read 2701 times)

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Offline J-Train

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Cause of jams
« on: March 08, 2007, 10:14:02 AM »
Being new to 1911's I could use some help from you veterans.  My new Taurus PT1911 is giving me some trouble with jams.  The fired case does not eject fully, and is jammed between the bolt and the edge of the ejection port.  The case gets a bad dent in the mouth where it jams against the edge of the port.  The jam is easily cleared by locking back the slide, ejecting the magazine, and picking out the damaged case.  Yesterday I had six such jams out of 150 rounds fired.

This must be a fairly common occurrence, since the malfunctiion is even described in the pistol's manual--but it doesn't tell why it happens.

Any advice or help out there? ???

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 02:39:04 PM »
In recoil operated pistols, "limp wristing" them will absorb recoil and cause the jam very often. Try the same ammo with a locked wrist.
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Offline canon6

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 07:11:15 PM »
What smokinjoe said and may I add are you using a two handed hold,are you pushing both arms straight out to your front.I know this sounds like 1st grade stuff but it is important   Doug
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 01:01:29 AM »
J-Train:  The grip is one issue, but so is your ammo.  Six fte in 150 rounds may indicate poor quality ammo but see if tightening your grip helps first.  It sounds as though your slide is not going back far enough for the case head to impact against the ejector.  Could be grip, could be ammo.  Mikey.

Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 10:28:24 AM »
Thanks, guys.  It's probably my grip.  Most of the jams occurred after I had been shooting for some time, and I was really concentrating on my sight picture and probably got lazy on my grip.  My earlier experiences with this jam happened when shooting for group off a bench, and I know I tend to hold the gun loosely when I do that.  It makes sense that Taurus would mention this type of jam in their owner's manual.

As for the ammo, they were my own reloads and I'm pretty careful with those. 

Sounds like I have a good excuse to spend more time on the range!


Offline williamlayton

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2007, 03:40:58 PM »
OR springs.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 11:40:08 PM »
My 1911s had better go off whether im squeezing the crap out of them or my girlfreind with her little hands is shooting them. I dont buy into the limp wristed excuse. If the guns not feeding right it needs to be adressed so it feeds all the time. First thing id try is drop to a 15 lb wolf variable rate spring, polish your feed ramp and try a good magazine like a wilson or mccormick. This will cure 95 percent of all the ills with a 1911. Also make sure your using a good quality lube and not be stingy with it. I like tetra grease on the rails and tetra oil on everything else. Do these things and give the gun 300 or so rounds to settle in and id about be your problems will be in the past.
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Offline jimster

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2007, 03:40:16 AM »
I don't agree with the limp wristed thing either. If you have to squeeze or hold a 1911 a certain way to go off, I'd not count on it to protect my life. If there are 1911's out there that go off no matter how you hold them , and there are, then every 1911 can do this with some tweaking.
I'd want my 1911 to feed and extract regarless if I'm holding it with a good grip, or if I'm very weak and hurt badly.
I'd do what Lloyd suggested first, if you still have problems after that you can look at something else, but they can be made to run with any grip.

Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2007, 09:26:20 AM »
Interesting comments.  Note that I didn't say it wouldn't go off, just that there were jams on extraction.   I'm used to shooting a T/C Contender handgun in .30-30, and I'm in the habit of letting my wrist and elbow absorb recoil.  It's pretty commonly agreed that a semi-auto held loosely will sometimes fail to fully eject, but I had forgotten that fact.  My Taurus has never failed to fire. 

It will be some time before I get to the range again, but I'll report in when I do and see if I can duplicate the jams on purpose, then correct the problem with a better grip.

Offline jimster

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2007, 11:44:05 AM »
I guess I meant extract...my fault

But I still don't agree with the limp wristed thing. I also don't agree it's commonly agreed on that a gun will fail to extract with a loose hold, but I do agree there is a huge myth out there. I look at it this way...if there are 1911's that will extract no matter how you hold them, then they all can. That's more of a fact really. I've had 1911's that nobody could make fail, and I've had them fail to extract on occasion, after much investigation I have fixed those. I've seen guys hold a 1911's with just thumb and trigger finger where the gun almost flips out of their hand, and they can't make it fail to extract.
I'm not sure of all the liitle details that make a 1911 totally reliable, I'm no expert, but I have replaced and adjusted extractors also to help make sure extraction is reliable. 
All I was really saying is, if there are 1911's that will extract no matter what kind of grip...then let's think about what combination of things are different about THOSE 1911's. 




Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2007, 10:38:37 PM »
I agree with Jim. A gun should go off and run reliably with any hold. I shoot mine left handed upside down sideways just about every position and if it doesnt function right it gets fixed till it does or gets sold.
I guess I meant extract...my fault

But I still don't agree with the limp wristed thing. I also don't agree it's commonly agreed on that a gun will fail to extract with a loose hold, but I do agree there is a huge myth out there. I look at it this way...if there are 1911's that will extract no matter how you hold them, then they all can. That's more of a fact really. I've had 1911's that nobody could make fail, and I've had them fail to extract on occasion, after much investigation I have fixed those. I've seen guys hold a 1911's with just thumb and trigger finger where the gun almost flips out of their hand, and they can't make it fail to extract.
I'm not sure of all the liitle details that make a 1911 totally reliable, I'm no expert, but I have replaced and adjusted extractors also to help make sure extraction is reliable. 
All I was really saying is, if there are 1911's that will extract no matter what kind of grip...then let's think about what combination of things are different about THOSE 1911's. 




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Offline Mikey

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 12:41:45 AM »
J-Train - I'm sorry, I overlooked the (rather important) detail about the pistol being new.  If you have good quality ammo just go shoot the snot outta that thing and it will probably loosen right up for you and start acting properly.  What you describe is a shell casing not being extracted far enough to the rear so the case head hits the extractor and is kicked out.  This can easioy be due to a new gun needing a break-in. 

Put a couple of hundred rounds through it and see if the problem clears up.  Mikey.

Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 03:35:50 AM »
Thanks, Mikey and others.  I like your idea about "shooting the snot out of it."  It's had about 300 rounds through it now, and had its first take-apart cleaning.  Now if I can just find time to sneak off to the range... ;D

Offline Questor

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2007, 06:35:38 AM »
I think your loads are too light to cycle the slide. Try adding a one or two tenths of a grain of powder.
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Offline 35Rem

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2007, 07:13:56 AM »
"I think your loads are too light to cycle the slide. Try adding a one or two tenths of a grain of powder."

Terrible advice not knowing what load is being used.  What if this guy's at or above max already?  Add more powder?  Uh, no.  Please don't give this kind of advice blindly.
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Offline Questor

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2007, 10:12:05 AM »
It's actually really good advice because it will probably solve the problem. It's up to the recipient to know whether it constitutes a dangerous condition with his particular loads. By the way, you may want to avoid the handloading forums because all the advice there is equally blind.
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Offline 35Rem

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2007, 10:59:39 AM »
How about if the load being used won't cycle the action, then maybe a different load, then maybe a different (lighter) recoil spring for the initial (prefered?) load, instead of more powder?

Still don't think "more powder" should be an answer without knowing load data.

To get back to the topic, Sounds to me that, as others stated, shoot that pistol.  If it's that new it needs a workout.  It will probably clear up.
Also, did you give it a good cleaning before shooting?  The factories often leave a lot of protective lube on them that can gum them up if left on.
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Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2007, 07:56:11 AM »
OK, I'll clear up a couple of things.  I'm using 4.8 grains of Titegroup with a 200 gr. SWC bullet.  It's a bit light, but it did have the jam a couple of times with a heavier load using 231 powder and a 225 gr TC bullet.

I did clean it well before firing the first time, so it's not due to factory gunk in the action.

Now, a new question:  Anyone have an idea what weight springs Taurus is using in their 1911?  I'm sure a lighter spring would help.   The empties are not ejected very far, but I like that since it's easier to find my brass (I once had a Ruger P-90 that threw my empties into the next county--a heavier spring solved that).

Offline Smokin Joe

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2007, 08:53:07 AM »
No idea. Contact Wolf Springs at :

tech@gunsprings.com

They might have the info
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Offline Mikey

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2007, 09:50:16 AM »
J-Train:  Hold on the spring change on a new gun.  The factory spring weight for a 1911 is 16-18 lbs, the Taurus 1911 should use the same weight springs.  If your 200 gn load with Titegroup was a bit light you may be creating your own problems.  I don't use Titegroup and don't know the load range for that powder but I load 200 gn slug to about 900 - 950'/sec or better to get them to function properly in my pistols.

You're breaking in a new gun with light handloads.   You mentioned a heavier load with WW231 powder and a 225 gn slug.  What was the load??  Factory powder charges using 231 and 230 gn ball are at 5.6 gns - the Midway loadmap shows charges to the 6.3 gn level depending on the particular 230 gn slug.  I would check my load data to see if my handloads matched that level of performance.

If you continue to use handloads you should be sure that with any particular weight bullet your loads are at least as fast as the factory loads for your pistol to work properly.  You mentioned that your pistol jams when the case fails to eject properly and gets caught in the ejection port.  That is usually due to a light load not sending the slide all the way to the rear so the case head contacts the ejector forcibly enough to be thrown clear of the ejection port.

Whenever I break in a new semi-auto I usually put about 500 rnds of mil-spec ball through it before I begin playing with handloads.  If I can't get my hands on mil-spec I handload using factory load data with fmj slugs to make certain the pistol breaks in properly. 

I would check my loads first.  These pistols are designed to function with ammunition that provides high enough pressure levels to enable the semi-automatic action to work properly.  Light loads will cause jams  unless the pistol is modified somewhat, usually with lighter springs.  I don't recommend lighter springs when you are breaking in a new gun.  HTH.  Mikey.

Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2007, 08:50:09 AM »
Mikey, I'm with you on not changing the springs.  My load with the heavier (225 gr) bullet, by the way, was 6.0 grains of 231.  Most of my shooting has been with that load and with the Winchester cheapo hardball loads from Wally World.  That light load is very accurate in my gun, but I think I'll "kick it up a bit" and see if a little more powder (within published data) will help without hurting groups.  I do fully expect the pistol to become more reliable when it has been shot more.  It seemed quite tight right out of the box, and I'm ok with that.  I'll post a progress report when I can get to the range again.


Offline WILDCATT

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2007, 07:05:29 AM »
one thought I have not seen is hardball.have you shot hardball?did it function? I like colts and AMT.my load is 700x with 3.6gr  and 200gr swcL  functions all my 1911s.why these other powders ?factory is bullseye. ::)

Offline Mikey

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #22 on: March 19, 2007, 03:24:42 AM »
WILDCATT:  Thanks for the reminder about hardball.  I know I mentioned breaking in my pistols with about 500 rounds of hardball/mil-spec/fmj but I neglected to recommend that for j-train.  Sooooooo:

j-train - get yourself a case of mil-spec ball and shoot the snot outta that gun.  Also, Gun Tests Magazine just ran a test of the Taurus 1911 and one problem they found that attributed to jams they encountered was the magazine.  When they swapped magazines the jamming stopped.  However, their jams were not the same as yours - with their jams, the stoppages showed a round halfway out of the magazine.  Your jams are failures to properly eject. 

I still think your problems are ammo related and recommend you pick up a bunch of GI Hardball.  Get a couple of extra mags too, and shoot that thing.  Mikey.

Offline 1911crazy

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2007, 12:22:38 PM »
Forget the lighter reloads  go out and get some russian wolf 45acp ammo and shoot the snots out of it.

If your using moly or a gun grease on the slide use less.  I have noticed that having too much can slow the gun down during cycling too but having the correct amount will speed the gun up like in less cycle time.  Its very noticable that once the fired round case leaves the chamber the next round is already locked in there its that fast.  Its so fast i'll bet you can shoot an iron pig twice while the first recoil is still present.

My new auto-ordnace army 1911a1 ww2 copy worked flawlessly right out of the box for over 250rds.  I had no stove-pipes nor jams and its my first 1911a1 to do that from brand new.

Offline Dee

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2007, 12:53:27 PM »
Factory slide spring poundage is usually 16. After I do a reliability tune, I usually install an 18LB spring unless requested not to. The 18 sends the slide back into battery slightly faster, locks up better, and dampens recoil somewhat. A limp wrist usually results in a fail to feed but, extraction is usually not an issue. This is common in polymer frame pistols such as the Glock 17 in 9mm, and a few other models chamber in minor caliburs. Before anyone starts yellin how reliable their Glock 17 is, I spent 19 years on a Police Range as an instructor, and I never met one I couldn't intentionally jam using a limp wrist. I'm not tryin to insult your weapons, it's just a fact I ran across real time.
Now back to the 1911. Like they said, grease the rails. You can pay for expensive greases or use lithium grease, both are as good as the other, and many times the same indifferent packages. Same on disconnecter. Take note whether it jams using all you magazines or just one. Ejection most times is traced to a bad magazine or possibly a mis-shaped extractor. An auto pistol should not be carried for protection until it is capable of firing 200 rounds consecutively without a malfunction. And I don't mean cleaning it every fifty rounds or so. Also remember, revolvers wear and go out of time, while auto pistols shoot in, and get better. A lighter recoil spring will only batter the frame, so leave the factory in for about 800 rounds, and then change. I use Wilson 18 lb springs and change them and the recoil buffer out at about 1000 rds. Some don't like buffers and claim they cause jams. If it does, its the pistol, not the buffer. Over time it will save the receiver, and takes some of the shock out of the frame during cycling.
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Offline John R.

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #26 on: May 04, 2007, 06:16:46 AM »
I use Titegroup all the time,its a great powder. 4.8 grs. is max for a 230 gr. bullet. You should be ok with that in a 200 gr.also. If you keep having problems you might want to bump that up to 5.0 grs. :)

Offline Savage

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #27 on: May 04, 2007, 08:00:59 AM »
Hope by now you have your function problems worked out. I agree that anything mechanical needs a bit of break in for the parts to mesh together smoothly. Like others on this thread, my 1911s function no matter how I hold them. I believe yours will too after you get some break in done. Haven't had the problem, but bet the failures to eject malfunction is more common on a new pistol. I have a Taurus 1911 with somewhere between 5-7 hundred round thru it with zero malfunctions. From what I have observed, this is typical.. The 1911 platform pistols often require more of a break-in period than say a Glock. This is primarily due to the length of the rails on the design. The Glock has four little steel rails about a half inch or so long. The 1911 has rails
about 3.5" long on each side of the frame. (5" Pistol) Like others have said, run some full power ammo thru it and I'd bet it will iron it's self out. By the way, my Taurus mags will not lock in on the two of my 1911s that I have tried. Funny thing, all my other mags work fine in the Taurus.
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Offline J-Train

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2007, 03:05:48 AM »
 Savage, thanks for the reply.  This forum has been really helpful to me.   My functioning problems with the Taurus have smoothed out.  I may have bought a particularly tight pistol.  I've put about 600 rounds through it, with no malfunctions in the last 150 or so.  I've been shooting a mixture of Blazer Brass and handloads (225 gr. lead TC with 4.7 gr. of Titegroup and 200 gr. lead SWC with 5.0 gr. Titegroup--my gun loves the 200 gr. load). 

In addition to the factory mags, I use one Chip McCormick and three Wilson Combat mags, and all function well.  I wish the factory mags were stainless.

Offline Dave1

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Re: Cause of jams
« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2007, 01:04:14 PM »
I read thru the feedback here with much interest because I have been tempted lately to buy a 1911 style auto loader.   After reading of the jamming and feeding problems, I doubt I would ever spend the money to buy one of these headaches.

In my opinion any and every gun should perform flawlessly regardless of grip.  If it does otherwise, it is defective.  Period.

Just my opinion.

Dave