Author Topic: CVA Can't Hold a Candle to Our Handi's (Read 4526 times)

McLernon · « **on:** March 10, 2007, 11:04:10 AM »

I had a chance today to examine the new CVA(Optima I think). The angle of the stock does feel pretty good. The fit and finish is not nearly as good as a Handi though IMHO. If you compare apples to apples ie Ultra to the CVA there is a world of difference. I put the cinnamon lams on my 204 Handi and it looks really good, much nicer than the CVA. I think CVA has a ways to go before they can touch our Handi's.

One more thing, I don't think you'll see the CVA in hardwood as the angle precludes the proper line up of the grain. Lams for sure but not a single piece of wood.

My evaluation($0.02 worth)

Mc

Brett · « **Reply #1 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:34:17 AM »

One observation I have about the CVA is that the line of the stock appears to be so low bellow the plane of the barrel that I would think it would be inclined to have a lot of muzzle rise, especially in heavier calibers. I have not shot a CVA so I do not know if this is true or not, like I said my hypothesis is based wholly on appearances.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #2 on:** March 10, 2007, 11:56:04 AM »

Mc,

If you're not even sure what the model was, how can you make a comparison?

There is an Optima and Optima Pro which is a muzzleloader only, the Optima Elite isn't the same rifle.

Tim

McLernon · « **Reply #3 on:** March 10, 2007, 12:27:40 PM »

It was a muzzlel loader. Is the action any different for a single shot rifle?

oops!

Mc

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2007, 03:16:22 PM »

The stock does not let the muzzle rise,well maybe a inch or 2 shooting free recoil.It shoves straight back with less recoil than the Handi or any rifle that I've shot.(and I've shot a bunch of them) Quick shot his 7mm08 in CVAand a Handi,and I'm pretty sure he said the CVA had less recoil and was more comfortable to shoot. You can shoot the open sights and a scope from the stock with ease and comfort. Ugly? yes but it grow's on you every time you shoot it. Digger

nomosendero · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2007, 04:04:49 PM »

Quote from: McLernon on March 10, 2007, 11:04:10 AM

I had a chance today to examine the new CVA(Optima I think). The angle of the stock does feel pretty good. The fit and finish is not nearly as good as a Handi though IMHO. If you compare apples to apples ie Ultra to the CVA there is a world of difference. I put the cinnamon lams on my 204 Handi and it looks really good, much nicer than the CVA. I think CVA has a ways to go before they can touch our Handi's.

One more thing, I don't think you'll see the CVA in hardwood as the angle precludes the proper line up of the grain. Lams for sure but not a single piece of wood.

My evaluation($0.02 worth)

Mc

The Optima Elite is the CVA that offers Centerfire barrels & is the model therefore that you would compare with a Handi. There is no reason that
the Lam. stocked OE would't look good, & I would think this is what you would compare with the Ultra, since it is a Lam. stock, right? I mean, you are the one to mention apples to apples. Now, about it not being avail. in wood, do you mean like the nice wood that you can get in a Handi now? What model is that, must not be in the website or catalog, other than lam, hardwood is all I see, so what is the point?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2007, 04:50:38 PM »

Digger is right, I thought the felt recoil and muzzle jump of the Optima Elite is less than a Handi, both shooting the same ammo, the OE also is very user friendly as far as how it fits me, the stock just isn't as easy on the eyes as a Handi.

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2007, 05:40:22 PM »

Brett.
Your observation is correct; uplift is the result of more weight below the center of bore than above. From the picture all of the stock and part of the action and 1/2 0f the barrel is below the center of the bore. This will create uplift, how much can be analyzed by weighing the components and determined by force diagram calculations.

It is true that a thumb hole type stock will reduce recoil, it is not just felt recoil, it is an actual recoil reduction. On a standard pistol grip the rifle will recoil away from the hand, on a thumbhole type stock the rifle will recoil against the palm of you hand, your hand and the arm weight to the elbow is added to the weight of the rifle.

Simply put, when you add weight to a rifle you will reduce recoil. Here is another hitch, the energy required to uplift the rifle is taken away from the recoil. So uplift is not necessary bad as long as it is not too severe.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2007, 10:01:12 PM »

Quote from: Fred M on March 10, 2007, 05:40:22 PM

Brett.
Your observation is correct; uplift is the result of more weight below the center of bore than above. From the picture all of the stock and part of the action and 1/2 0f the barrel is below the center of the bore. This will create uplift, how much can be analyzed by weighing the components and determined by force diagram calculations.

It is true that a thumb hole type stock will reduce recoil, it is not just felt recoil, it is an actual recoil reduction. On a standard pistol grip the rifle will recoil away from the hand, on a thumbhole type stock the rifle will recoil against the palm of you hand, your hand and the arm weight to the elbow is added to the weight of the rifle.

Simply put, when you add weight to a rifle you will reduce recoil. Here is another hitch, the energy required to uplift the rifle is taken away from the recoil. So uplift is not necessary bad as long as it is not too severe.

Fred...

I don't even know why I bother ...Read what Digger has to say...These rifles recoil straight back...and have very little muzzle rise as compared to A Handi..and he isn't shooting a thumbhole stock...he's shooting a standard one...and it's a 30-06 with hot hand loads...and he's shooting free recoil...So far I have the only thumb hole stock bud...(pist...) I shoot free recoil too

MC...

Seems you have a bit of an axe to grind...especially by the header of your post..Since you don't own one...and haven't shot one..and most likely didn't even see a Elite...I wonder..."What's your point?"...Are you trying to ruffle some feathers of those of us who own them? If you want to do a honest evaluation on them...fine...go for it...If your just wanting to start some type of fight...Don't bother...I am just guessing here...but...really...I don't think anyone of us that do have them..care to get into this type of bickering over them...and somehow I don't think it will turn into a 6 or 7 page thread on "Which is better"...like another one going on...Next time...Look for the writing on the side of the receiver that says ELITE...It's kinda hard to miss...

Mac

motordog80 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 11, 2007, 12:59:51 AM »

along the same lines, how does the OE break is it like the handy or more like the TC?? From the little experience I have with the TC, it is more user friendly to break. That also has to do with me shooting lefty.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** March 11, 2007, 03:48:39 AM »

The OE has a similar hinge pin to the Encore, but the latch engagement is similar to the Handi.

Tim

bigjeepman · « **Reply #11 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:15:10 AM »

Please forgive me for my humble opinion ...

The only negatives I have heard concerning the Optima Elite on GBO forums are from those who do not own one or who have not shot one. Opinions on the appearence are understandable because "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder." I see no benefit from the continuing bashing of a product that others are obviously pleased with. I bought my first Handi in my friend's gunshop a few years back because someone told me ... "you'll never get that piece of junk to shoot" as I was handling it. Well, I have been most pleased with that .223 bb "piece of junk" shooting sub-moa every time I take it to the range. Had I chose to listen to someone who I believed to think the Handi was "below" him, I probably wouldn't have ever been a part of this great group of people at GBO.

I feel very fortunate to be a member here because I feel I have made friends here and because of the wealth of knowledge that is shared so willingly. Do not misunderstand ... I am all for opinions/ideas/suggestions ... but, I personally feel some cross the line unnecessarily.

Brett · « **Reply #12 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:29:48 AM »

Forgive me Handi-Holics for I have sinned. I purchased a single shot other than a Handi for my daughter. Not only is it not a Handi but it's not even a TC or CVA. It's a.. a... Rossi. There I've said it. And further more I actually like it and enjoy shooting it myself. So there you have it, you can start casting stones now.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:34:18 AM »

Thanks BJM, appreciate your opinion.

No stone casting, Brett, just bullet casting!!

Tim

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:39:52 AM »

Brett you're a terrible person,I've already been eyeing the Rossi's up,and almost picked one up. Now you come along and start me wanting to pick the darn thing up.

Digger

McLernon · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2007, 07:00:08 AM »

Ok fellas, I made an honest mistake in judging the fit and finish of the Elite based on the CVA ML I inspected. I assumed that the action would be the same on all models------------------ again my mistake. I will do my best to locate an Elite and correct my error. The remaining comments stand. As for the accuracy of the Elite it will have to earn its own reputation by range reports as have our Handi's.

Mac

I do not have an axe to grind, really why would I?. If you really believe I do have an axe to grind then all I can say is you don't know me at all. As for my intentions they should not be judged based on the sometimes overly frank expression of my honest opinions. We have been bantering back and forth for sometme now about one of the mutual 'loves of our lives' , namely guns, and I would hate to see any bad feelings spoil it for any of us.

If I have offended any CVA owners I apologize.

Sincerely

McLernon

MSP Ret · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2007, 07:22:09 AM »

McLernon buddy there certainly may be some axes to grind here but they are not yours buddy, and although it was big of you, you owed no one an apology. There I have said it , I tried to hold my tongue through all this but if for some reason you don't like Handis anymore and want to shoot a CVA thats fine with me. I STILL like my Handis and want to shoot them. Now can we get back to talking about H&R's on this H&R site. There is a CVA site for those of you that have taken up their banner and want to push them and talk about them. If you want to shoot both thats great also, even better perhaps, but how about talking about each where that talk can be appreciated and will not become devisive. I thought we all came to this site for the information and friendship? If you want to knock Handis please do it in another thread, if you want to dsicuss Handis this is the place for that discussion, brotherhood, and honest and open exchange of information, not a place to complain about the guns that this forum is about...Thanks for listening to my feelings on the matter, and hopefully this will be the last time I have to vent on this unfortunate matter.
Your handiholic brother that still enjoys his Handis for just what they are...Andy....<><....

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2007, 07:59:24 AM »

MC:

As I said...it is your thread title that shows what and how your intent appeared to me..If I was mistaken then I do apologize...

Andy...This is a place where folks can come and complain about their Handi's...If they have a problem...We have always tried to help...When anyone...starts bashing them...is when we step in and redirect them some where else.

There will always be talk of different guns and comparing them to one another here......this is natural...we have always done that too...How it is done and in what manner it is presented will determine if it is allowed to remain.If someone brings up CVA's or Encores or any other single shot and wants to compare them..and give a real comparison...between a Handi and it...That is fine...But if it turns into a bashing type post...against the either...is where it will stop very quickly...

Mac

Fred M · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2007, 08:33:57 AM »

Mac.
You can talk all you want; uplift is determined by the weight distribution above and below the centerline of the bore and the center of gravity of the fire arm. Up lift has already been reported.

So who are you trying to kid? Getting into a huff is not changing anything.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2007, 08:55:38 AM »

No huff Fred...Read what those of us have found out to be the norm for these rifles...Till anyone actually shoots one...they really don't know how they react...no matter what someone says they should act like. Anything else is just supposition...

Mac

McLernon · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2007, 11:30:39 AM »

No Mac, there is sound physics too

Mc

MSP Ret · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2007, 11:42:49 AM »

I agree with Fred and McLernon on this, you cannot change the laws of Physics....<><....

NONYA · « **Reply #22 on:** March 11, 2007, 02:47:31 PM »

I have taken antelope,md,wt,elk and various other critters with my CVA .50,I doubt the inferior product I was using made any difference to them

Paul5388 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:31:40 PM »

I always figured ugly was ugly and the CVA is ugly, along with the T/Cs. It might be that some find an appeal in its ugliness, but that doesn't change the fact of UGLY is UGLY.

Now, some may argue that the Handi isn't a raving beauty, which, even though true, doesn't change the fact that it is basically the same design that has been around for over 100 years. Could we even say it's a traditional design that doesn't offend the eye? Sure we can say that and be truthful when we say it.

As stated, the tip barrel has been around a long time, but it wasn't until the advent of the T/C style that it has achieved that status of ugliness.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #24 on:** March 11, 2007, 04:47:14 PM »

As far as muzzle jump is concerned my 280 Handi,with the lam. stocks filled with no. 8 shot will let the barrel rise about 6" with free recoil. The CVA cliimbs about 1" to 2" at the most with a heavier load in the 30 06 than the 280 Handi,and has less felt recoil without andy weight in the stock. Will the CVA hold up and deliver better accurcy? Only time will tell if that's true.
I remember awhile back I reamed my 44 mag. to 445 supermag,and everyone claimed that I could'nt get the velocitys that I posted.Well to made long story short,12 guy's did the reaming to there's and everyone of them posted similar speed's of the 300 gr. bullet.( all of the chronoed loads were within 5 fps.of each other) So what looks like it can't happen,with a stock design sometimes will happen.Fred I understand what you're saying,but if you ever get a chance to shoot one of these rifles,do it. I garantee you're going to be shocked,just like I was. Digger

Fred M · « **Reply #25 on:** March 11, 2007, 05:34:09 PM »

Digger.
I have no doubts that you’re telling the truth. The only thing I did I brought a valid observation and explanation to the forum. Uplift does not run a rifle down; all of them do it one more than the other.

My interest was in a 7-08 for a kid, I promised to buy him a hunting rifle. But I have decided against the CVC and will buy a 7-08 Stevens, where I can get parts locally if needed.

For my self I might buy one if I ever get a chance. I don't really like the stock but if it shoots really well I might make amends.

I like nice looking wood stocks on single shot rifles that shoot three shots into a 1/2" without a lot of fuzz. To me a varmint rifle that doesn’t shoot into 3/8" at a 100 will not find a berth in my house.

Both my two Handi's are in that class and so are my Rugers#1, all of them are really nice to look at too.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 11, 2007, 08:32:22 PM »

Quote

I like nice looking wood stocks on single shot rifles that shoot three shots into a 1/2" without a lot of fuzz

.

Ohhhhh yesssss...So do I

Mac

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 11, 2007, 09:53:50 PM »

Quote from: Ditchdigger on March 11, 2007, 04:47:14 PM

As far as muzzle jump is concerned my 280 Handi,with the lam. stocks filled with no. 8 shot will let the barrel rise about 6" with free recoil. The CVA cliimbs about 1" to 2" at the most with a heavier load in the 30 06 than the 280 Handi,and has less felt recoil without andy weight in the stock. Will the CVA hold up and deliver better accurcy? Only time will tell if that's true.
I remember awhile back I reamed my 44 mag. to 445 supermag,and everyone claimed that I could'nt get the velocitys that I posted.Well to made long story short,12 guy's did the reaming to there's and everyone of them posted similar speed's of the 300 gr. bullet.( all of the chronoed loads were within 5 fps.of each other) So what looks like it can't happen,with a stock design sometimes will happen.Fred I understand what you're saying,but if you ever get a chance to shoot one of these rifles,do it. I garantee you're going to be shocked,just like I was. Digger

Digger.. I know full well how much less muzzle rise the CVA's have over the Handi's...Quick does too with his 7-08...and mine with the 243's and heavy bullets...With the lighter 55 grainers it hardly moved at all upwards...These folks are the ones who seem to keep wanting to compare the 2...funny...When you try to tell them...they don't believe it...Hell you have even offered to let them shoot yours...and if they are around here they can shoot mine...I am quite sure Quick would offer the same...

It is quite apparent many here don't know anything about stock ergonomics and how muzzle jump and perceived recoil can be minimized thru stock design...That's ok...Shoot one of these 1 time...you'll get a very quick lesson that will prove what we are saying...I'm done with this guys...

Mac

Brett · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2007, 01:44:17 AM »

Quote from: Brett on March 10, 2007, 11:34:17 AM

One observation I have about the CVA is that the line of the stock appears to be so low bellow the plane of the barrel that I would think it would be inclined to have a lot of muzzle rise, especially in heavier calibers. I have not shot a CVA so I do not know if this is true or not, like I said my hypothesis is based wholly on appearances.

As I said I was only surmising based on appearances only. If Digger and Mac, two individuals who actually own and shoot CVAs, say it ain't so then I will take their word on it. Don't know about the rest of you but there is always room for another gun in my house if it shoots well, appeals to my taste and I can afford to buy it. I venture to guess that very few of us own only Handis exclusively.

Ditchdigger · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2007, 03:14:10 AM »

Fred,I don't blame you one bit for buying a Stephens in 7 08,because if they were shorter I would be carrying one on my 4 wheeler. I've got a gun rack on the front of my Yamaha Grizzly,and I would swear that when I go through the 1/2 mile of blowdowns,beaver stumps,vines,and everything else on the island that I'm hunting on that the CVA is screaming and trying to jump off the wheeler.

. My Survivor is sitting at home still in shellshock from some of the rides it took. Anyway I like the single shots because they're easier to load and unload,and the 30 06 is just right for the smallest or largest hog I might come across,and the recoil is less with the CVA,so thats is what's being carried everyday now.

Digger