Author Topic: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders  (Read 1450 times)

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Offline Lone Star

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Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« on: March 08, 2007, 04:06:16 PM »
The question often comes up about substituting data for different powders with similar names.  After perusing the 2007 Hodgdon Manual it is clear that at least several powders with different names are indeed the same powder.  Examples:

H110 = W296.  Data for several handgun cartridges shows identical max charges, identical velocities, and identical pressures.
HP-38 = W231  Same as above
H414 = W760   Same as above

And conversely, powders with similar names are definatively not  the same:

H4227 is not  IMR4227, data is reasonably close.
H4198 is not  IMR4198, data is reasonably close.
H4895 is not  IMR4895, data is reasonably close.
H4350 is not  IMR4350, although data is quite close.
H4831 is not  IMR4831, known for decades that the Hodgdon powder is far slower.

It will be interesting to see which if any of the powders are dropped, and which of the siimilar-named powders are substituted for the other.


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Offline skb2706

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 06:07:02 AM »
Any match for WW748 ?

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #2 on: March 09, 2007, 06:56:56 AM »
While they may appear the same , no 2 powders are the same , take H110 and w296 for example . while H110 says that you can use standard primers , W296 states right on the powder can to use ONLY mag primers , there is a reason for this warning . can they be used interchangable ? SOMETIMES but not always !

This is most important when getting close to min or max loads were pressures could spike with no warning ,when in dought stick with listed load data for the proper powder .

stimpy
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 11:34:13 AM »
They REALLY ARE the same. Both are made by Primex owned by Winchester and distributed now by Hodgdon. The ONLY difference is the normal lot to lot variation.


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Offline Castaway

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 11:58:56 AM »
Graybeard, you beat me to the punch. I knew they came off of the same product line but was trying to confim a source before I posted.  Data is interchangeable between H110 and W296 simply because they are one and the same!

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2007, 12:14:18 PM »
I stand corrected , can anyone explain why W296 says to use mag primers and H110 can use standard primers ? why the diffrence as they are the same powder . just seems odd .  ???

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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 01:07:27 PM »
Hodgdon - the distributor - says to use Remington 2 1/2 primers for both powders in the .44 Magnum for example.  Hornady says to use Winchester WLP primers for both.  Speer says to use CCI 350s for both.  Sierra says to use CCI 350s for every   powder.   Apparently it doesn't matter...on average anyway.  Some standard primers are as 'hot' as some magnum primers, perhaps that is part of the answer.


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Offline COLT45

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2007, 09:53:21 PM »
Hogdon BALLC2 and Win. 748 are kissing cousins if not identical

Offline skb2706

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2007, 05:27:45 AM »
Hogdon BALLC2 and Win. 748 are kissing cousins if not identical

Thats good info to know.

Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 10:56:35 AM »
Has been a good read but coming from the Thermoplastics industry, I cant help but think that there would be some differences engineered into the similar powder caracteristics.
Take partical size for instance, this can be pre-determined in how much & what kind of suspending agents are used while the powder is still in the slurry form. Agitation, along with the number of blades and baffles are also important.
An intentional temperature change of just a few degrees can also change the caracteristics of the batch greatly along with how long it is kept on cycle.
Post additions are normal between the slurry makeup & the drying that can affect the product greatly depending on the caracteristics needed.
Finally, the mesh of the screen after drying can vary by as little as 20 threads per square inch and the proper screen is installed depending on the needs of the product.


That 296 and H110 appear to be very similar but in some calibers, the 296 loadings will call for No More Nor No Less than what the manual calls for.
In other calibers where dual usage is acceptable, it seems like the starting loads for the 296 are always lighter than the H110 by as much as 1.8gr with the velocitys being equal.
They do end up being the same amounts in grains and velocitys on the top end a lot of times, so to me,…this means that the bulk density of the two powders are different but may become insignificant after a certain weight in grains charged into the case is achieved.

If the bulk densitys are different, primers can make a big difference which brings us back around to what Stimpylu32 was saying.
In the end, I will rely on the loading manual to keep me on the safe side.




Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2007, 12:07:11 PM »
Geez how many times and ways do we have to say this?

The manufacturer is Primex aka Winchester Olin. They have said that two powders H110 and W296 ARE THE SAME POWDER.

It don't matter what the reloading manuals say in the end as they are using different lots than you do so they are really no more accurate than anything else. The ONLY difference in the two powders are the normal lot to lot variations and since you WIL NOT be using the same lot the loading manual folks did your lot will vary as much from theirs as did their lots of W296 and H110 did.

Manuals are guides only and are not to be taken as gospel.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2007, 03:38:05 PM »
Right on GB.  And HP38 = W231 and H414 = W760.  When two powders have identical  velocities and identical  pressures in every single instance  in the Hodgdon 2007 manual - they ARE the same powder.   This isn't trying to extrapolate from another industry or repeating something you read online.  It is statistically impossible to be otherwise. 

W748 and BL(C)-2 might be the same powder - they behave similarly in some cartridges.  There is not enough comparative data in Hodgdon to know with any degree of certainty.  I know from my own experience that they are not the same - in the lots that I used.  BL(C)-2 is well known for lot-to-lot variation over the years.


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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2007, 05:28:26 PM »
I've not seen anything to say W748 and BL-C2 are the same powder. As you said they are similar but the others the companies have told us are the same. Now that Hodgdon owns IMR and is the sole distributor for Winchester brand powder I wonder how long the duplicates will continue.


Bill aka the Graybeard
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Offline Glanceblamm

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2007, 05:33:48 PM »
Thanks for the corrections guys. I can see how the lot variations could vary greatly depending on when they were tested as each lot will be different. We also have a verbal confirming the 296 & H110.

I would suspect that the powders manufactured now a days a much more consistant just because the companys are ISO (Industrial Standard of Operation) compliant.

My bottom line would still be not to assume it is ok to substitude X for Y unless it is especially stated by the said manufacture, or a sorce such as the Hodgdon 2007 manual which proved true in this case.
Thanks
GB



 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2007, 05:47:54 PM »
I use both 296 and H110, when I run out of one I use the other. Load data is always the same load for me with either one. They are one and the same.  ;)
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Offline Lone Star

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2007, 04:53:03 PM »
Quote
I would suspect that the powders manufactured now a days a much more consistant just because the companys are ISO (Industrial Standard of Operation) compliant.
I'm not arguing, just thinking out loud.  ISO compliance has little to do with meeting product specifications.  If the tolerances within the specifications have not tightened, I'd not expect the lot-to-lot variations to change materially.  There is usually no financial reward   for delivering a product within a tighter tolerance than that detailed in the specifications, but there usually is a cost  invlved in doing so.


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Offline bja105

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2007, 03:25:54 PM »
Hodgdon has a new site that should settle some of these questions.  It shows data from hodgdon, IMR, and Winchester, side by side, with some pressure data.  I think it points to 748 and BL-C2 being the same, and 296 and H110, also.
http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp


Offline SuperstitionCoues

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Re: Hodgdon vs IMR vs Winchester Powders
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2007, 08:56:39 AM »
While they may appear the same , no 2 powders are the same , take H110 and w296 for example . while H110 says that you can use standard primers , W296 states right on the powder can to use ONLY mag primers , there is a reason for this warning . can they be used interchangable ? SOMETIMES but not always !

This is most important when getting close to min or max loads were pressures could spike with no warning ,when in dought stick with listed load data for the proper powder .

stimpy

According to Hodgdon/Winchester (who I just got off the phone with), these ARE EXACTLY the same powders. 
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