You knew it had to come up.

[Mac11700]

Well...I have sold off most of my Handi's...and only plan on keeping a couple good representatives around...For those I am keeping..I think they show what can be had in them..if NEF was allowed to make improvements...I will say I don't get into the flag waving as many do...I look at quality first...not the nation of origin.,..

I'm not being defensive nor do I feel anyone is bashing them Andy...I do like to explain myself and my rational behind what I am talking about though...As to CVA copying the grip angle just to appeal to the Encore crowd..there may be some truth to it but probably as a secondary consideration... from what I was told..their stocks ares designed to be ergonomically correct for shooting and the grip angle reflects that..and to me that means they are more interested in the "feel" and function of them...than to appease everyone solely on their beauty alone Heck...I remember when Roy Weatherby came out with his stock design and what most folks were saying then... This isn't any different..I've always been one to try new things...I have even found a way to make my custom Handi's fit better...
You just have to have an open mind to something new..It doesn't mean you gotta like it...or have to choose 1 over the other...that's all

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

I would have to agree. Myself being a carpenter and now a contractor I sometimes have to do things the way I would not do them myself even though I have advised the other party the down falls to the way they want them done. After that it is on you just pay me.

Nobody likes to waste their money...but...I've seen this before with the NEF's...and most folks that have been here from the breakup of the old site has too...It isn't NEF folks...It's the people who are pulling the purse strings closed...and making the decisions...The good folks at the NEF plant can only work with what they are given...and there is the real shame of it and where the blame should be directed is to the company that runs them

The Elites are made right......The Handi's could be as well...but they would cost as much or more...since the Elites are being built on brand new state of the art computer controlled equipment...and to much higher tolerances

Mac

[DalesCarpentry]

Partsman I really was not aware  that they were made out of the country. I do believe we should keep as many jobs here as we can. When I started this thread I just wanted to point out another option for people That would lose their gun for a couple months if they sent it back to be fitted for another barrel. Also Andy no offence taken.

I think they are ugly just like the encore . (that may get a responce)
Made in the USA is very important also.
H&R has offered more calibers and choices than any other buget gun I can think of.
We should be greatfull.
Most of the bad guns NEF has made are calibers rossi or cva haven't even tried.

[McLernon]

I haven't read all the posts so maybe I missed something. Where are these CVA monstrousities made anyway?  The U.S.A. is Canada's largest trading partner and as a Canadian where a product is made, is a factor in my buying decision. If the CVA were made in Canada I would have to give it a second look. But man they ARE ugly.

And who says they shoot better than Handi's do? And don't think that just because they are made on new CNC machines they are better and that interchangeability of barrels is some kind of advantage with no down side, because it isn't. If you happen to be the person who gets the statistically certain rifle that is at or near minimum-material-condition you will get a wiggly gun just like TC more than occasionally produces. And it won't shoot worth a darn and the manufacturer won't do anything to help you 'cause the gun is within spec. Custom fitting the barrels, if done properly, will always give a tighter lock-up.

My$0.02 worth

Mc

[DalesCarpentry]

Hey guys. I did not mean to open up a can of worms here. I just think this is a real subject that should be talked about. I think the Handies are great reiliable guns for the money and American made. I don't want anyone having hard feelings toward anyone here.

[McLernon]

Hi Dale:

It's one Handi-holic to another here. This is a good thread and everyone is entitled to their honest opinion. I think the Handi has allot going for it but I recognize that I am biased in favour of it. As a mechanical engineer I really appreciate what the Handi is for only $279.00CDN. Add another$100.00 to the price and it wouldn't be so impressive.

At any rate this is ALL in good humor, right?

Mc

[DalesCarpentry]

Hope so I was trying to make enimeis.

[MZ5]

No enemies here, Dale.  I appreciate you taking the time to point out alternatives and options!

[Ditchdigger]

The way I look at it is that usually forigen copetition make's U.S, companies compete for the money,in better product's and other things. Why do alot of American car maker's alway's compare there car to a Mercedes or BM? I like the CVA's and my Handi's but the CVA does it with less felt recoil. It's more accurate than my Handi's but not as good as my bolts. It's kinda like CVA heard all our complaints on this forum,and put it to work in there rifles. They are without a dought the most comfartable rifle I've ever shot. They feel good when you throw them to your shoulder in the store,and they feel even better when you shoot them. Are they ugly? Yep,but so are just about every rifle made is thought to be ugly by someone.
If there's anyone close enough to me to come and shoot mine there more than welcome to come. (may even go hog hunting) Digger

[DalesCarpentry]

Ditchdigger I would love to come and shoot you rifle but you are several hundred miles from me.

[quickdtoo]

Digger, I would love to come down and shoot a hog or three with you and Lik2hunt, but that's a loooooong ways from me, I'd have ta sell a few Handis to afford the plane fair!!

Tim

[Ditchdigger]

Why,you boy's could alway's hop a highballin freight train and spend the wk.end. You could do the same at the P.D. shoot.(lots of trains go through Hooker) Just bring a 30 06 and we'll shoot the same ammo through both guns.  Digger

[Mac11700]

MC:

These fine built rifles are made in Bergara Spain..

Mac

[Fred M]

I bought two brand new Ultras one 25-06 and one 223. Both were a disaster when it comes to accuracy. So I even traded the 25-06 barrel for a 24" 223 bull barrel it too would not shoot. I tried very hard to sell both rifles but had no takers. So much for Handi's are good sellers, not here?

So they became a 257 Roberts and a 6x47 either one shot then with outstanding accuracy after spending over 550 bucks for the two rebore jobs. I now have two rifles that are accurate but keep shooting loose with consequent loss of accuracy, each one worth over $600.

You guys tell me do I have bargain or economical rifles. The thing is they keep on shooting loose when ever they decide they had enough shooting.

Two weeks before hunting season they 257 Roberts started to shoot all over the place. For the price what have I got, an unreliable hunting rifle?

On the other hand, over the years I bought four used Ruger #1 and 3# for $600 to $675 not a single one shoots groups over 3/4 inch. Even my Winchester Low Wall 17HMR shoots 3/4" at 100 yards. None of them have shot loose in 25 years.

I am talking about three out of three Handi barrels were totally sub standard.
CVC would not have to try very hard to beat that record.

Don’t get me wrong, that 257R is one of the nicest handling single shots I have, and I like it very much, and so is the 6x47. When they are tight and accurized they shoot better than some expensive single shot Kiplauf from Europe.

I am getting to be as long winded as you know who?

[DalesCarpentry]

Who!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mac11700]

You sure have had your fair share of aggravation with them Fred...That's part of the problem with them..sometimes you get a good one...sometimes you get a lemon..Of course we can say that about just about everything we buy now a days...

Mac

[Fred M]

Mac.
I know, but what burns my you know what,  is three lemons out of three. One good thing, if I had sold them I would have never been able to all the things I did to them and spent endless hours of reconstruction and ended up with two good rifles, notwithstanding the gap production

[hellacatcher]

One thing you can say about em they are good learning tools and they did find me some good friends. In this area in pawn shops they sell beat up used handies for new prices. If you try to traid one in most gun shops either don't want to give much and I had two to even tell me they didn't want em. I will say you can sell em to a individual for a good price.

[TLARbb]

Folks, I generally stay over on the Remington forum, but I like single shots and I saw a Handi that really peaked my interest, so I came over here to see what kinds of issues folks were or were not having with the Handi's or Ultra Varmints and this particular thread kind of makes me back up a little.  If NEF/H&R rifles shoot loose in 150 rounds or so, then I don't see much of an option  here.  I just don't see much to be gained by buying a rifle that wears that quickly.  (Now, I'n not sure I read that in this thread, but I did read it tonight in this forum.)

There was talk here about the CVA Optima, which is a bit more expensive than a Handi as I understand.  However, as far as cost is concerned, there is inexpensive and there is cheap.  Inexpensive does not have to be cheap.  The fact that TC is selling rifles for nearly 3 times the price as a Handi and for less than the price of a TC barrel, you can buy a whole H&R rifle, seems to indicate to me that another 25-40$ spent addressing the main issues of soft lugs and hinge pins/holes would make these rifles better and they would be supported by the buying public better (and I don't mean necessarily you Handi-holics).  After all, you can get a complete rifle for less than what TC asks for a barrel, even with the extra 25-40$.

It is tough for someone outside the "group of dedicated" owners to get past some of the issues I am reading about in this forum.  Specifically, it seems there is somewhat of a crapshoot whether the rifle you get will be a shooter or not.  And, if it is a shooter how long will it hold up to range use or just plain everyday hunting use before it shoots loose?  If I am missing something, please, by all means let me know what it is.

EJ

[Mac11700]

TLARbb:

I've owned a bunch of Handi's in my life...All of them have given me back every penny's worth of money I have spent on them...Here's the real 411 on them...You may get a lemon...you may not...Certain calibers are normally more accurate than others...sometimes just the opposite is true...They may shoot loose in 200 rounds...They may last you a lifetime and you can shoot several thousands of rounds thru it with out as much a a stuck case...you may have to carry a cleaning rod along with you every time you go shoot it because the case gets stuck in it every time you fire it...you might not ever get a stuck case.You may get an over sized mis aligned bore and chamber...You may get a minimum spec'd chamber..and bore smooth as a babies behind...

Are you getting the picture? Granted...many folks have had the same good luck with the Hand's I have had...many have not been so fortunate...If the fact that some of us long time cheerleaders for the Handi's are exploring other avenues gives you pause before purchasing one...let me say this...

This I can say with out any hesitation or reservation...If the fine Handi-holics here (myself included)can't help you straighten out any problems you may or may not  encounter along the way...I know for a positive fact those great folks who work in the Customer Service department of NEF can and will get err done right for you

How's that...

Mac

[ken2222]

What Mac said....and we've done it to ourselves!
Nuff said...
Ken

[TLARbb]

Mac:

I guess I understand what you are saying in your post, but I am not really too comfortable with a 50-50 chance.  I know you can get a lemon in any brand, but Fred said he was 3 lemons for 3.  Hopefully, his experience was unusual and the chances of getting a good shooter are much significantly higher than 50-50.

Specifically, the rifle I was looking at was an Ultra Hunter in .25-06 with the cinammon laminated stock and 25-06 barrel.  Aesthetically, it looks very nice for an inexpensiver rifle.  Now the .25-06 is close to a magnum case capacity for .25 and it is a pretty high intensity cartridge in factory loadings.  Any of you fellows got one of these and can say they have a good shooter with over a thousand rounds through it and no problems?  I like the .25-06 and currently have two of them (not H&R though) and owned others in the past.  That long barrel on the Hunter really looks good to me.

Are there any gunsmiths that cater to tweaking the handi's if there are problems?  Is the factory the only refuge if there are problems?

EJ

[Mac11700]

Mac:

I guess I understand what you are saying in your post, but I am not really too comfortable with a 50-50 chance.  I know you can get a lemon in any brand, but Fred said he was 3 lemons for 3.  Hopefully, his experience was unusual and the chances of getting a good shooter are much significantly higher than 50-50.

Specifically, the rifle I was looking at was an Ultra Hunter in .25-06 with the cinammon laminated stock and 25-06 barrel.  Aesthetically, it looks very nice for an inexpensiver rifle.  Now the .25-06 is close to a magnum case capacity for .25 and it is a pretty high intensity cartridge in factory loadings.  Any of you fellows got one of these and can say they have a good shooter with over a thousand rounds through it and no problems?  I like the .25-06 and currently have two of them (not H&R though) and owned others in the past.  That long barrel on the Hunter really looks good to me.

Are there any gunsmiths that cater to tweaking the handi's if there are problems?  Is the factory the only refuge if there are problems?

EJ

The 25-06 is a good choice...and also a good barrel to have re bored to another larger caliber..I've had several...I haven't put thousands of rounds thru any of them..but very close to that in my re-bored 25-06...I have re chambered and re bored it to 338-06A-Square..and to date with the 25-06 rounds that went thru it am knocking on 1500 rounds so far...It still locks up as tight as it did when I got it...it still shoots under 1" at 100 yards as a 338-06AS as when I first had it done..These aren't squib loads either...but full house loads...with the majority coming in at 60,00-63,000psi book value.

There are no certainties with any manufacture you'll end up with a trouble free rifle...so a 50-50 chance is all one can really ever realistically expect...However...some folks may want to  look at the history of occurrences here to determine if they are buying a trouble free product...The Handi...certainly has it fair share of these minor irregularities... but... quick tour of the FAQ's...and most owners have been able to correct some of the minor glitches that is prevalent most often these cases...Other times they are advised to send them back to the factory...

I can't say if there are any good smiths in your area who can work on your rifles...Most good smiths...have no problems working on them...

Will you get a good Ultra 25-06...most likely...out of the several I have owned...only 1 had to go back because of having a bad chamber and NEF replaced it for me...Most folks who get the 25-06's are extremely pleased with the accuracy of them.Most don't shoot loose...although some have had this issue occur...and saying they don't would be a dis service to them that have had problems...Most that do send them back...have been dealt with fairly and promptly...and a few refuse to send them back for 1 reason or another and have complained endlessly about them. Is all rifles typical of Fred M's...no...they aren't...Are all of them typical to mine...certainly not...Some of them...give close to Benchrest accuracy with nothing being done to them at all...Others with using every bench rest technique known still won't behave properly...Both of them are the extreme left and right of what one can normally expect from them..

If you aren't the least bit mechanically inclined...and have no intentions of hand loading...and if your wanting sub moa groups every time you pull the trigger with all factory ammo...Then the break action single shots aren't really the best platform...any of them...You and only you can know what your expectations are for your rifles...and the amount of money you will spend...does normally play a role in ones expectations...BUT..for the amount you spend on a Handi...and what you gain on it's ownership and being a member here...really far exceeds the actual monetary cost to many of us... Most here know this fact now...Most here know that the majority of them can and will shoot as good  if not better than most other type actions/brands out there if enough effort is put forth.Many have been willing to put forth the extra effort in mastering them...For others it has been an futile effort...and they can't. Others outside this country don't have the ease of sending them back to the factory to be worked on...and must rely on themselves or others to take care of any issues that come up...

If you want out a out of the box MOA rifle with a 100% guarantee for fit and function...expect to pay dearly for it...If you want an inexpensive platform for fun and fellowship...Then any of the break actions will certainly give you that...the Handi included...and you just might get lucky like I and many others have...and get a great one from the git go...Either way...you will not be alone and will be in good company here...and you won't have to pay a-lot to join 

Mac

[MSP Ret]

   TLARbb, I am sorry that as a new guy to this forum you had to get the impression there is a 50-50 chance with these fine guns....<><....

[Mac11700]

Andy...it's always a 50-50 chance with any gun you buy...You can up the odds to 50-50 with certain calibers and makes...but you can never say for a absolute fact that any rifle of any make or model will be 100%...nor can anyone on this forum say otherwise...Take the time and fully read what I have said about them...and the fine folks here and at NEF...If you can say other wise...do it...but don't say you feel sorry for him hearing the truth...

Mac

[MSP Ret]

I disagree completely with your following statement Mac, "it's always a 50-50 chance with any gun you buy". If the best you could do was a 50-50 chance that any new gun you buy was good then gun companies would go out of business very fast. Even the russian made guns with their problematic quality control do better than that. I have to say that is an incorrect statement at best and wonder why you would say it and what recent incident or change in feelings lies behind that blanket statement? You surely don't believe that do you, that fully 50% of all guns that you buy or are produced are defective in some way? Do you also believe that about all other items you buy or is it just guns and H&R's in particular that are no longer any good. You seem to have completely changed from liking them to disliking them in a rather short period of time, what happened all of a sudden to make 50% of all guns defective ?....<><....  

I have to say I myself do not know what keeps me coming back the this thread, perhaps it is just the desire to stand up for these fine guns against the recent attacks in favor of the CVA's. I do wish the recent pro CVA talk and promotion and anti H&R talk would be kept on the new CVA forum and we could discuss H&R's and NEF's in a continued objective and more positive light here. I realize this thread was not begun to be devisive and the member that started it has my upmost respect, however it has been turned into somrthing it was not intended to be, to the point of even telling a visiting GB member who was, and hopefully still is, interested in Handi Rifles that there is only a 50-50 chance of getting a good one!!! I have nothing against the Spanish CVA's, if you want to buy one and shoot it do so. Lets discuss H&R's and NEF's on this site and lets do it with an open and objective mind, not with blanket statements like 50% of all guns produced are produced with problems....<><....

[DalesCarpentry]

Andy you are rite. I never started this thread for people to bash Handies or vice versa. If I thought this would have happened I would have never started this thread in the first place. We are all adults here and I feel we should just let it go and even forget about this thread.

[nomosendero]

Well you new it had to come up. I have been reading the new CVA form and I think H&R NEF may have a real problem. I have been looking and reading about the new  Optima Elite. They don't have the barrel options the H&R have yet but if they shoot as well or better I think alot of people are going to lean that way. You can even get a 300 Win mag. and you don't have to send in your receiver and wait 8 to 10 weeks. The guns cost a little more but really not to much more. The barrels run in the neighborhood of $200.00 witch really is not all that far off from H&R after you take in to account for fitting charges and shipping. I will be watching this site to see what the range reports are like. I could see one in my future for sure. How do you feel about CVA and the  Optima Elite?

Dale, look at your last post & then reread your first post which I have quoted here. I know that you are new here & I have no doubt that you did not mean to start trouble, BUT you can't start a controversial subject & just hope it goes away as you are suggesting now. Try to think of what happens down the road with these threads, I still get a little over eager at times, but I am doing better.

It would be best not to go to the Handi & ask about a TC or CVA. And each forum should be done the same way. Right now you are a Handi user, just ask about CVA at the CVA site. I am not a Moderator, but it is just good manners.

MSP, the discussions that I have seen that compare the Handi to the CVA appear to be started by Handi users, why are they worried. I went to the CVA site & looked at the thread titles & one that questioned the strength of the Handi vs an OE was asked by a Handi user. It appears that the Handi users are alot more concerned about the OE than the OE users are concerned about the Handi.

I have been selling Forklifts & Industrial Equipment for 22 years & I am fortunate to have been trained by some great sales & marketing professionals. One thing that I have learned is if you have the best product to
offer, you don't have to worry about the comp. products. I don't put down other equipment, but I will say that the other product is good & show the better features of the equipment I offer. When you have the best, you can do this. All of this talk from Handi users that speak of the CVA being ugly, maybe unsafe even
though the Handi can't handle a magnum and the CVA can & similar topics that keep coming up on the NEF forum but not on the CVA forum could really make a person wonder if the Handi users are confident in their product.   

[Mac11700]

I disagree completely with your following statement Mac, "it's always a 50-50 chance with any gun you buy". If the best you could do was a 50-50 chance that any new gun you buy was good then gun companies would go out of business very fast. Even the russian made guns with their problematic quality control do better than that. I have to say that is an incorrect statement at best and wonder why you would say it and what recent incident or change in feelings lies behind that blanket statement? You surely don't believe that do you, that fully 50% of all guns that you buy or are produced are defective in some way? Do you also believe that about all other items you buy or is it just guns and H&R's in particular that are no longer any good. You seem to have completely changed from liking them to disliking them in a rather short period of time, what happened all of a sudden to make 50% of all guns defective ?....<><....  

I have to say I myself do not know what keeps me coming back the this thread, perhaps it is just the desire to stand up for these fine guns against the recent attacks in favor of the CVA's. I do wish the recent pro CVA talk and promotion and anti H&R talk would be kept on the new CVA forum and we could discuss H&R's and NEF's in a continued objective and more positive light here. I realize this thread was not begun to be devisive and the member that started it has my upmost respect, however it has been turned into somrthing it was not intended to be, to the point of even telling a visiting GB member who was, and hopefully still is, interested in Handi Rifles that there is only a 50-50 chance of getting a good one!!! I have nothing against the Spanish CVA's, if you want to buy one and shoot it do so. Lets discuss H&R's and NEF's on this site and lets do it with an open and objective mind, not with blanket statements like 50% of all guns produced are produced with problems....<><....

No...what I am saying is no one can ever be 100% certain any rifle they buy will be fine...No matter if they pay $250 dollars...or $25,000 dollars for them...Every manufacture has issues...Every manufacture has different guns and calibers that do better than one of their own in the same make. Period...Flip a dam coin and see which side comes up...I am not saying 50% of the guns will be bad...it's about the odds of him buying a perfect rifle......READ WHAT I SAID...If you have some magic way of knowing 100% of the time you will not get one Andy...Then share how you can...If you think for 1 second I am going to sugar coat all the issues the Handi's have... then think again buddy...It ain't happening...wither you like it or not......If the CVA's turn out to be problematic...then by Jimminey I'll be telling it like it is about them. If someone starts a comparison thread there...or here...I will say what is own my mind and tell them the truth to the best of my ability...The good...and the BAD..

 Andy...you sure as heck don't have a problem going to any of the other forums and voicing your opinion there do you...Then don't you dare be a hypocrite with me on this for telling anyone the truth on my own forum.......I have defended these rifles as long and in most cases longer than anyone here has...and on all of the various forums....I do have reasons for my actions with these rifles...I have high hopes that Marlin will take notice that even if a big a fan as my self and others here is that  PO'd to start moving away from the NEF's...that they will start to listen...and hopefully they will start putting money into the NEF plant...Then...let those fine folks who work there make these rifles better...instead of letting the plant machinery run down as they are doing right now......I know if what is being done in the Bergara plant on the Elite barrels makes them better..... it damn sure can be done on the Handi's if they would start investing and if they started modernizing the plant...Look closely at the barrel being tested for quality control in the video here about 3/4 the way thru the clip..http://www.bergarabarrels.com/...That doesn't look like a current Optima Elite barrel in it...look closely...Look at the lug...an Elite has a hole where the pin goes thru it...This one  looks like a Handi barrel with an open curve.where the pin lays across it...If this can done on this type of lug there with that type of machiunery...It sure as hell can be done by NEF if they had the equipment...This is a no brainer...A craftsman is only as good as his tools...Give that craftsman better tools...he will do a better job and turn out a better product...Will it raise the cost of the Handi's...probably...but...wouldn't it be awesome if these Handi's never had to go back to NEF for barrel fitting...and you could walk into a NEF dealer and get what ever barrel they offered like the Elite's? Would it be worth it over all...I say it would...I say why put our own craftsmen at a disadvantage when competing against different countries...Give them the best tools to make our rifles here...Put them on even ground...and then stand them side by side...and compare them...Until Marlin understand this...and get out of the mentality of running a good company in the ground and not investing the profits in the plant...there will more instances of quality control pop up...This is a reality...I'm not burying my head in the sand and hoping they will listen...I'm speaking to their wallets...I don't know if it will do any good or not...If it does...then that is great...if it doesn't...then that is a real shame...

You said

I have to say I myself do not know what keeps me coming back the this thread, perhaps it is just the desire to stand up for these fine guns against the recent attacks in favor of the CVA's

...Who's attacking who here Andy...Who started this thread...and WHY? Those of us that have the Elite's didn't...I know full well why you do Andy...You think every thing is fine as long as no one has anything bad to say about them...then you want to get your feathers ruffled when someone like myself starts telling people as I have been...To BAD ole bean...I would rather be 100% honest what they can expect  and let them know in the process they have the best forum they can come to get the information to fix the majority of issues they have with these rifles fixed by all the fine folks here and also a company that has one of the best customer service departments in the nation for any rifle they will buy ...Which is exactly what I have and will continue to do...We got a-lot of good folks willing to help anyone...myself included...These rifles do have issues...This is the truth...Some of these rifles are more problematic than other...This is the truth...Some calibers are more prone to have problems than other calibers....This is the truth... I think I am being pretty honest and open about it...Why is it you have an issue with it?

You said...

Lets discuss H&R's and NEF's on this site and lets do it with an open and objective mind, not with blanket statements like 50% of all guns produced are produced with problems

  You say you want to do this with an open mind correct?...The only way to do this is to tell both sides...not just the good but the bad as well...and if this entails discussing other rifles and what they have to offer then this is how it is going to be......This is the only way an honest evaluation can be made........I never said all 50% of all NEF's produced have problems...You have taken what I said...and how I said it completely out of context....This is what you are reading while your angry.....YOU ARE Totally WRONG... I said you have a 50-50% chance of getting a bad one when ever you open the box...Just like you can if you bought a Holland & Holland...AyA...Remington...Winchester...Weatherby...Savage....and yes...CVA...But since the Elites are relatively new...and not many people own them yet...folks want to know how they shape up when compared to a Handi...vs Encore...Or any other single shot or how Handi's shape up against them...and even how they shape up against a bolt action...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,114275.0.html...Most of us don't have an issue with it discussing other rifles here as long as if it somehow pertains to Handi's

Here's how I see it...You don't want any discussion on any other type rifle here...You don't want any one to be told the whole story...the good...and the bad......Seems to me YOUR the one with the problem Andy...and your trying to make it look like anyone who has bought an Elite and likes the way it handles and looks are causing the problems...Were not...

Dale...I'm not bashing either rifle...I am trying to clear up a mis perception here that will cause problems down the road...This is one I am not going to leave un-challenged...Folks have a right to hear the truth...Some folks just don't like it...If you don't want the truth...don't ask for it...It's only natural folks will defend a threat to the NEF's here...even a imaginary one such as this is...Andy is a good guy...and has his heart in the right place...so I know his intentions are admirable by this...I just hope he understands mine is too...


Mac

[Ditchdigger]

Hey guy's lets stop this bashing and get back to the rifles,Andy and Mac,you are both great guy's and its kind of silly to keep this up.Its kinda like what a old Indian said once to me "A man cannot be angry and wise at the same time". It's true boy's so lets let it go before we ruin GB's day again.   Digger