Author Topic: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?  (Read 5309 times)

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Offline insanelupus

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.38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« on: March 09, 2007, 09:29:00 PM »
Before anyone gets their dander up, let me start out by saying this.  I realize that a .38 Special would not be the first candidate for the job of hunting whitetail deer.  And while I know there are other calibers out there better suited for it, the point is I want to use a particular .38 (description to follow).  As such, this thread isn't about what would be better, but more appropriately, what experience folks might have with using one for such a purpose and what loads they used.

A family member has recently agreed to sell me his old Colt Single Action for a very attractive price.  This one was shipped in 1886 and was converted from .44-40 to .38 Special in the late '50's by Simmons Shotgun Specialties.  This particular handgun has a lot of sentimental value to me and is a very nice example of first generation Colt that is still serviceable and shootable without destroying any type of collector value.  It has a 5.5" barrel and is very accurate.  It is limited to standard .38 Special loads and shoots to point of aim at 25 yards.  Obviously, I am not even going to entertain the thought of any type of +P load. In addition, contrary to my usual train of thought, my feeling is that the best bullet for this purpose would be some type of lead in the 158 grain class.  I am typically a jacketed bullet fan, but this is one of those cartridges I would make an exception for, but am not adverse to using jacketed bullets if they performed satisfactorily.

My favorite style of hunting is still hunting.  My first whitetail with a handgun was shot at between 10 and 15 yards with my .44 Magnum.  The .38 would be worn in a holster and accompanying me on rifle hunts.  I'm not talking about using the .38 as my sole weapon and would definately be choosy about shots.  The ideal scenario for my intended use would be at 0 to 25 yards on a whitetail doe, either from my ground blind or still hunting.  These ranges are definately doable for me and my skill level, though I won't say that it is an every day occurrence.  Basically, the .38 would be used in the moment of a unique opportunity and it may take a few seasons for just the right opportunity to present itself.  This is not a problem for me and I'm willing to wait for that that opportunity.

The midwest does I'd be hunting tend to run not much bigger than 150 pounds, if that.  Many are closer to the 100 pound weight class and honestly, I'd probably be looking at taking a yearling at the closest ranges.  One because they are usually a little easier to sneak up on and two, they are smaller and the round would perform better. I do think that from a 5.5" barrel at less than 25 yards, with a proper behind the shoulder shot for heart/lung area, this cartridge would perform well enough for the shot to be an ethical shot for a whitetail deer and kill said deer humanely.  Should that buck of a lifetime chance by, I would still have a rifle to use and would not be tempted to press the .38 into service for a job it wasn't capable of.  Basically, the sidearm is packed for coyotes, foxes, rabbits and the occasional coup de grace, and perhaps a chance to take a doe given the right circumstances. 

I have other caliber choices available and when I hunt in Montana I do use my .44's.  But for hunting in the midwest, where there aren't any big toothy critters to be too concerned about, the .38 would be a fun handgun to pack for both sentimental and nostalgic reasons.  I suspect that there are folks here that have used a .38, downloaded/low power .357 Magnum and possibly even standard 9mm loads to deer hunt.  I am curious as to your experiences, what loads you were using, the distances at which you shot the game and what the result of the shot was, as well as your thoughts on using that particular combination again.  Again, I'm not trying to start a thread on why I should use another caliber, but more properly, what load I could possibly use that would be at safe pressure levels (standard .38 Special loads) that would probably perform satisfactorily on small whitetail does at less than 25 yards.  Thanks.
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2007, 11:52:42 PM »
you are getting this from a guy that will ususally defend the fact that deer dont take much killing but a 38 special of anykind in a handgun to hunt deer id have to say no. Dear are a living creature and suffer pain and deserve to have a quick humane death and i wouldnt count on a 38 loaded anyway to do it. By the way your colt will easily handle any +p ammo made, even a steady diet of them. The only differnce in your 38 and the same gun in 357 is changed with a simple reamer. Now if you did that, (which wouldnt hurt the value of the gun because it is not original anyway) and loaded 180 cast to 1100-1200 fps id say it would work if you are shooting it with precision even under hunting pressure. Bottom line is your much better served with your .44 and leaving your 38 for small game and plinking.
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Offline TommyD

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2007, 12:32:39 AM »
I have to agree that standard velocity .38 special loads really aren't the way to go for deer. Too much risk of losing a wounded animal.

On the other hand, John Taffin has published an article entitled, "THE SIXGUNS AND LOADS OF ELMER KEITH" and lists a fairly hot load using .38 special brass (http://www.sixguns.com/range/elmersloads.htm).

I have not tried this load myself, but I would only only consider using this load in a .357 mag revolver and not in an old gun chambered for .38 special. And I would carefully work up to these levels.

I do not know your gun and cannot recommend this for your use, but perhaps a competent gunsmith could evaluate your revolver and tell you if such a load would be safe in it.

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Offline S.B.

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2007, 01:31:12 AM »
Where in the midwest are you planning to hunt with a rifle and your handgun, what state?
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Offline Mikey

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2007, 01:43:26 AM »
insanelupus:  Not only No, but please No!  The 38 is just not the right caliber for the job.  I can undestand your attachment to that old Colt (too bad you don't have the original cylinder and barrel) but it is just not the right choice for whitetail, even at close ranges.  Mikey.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2007, 02:37:42 AM »
I have to agree with others here, also you need to check the legality of shooting at big game with a .38 Special. In some States, it is not legal to hunt with anything less than a 357 Mag, and I support  and agree with that law. I think it is irresponsible to use a gun that does not have enough power to humanly kill an animal.

It sound like from your post, that you already understand most of what was posted here. But if you think the .38 will work on a doe, why would you say if a Buck of a life time stepped out you would use your rifle? It is obvious you don't have enough confidence in that .38 to humanly kill that buck. Keep that .38 for them small critters and don't think of using it on a deer.
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Offline billy_56081

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2007, 03:04:48 AM »
  If its legal in your state, and you are very careful about your shots it should do the trick. It sounds like youknow your limits. Karamojo Bell used a 7 x 57 to shoot many tons of elephant. He was an excellent hunter and shot. I'd look into using a hard cast bullet with a very wide flat nose is I were going to use a 38 special on a deer. I know here in MN that a 38 special is not legal because there is a minimum case length restiction on all calibers except the 10mm auto. In the olden days there was a ton of deer shot with, 32-20s,25-20s, 38-40s and 44-40s. Those deer seemed to die.
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Offline S.B.

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2007, 03:24:34 AM »
.38 special is not legal to use on deer here in Illinois.
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Offline MS Hitman

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2007, 03:43:43 AM »
Elmer Keith's ".38-44" load  does just shy of 1400 fps from my 6" Model 28.  The Alliant 2400 now available is a faster powder and a smaller powder charge is necessary. 

Offline insanelupus

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2007, 08:15:48 AM »
This old Colt was shipped in 1886.  Colt did not start manufacturing frames that they warrantied for smokeless powder until into the 20th century.  The pressures of standard .38 Special loads are in line with the blackpowder pressures of the time.  I would not even entertain the thought of reeming it to .357 or using +P loads.

As to being legal, everything I have found so far for the state says it is legal.  (Missouri)  I'm still researching it, but I don't believe it will be a problem.  As to the buck of a lifetime, if he was close enough, and I had the .38 in hand, I might try it.  Most truly big bucks I've run into have always had the advantage of cover and distance to protect them from my handguns, with a rifle, once they break cover the distance problem isn't. 

Like I said, I know there is a better caliber for the job out there.  Probably won't stop me from giving it a go.  I understand those that are discouraging it, but I've got to believe there are those that have don it in the past.  Bullet selection will be critical here and I'll do some penetration tests first of course.  I'm not trying to argue with those here by any means and I understand your concern for the animal. I do believe that with the proper application of the bullet it can be done responsibly. 

I'm not discouraged easy, though I understand everyone's concerns.  After some shooting and testing I may decide against it.  I realize that I am using an instrument that is basically being used for a highly specialized applications where all conditions and factors must first be met.  Either way, it'll still be a fun gun to use and someday I may have it converted back to it's original chambering and use black powder loads for it.  We'll see.  Thanks for the replies.
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Offline Castaway

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2007, 08:46:45 AM »
I don't enforse it, in fact, I shy away from a 357 though I know many folks have used it successfully.  If you are dead set on trying it, you've already acknowledged proper bullet selection.  Given the limited velocity, the bullet called for needs to be hard to allow best penetration and should be of Keith design or similar SWC to cut the best wound channelas far as it can go.

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2007, 09:45:27 AM »
definately dont shoot +p ammo in a first generation gun. Ill tell you what id do with it if it were mine is give hamilton bowen a call or doug turnbul and then go see your banker and take out a loan and send it to them and have them restore it back original with a 4440 cly and barrel and a peroid finish. First generation guns are almost to valueable to use as plinkers. I appologize for not screaning my answer better. It slipped by me that it was a black powder gun.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2007, 10:58:51 AM »
Because of the date of manufacture I would NOT assume it safe with +P much less .357 Mag loads, in fact most authorities on the old Colt's (I do not consider myself one by the way) say you really shouldn't even shoot them at all unless with real BP.

I personally don't think I'd want to use a .38 Special on deer but let's set that aside as you've already addressed it and get down to trying to respond to the question asked.

If I were gonna do it I agree that a lead, as pure as possible in fact, bullet of about 150-160 grains would be the bullet of choice. I believe you should limit your shots as well. If you can't get a broad side shot from up close enough to be certain of punching both lungs I'd not take the shot. I do believe such a bullet from say 30-35 yards or so max would penetrate both lungs and no deer with a hole thru both lungs is gonna live long. It don't really matter what made that hole the deer will be dead fairly soon.

I do have serious doubts the bullet would exit and I really don't like to not have an exit but that really doesn't affect the lethality but only my ability to follow the blood trail. It's no worse a choice than a .36" round ball from a muzzle loader I'd hazard to guess and I'm betting a lot of deer have fallen that in the early days of this country.


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Offline Jerry Lester

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2007, 11:00:08 AM »
As much as I've pleaded the 357 magnum's case over the years as a deer caliber, I'd suggest you abandon the idea of using the 38 special in a revolver. Yes, it will work within a very limited set of circumstances, and yes, I've done it with both a revolver, and a rifle. If you were talking about a rifle, I could give you a few 38 special combinations that would consistently kill deer for you.

You strike me as being like I am as far as somebody talking me out of trying something, so I will offer this much. If you "have" to try it, use a 140g XTP-HP as fast as you can safely push it in that revolver. Don't use the 158g because you'll never get enough velocity to get good expansion. Put a 140g XTP-HP "tight"behind the shoulder, into the vitals on a "slightly" quartering away angle. This should "with perfect placement" punch a borderline acceptable hole through both lungs in the area that allows the absolute most blood loss. You'll get some expansion, and the XTP-HP's cut like a broad head when the jackets open up. The bullet will most likely end up against the off shoulder blade. If the deer runs very far(no way to predict it), you'll have a fairly decent tracking job on your hands if it's not in open terrain.

After saying all that though, I'd still advise against it. :)

Offline timothy

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2007, 02:34:52 PM »
In this odd circumstance I would say load a 158gr rnfp in a 38 shell packed full (20+grs) of pyrodex p. And be ready to track.

Offline Cheesehead

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2007, 04:04:39 AM »
The 38 Special would work with an "archery mentality". The right bullet and a maximum powder charge would be a must. It is legal in WI where I live. The only regulation on hand guns for big game being that it is a center fire with a 5.5" minimum barrel length.

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Offline Badnews Bob

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2007, 04:07:05 PM »
If you are a good shot and take only a broadside shot to the chests, sure I think you can. I would use a 158 to 180 grain SWC, at 25 yrds or less they will go right thru a does chest, I know they will because I've seen a .44 cal round ball out of a brass framed 1858 army go right thru one and I don't think that BP load is near as stout as a .38 with modern powders. 8)
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2007, 04:53:38 PM »
Just one example of the mighty 38 special.  ::)


Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge                      Type Bullet               Muzzle        50       100
Remington® Express™       110                    995            926     871
Remington® Express™       110                    950            890     840
Remington® Express™       125                    945            898     858
Golden Saber™                 125                    975            929     885
UMC® Leadless™              125                    800            775     752
UMC® Leadless™              125                    975            935     899
UMC®                             125                    945            898     858
UMC®                             130                    800            775     752
Remington® Express™      148                    710            634     566
Remington® Express™      158                    890            855     823
Remington® Express™      158                    890            855     823
Remington® Express™      158                    755            723     692
Remington® Express™      158                    755            723     692
UMC®                             158                    755            723     692

 
Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge                     Type Bullet                  Muzzle         50    100
Remington® Express™         110                     242            210   185
Remington® Express™         110                     220            194   172
Remington® Express™         125                     248            224   204
Golden Saber™                   125                     264            238   218
UMC® Leadless™                125                     178            167   157
UMC® Leadless™                125                     264            242   224
UMC®                               125                     248            224   204
UMC®                               130                     185            173   163
Remington® Express™        148                     166            132   105
Remington® Express™        158                     278            257   238
Remington® Express™        158                     278            257   238
Remington® Express™        158                     200            183   168
Remington® Express™        158                     200            183   168
UMC®                               158                     200            183   168
 
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2007, 05:32:22 PM »
Now looking at the numbers above, do any of them look like they have enough energy for deer hunting? Honestly.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2007, 05:34:11 PM »
Is it absolutely impossible for you guys to just answer the question a person asks without giving them a ton of grief over what YOU think is right and wrong? Or to actually get thru a thread without personal attacks?


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Offline GatCat

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2007, 08:14:06 PM »
My 2 cents is you seem quite aware of the cartridge limitations, you are an experienced hunter, and you are willing to wait for the right shot ( distance, angle, etc). I say go for it. I'd use an LBT bullet, to get as much penetration and as much of a wound channel as possible ( knowing it will not be great ). How many siimilar deer have been taken in this county's past with small-bore muzzle-loaders using round-balls? I am not a big believer in ft.-lbs. equations on game.Those who are should look at archery kilils vs "energy" ( sure, they have a great cutting area, but very little "ft.-lbs". Having said all this, I think your combo is better suited to turkey, javalina, and such. Good luck. Mark.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2007, 01:01:56 AM »
GatCat, you cannot compare arrows to bullets, two totally different concepts. That all I am going to say on that.

Next someone is going to ask if a 22LR can be used for deer hunting.

Hay, if it is legal in your State use it, but I think there are better choices than a 38 Special for deer. Most people think a 357 Mag is marginal on deer.

I am not trying to push my personal choice on anyone, but we owe to the animals we hunt to make a quick and clean kill.
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2007, 01:18:55 PM »
Before anyone gets their dander up, let me start out by saying this.  I realize that a .38 Special would not be the first candidate for the job of hunting whitetail deer.  And while I know there are other calibers out there better suited for it, the point is I want to use a particular .38 (description to follow).  As such, this thread isn't about what would be better, but more appropriately, what experience folks might have with using one for such a purpose and what loads they used......... The ideal scenario for my intended use would be at 0 to 25 yards on a whitetail doe, either from my ground blind or still hunting.  These ranges are definately doable for me and my skill level, though I won't say that it is an every day occurrence.  Basically, the .38 would be used in the moment of a unique opportunity and it may take a few seasons for just the right opportunity to present itself.  This is not a problem for me and I'm willing to wait for that that opportunity.

Obviously you're an experienced handgun hunter and know your limitations. While I don't condone the use of a standard .38 Special for purposeful deer hunting I wouldn't hesitate to take a shot with my 5" M15 at a deer out to 25 yards if I had to or wanted to. It would have to be a very classic broadside shot with close foreleg in the forward position for the bullet to have a clean shot at the heart. Probably won't happen for me as I don't carry the M15 in the field anymore. If I intend to use the handgun to hunt deer the minimum I carry is a .45 ACP or a .357 Mag. However, as a LEO I dispatched numerous injured deer with the M15 (amoung numerous other handgun cartridges) using Remington 125 HPs and WW 150 gr lead HPs. I like the WW lead HPs (Federals load is good also). I also shot a deer (blacktail, but not much different in size than the whitetails you describe) with a .38 when I was a kid growing up on a ranch in the coastal mountain foothills of the Willamette Valley in Oregon. Here's the story;

Back when I was a young and dumb kid (12), and didn't know it couldn't be done, bright and early one morning I snuck the S&W M&P with 6" barrel out to pot at some squirrels. My Uncle had loaned it to my Mom when we moved out on the ranch for "protection". I'd managed to pot a couple deer with my .22LR single shot Savage rifle and a couple with the M94 my Uncle had loaned us. Thus I had a little "big game" hunting under my belt. Anyways my Uncle had showed me how to shoot the revolver and had slipped me some extra ammo "for practice". It was a .38 Special of course and the ammo was Peters 158 gr lead RNs.

My Mom didn't like me shooting the revolver without her or my step dad around but she was asleep, my step dad had already left for work and I would be out to check on the cattle, shoot a little and have the revolver cleaned and put back all before she woke up. That was the plan anyway. I rode my horse out as it was just getting light to the back forty where there was about 20 acres of cherry orchard. I spotted several deer meandering through the small orchard and figured I knew which trail into the woods they'd take. I slipped off my horse, tied her to a tree and took off along another trail through the woods to set up an ambush. I got to my spot about 5 minutes before the deer came along. There was two does in the lead with their four fawns following and big old dry doe bringing up the rear. I was nestled down into some Scotch Broom and was pretty well oblivious to the deer. I had the M&P cocked and held in both hands as I was sittng. My Uncle had showed me how to shoot that way sitting, said some guy named Kieth wrote about it. I kew that at 25 yards or so if I aimed at the feet of a standing grey digger (California Graund Squirrel) the bullet would hit them in the chest. I let the first two does and their fawns walk by. Then as that big doe came abreast I raised the revolver, lined up the front sight in the rear notch aiming just behind the close front leg about a quarter of the way up from the bottom as the doe stepped foreward. I pulled the trigger and the doe flinched, walked about fifteen or twenty steps and fell over dead. The others milled around until I stood up then they took off.

I was one pretty excited kid. I gutted the doe (I always carried a Barlow pocket knife back then-didn't every kid?). I went back and got my horse. I had to take my shirt off and blindfold her with it before she'd let me throw (actually lift, push and shove but "throw" sounds much more manly) the deer over the saddle and tied it on. I led my horse back and hung the deer in our garage/shed and skinned her. I then cleaned the revolver and put it back. No one asked what I killed it with, guess everyone thought I'd used my .22LR. Anyways I almost got away with it until a couple days later when we were cutting and wrapping the deer for the freezer. My step dad found the .38 slug stuck in the offside shoulder bone. He just stuck it in his pocket and later when we were down at the barn he pulled out a bottle of whiskey (he always had one down there) gave it to me in one hand and the bullet in the other hand and said; "good shot, take a snort." Of course all that was when the deer were weak and unarmored and I didn't know you couldn't kill anything with a .38 Special 158 gr RN let alone a deer.

So there's the story of my first deer killed with a handgun. Choose your shot, hold hard and shoot well.

Larry Gibson

Offline dubber123

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2007, 02:04:20 PM »
Gotta say that was an enjoyable post!  Thanks. :)

Offline spinafish

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2007, 03:29:34 PM »
Sometime ago in the late seventies one of my dad's friends was hunting deer from a tree stand.  While climbing into his stand one morning his rifle sling came undone from the swivel and the rifle fell about twelve feet barrel down( I know these days everyone uses a rope to pull their weapons up..)while climbing back down to retrieve and survey the damage of his rifle he noticed movement and spotted a fork point coming his way..He always carried a .38 snubnose in his pocket to finish off deer that his '06 didn't kill outright..mind you, loaded with the old round nose lead bullets.  He shot the deer through the shoulder blades and it just fell over.  The joke around camp was that the deer chased him up the tree and he had to throw his rifle at it to keep it from climbing the tree, he then shot the deer as it was dodging the rifle..
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Offline lil_hunter12

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2007, 03:56:09 PM »
i dont see y a .38 couldnt b used for deer i have saw them killed with .380's and ive killed em with .410 slugs as a young kid and killed a few deer with my dads step dad's 22-250. all guns ppl swear cant kill a deer but all one shot kills never had 1 take more than 3 steps after being hit.

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #26 on: March 12, 2007, 04:25:23 PM »
I am done with this thread, you guys have fun with your 38 special deer killers. LOL  :-X
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Offline insanelupus

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #27 on: March 12, 2007, 05:55:04 PM »
Redhawk, the thread wasn't meant to cause any acid indigestion, and I figured there would be a bit of controversey over it.  And your advice is well taken. In most circumstances, I may even be inclined to agree with you.  As it is, I'm a hard headed SOB who is bound and determined to do something!

I think this bullet from Cast Performance would be satisfactory for my endeavor.  http://www.castperformance.com/Detail.bok?no=4

Larry Gibson, thank you for your post.  I enjoyed it very much.  I have heard similar stories from the fellows back home that used to visit grandpa's house when I was a kid.  Sometimes you make do with what you have.  Spinafish, I've enjoyed yours as well.

As has been stated, it can be done, but there are several limitations that must be adheared to.  Thank you for everyones advice.  If anyone else has any .38 Special deer hunting stories I'd love to hear them!!
"My feeling is this, give him pleanty of time, pleanty of birds, and a little direction, and he'll hunt his heart out for me.  That's all I ask." 

Offline Mikey

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2007, 12:19:41 AM »
OK, can a 38 Spl take a whitetail - yes it can under certain circumstances.  Do the majority of the posters here recommend using a 38 Spl on whitetail - no we don't, and I do not wish to encourage it.  Mikey. 


Offline Skunk

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Re: .38 Special For Whitetail Deer?
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2007, 02:42:09 AM »
Well, I'm sure as hell glad this got figured out.  ???

"As it is, I'm a hard headed SOB who is bound and determined to do something!" - insanelupus

You and a few others on this forum, insanelupus. ;D

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Mike

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