New Handi 223 w/22"bull barrel

[Rj 1]

I just purchased a new Handi in 223 w/ bull barrel what kind of accuracy can I expect w/handloads? I purchased some UMC Remmington 45HP just to shoot and get some brass, but so far I am getting about 2" groups at 100 with this ammo. I know the ammo is cheap but does this sound normal? I have been loading my father's savage 222 with the 40gr V-Max and 21grs of H4198 and am getting .750 groups at 100. Do I need to o ring the stud at the forearm? I talked with a great gunsmith about a trigger job and he quoted a price of $40 also. I have a Bushnell Banner 4x14x40ao on it with the weaver quad lock rings as low as I can get it. I have read that this is a very accurate caliber I just hope I can get it to shoot when I start to work up some loads. I was thinking of trying the 40gr V-Max in it also with H4198 when I get my dies here 

Thanks in advance,
Rodney

[DalesCarpentry]

Welcome to the site. I had the same 223 barrel and with Winchester white box 45 gr jhp. I was shooting sub moa every time out. The thing is you can't find wwb anymore. Good luck you will love this caliber.

[Rj 1]

I tried to do my homework before buying it. I wanted something that is accurate and cheap to reload for also. I have the bigger calibers in various rifles but ther is a big difference in 20-22 gr of powder and 52-73grs in what I am shhoting now in my 270 and 338wm, up to 3 times more shhoting per pound of powder . Does anyone have any favorite loads they would like to share for the 223 in this rifle? Any suggestions will be greatly appreciated. I am glad I stumbled across this site, it seems to have alot of good members who are willing to help newbies like me and make us feel welcome. I hope that I can become one of the valued members here also.

Rodney

[dw06]

I bought my 223 barrel used out of classifieds on here.Have only shot reloads and it was one of the easiest I've ever had to work up a load for and get to shooting groups  of 1/2-3/4 all the time.The owner had shot ww45gr with good results.Only thing I did was do the oring trick.Shoots 50gr a-max,and 50gr sxps right at half inch.Havent loaded many of the 40grs yet but they look good to!You will really like it.Big welcome to ya.

[Rj 1]

Did the o ring make a big difference?

[bigjeepman]

Welcome to GBO Rj 1 ... you're at the right place at the right time with a very good Handi in hand. I have the same Handi so the first thing I will say is be patient with the accuracy. I broke mine in with factory Winchester ammo (about 1.5 boxes.) I saved the rest of the second box for fouling shots at the range. So after about 50 to 60 + rounds through it (don't remember exactly), I started reloading for it. My rifle definately liked the 50gr Nosler BT and 50gr Hornaday Vmax bullets. I tried bullets below 50gr and bullets up to the 63gr Sierra SMP but my best results were the 50gr. Others here have had success with different bullets weights/powders but I tend to favor the Nosler BT and the Vmax bullets and Varget powder. Only adjustment to rifle ... O ring ...

My best loads to date:
Bullet - 50gr Nosler BT or 50gr Vmax
Powder - Varget 26.0gr
Brass - Winchester
Primer - CCI 400
OAL - 2.261"
Best 3 shot group - .248"


Bullet - 50gr Nosler
Powder - H4198 21.3gr
Brass - Winchester
Primer - CCI 400
OAL - 2.261"
Best 5 shot group - .420"





 

[myarmor]

Welcome to GBO. Seems to me you just need to break in that barrel, unless there is an underlying problem like side to side play or a lot of pressure on the barrel. Check out Macs suggestions on polishing the bore found in the Faqs. It can make a world of difference.


-Aaron

[stimpylu32]

Rj1

Welcome aboard

The 223 BB was the first handi that i got , the more that you shoot it the better it will get , mine likes the 50 to 55 grain bullets very well with 1/2" groups common .

Check the FAQs at the top of the centerfire forum for alot of info on how to improve the acc. , i have got mine to the point of 1" or less groups @ 200 yards .

As far as fav. loads mine likes H4895 and the 55 gr. V-Max .

stimpy

[Rj 1]

There is no side movement at all and I have not yet had the forearm off. I figured the barrel would need to be broken in. I have only shot 20 rounds thru it so far with a good scrubbing between shots. I will have to get some lapping compound and work it some. The last four shots thru it yesterday were with 2 touching and 2 flyers about 1.5" apart. I have another box of the same ammo to burn then I will start working on some handloads. I started to just by a bag of brass but I figured that I could break the barrel in and fire form the cases at the same time, which would save some time since the new brass would have to be FL sized to begin with. I may get a box of 50gr V-Max from Wal-Mart today to have some to try, I hope the 40's will shoot but who knows.

Thanks for the warm welcome I have received 

[mookster79]

Rj, I have tried several factory loads before I found a good one. I am just starting into the reloading game so I don't have any loads as of yet.  I like the black hills or ultramax reman. ammo for price and accuraccy.  Anything from 45 to 55 gr has shot well.  I stick with the vmax or nosler bt bullets.  Also, I would suggest a trip to the reloading forums a little further down on the page.  I am just starting to get into reloading and am basically collecting brass and reading manuals right now.  There is an infinite amount of knowledge to be shared.  Plus there are whole lot of handiholics on that forum as well.  Good luck.

[Rj 1]

Okay guys here is an update on my 223. I now have 90 rounds thru her and am very pleased with the accuracy  . I have been working on some handloads and have gotten my 3 shot groups down to .432 inches at 100 yards. Here is my load info if someone wants to give it a try:

Bullet: Hornady 50gr V-Max
Powder: Varget at 27.5gr (Books says this is max load)
Primer: CCI 400
Case: Remington
OAL: 2.285 in

I started out with the min load and worked my way up to max and the groups kept getting smaller. Don't know what speed it is shooting (do not have a chrony  ) Anybody wan't to take a guess at my speed? Just for giggles 

[BANG_OW]

RJ1,
       Be careful to not get too carried away on that 40 dollar trigger job. If you are shooting for about 3 lbs, pull up short of that by a lb or 1 1/2 lbs. I had to replace a trigger once because it just kept getting lighter and lighter as I shot it. It got to the point I was paranoid to shoot it in the winter, as it would go off way too soon. Great for target shooting, lousy for hunting. It may have been to the lube, or just wore in that way.  You can always go lighter later, but it is hard going the other way. Go toward the safe side of error.
Don

[Rj 1]

Have not had the trigger job done yet and probally wont if they tend to lighten up with a little age  , It really is not that bad. I am really impressed with how this gun shoots, I may have to go get another one 

[peeper1k]

Okay guys here is an update on my 223. I now have 90 rounds thru her and am very pleased with the accuracy  . I have been working on some handloads and have gotten my 3 shot groups down to .432 inches at 100 yards. Here is my load info if someone wants to give it a try:

Bullet: Hornady 50gr V-Max
Powder: Varget at 27.5gr (Books says this is max load)
Primer: CCI 400
Case: Remington
OAL: 2.285 in

I started out with the min load and worked my way up to max and the groups kept getting smaller. Don't know what speed it is shooting (do not have a chrony  ) Anybody wan't to take a guess at my speed? Just for giggles 

Hello..I'm  new to this forum. .
Rj1:   nice load/shooting  with the 223.  Just thought I'd pipe in with some additional info on your bbl.  Assuming at least a "W" on your second ser# figure ( 2006 date), then you have a 1-in-9" twist.  VERY NICE, since you can throw some heavy bullets at 600++ yards.  I have been 1000K shooting comp for 30 years, and when the 223 shooters started getting 1-9 and even 1-8 twists, using longer 70gr-class bt's, they started kicking butt in 1000K.  My '06 and 308 are just taking up space now.   I had to custom-bbl to get 1-9 twists in 223, since 1-12 has been industry std for a long time.   The 1-9" will sometimes over-stab a light bullet, but a properly selected/ designed mid-wt varmit bullet will make up for it.  The rotational speeds imparted by a 1-9 twist, at 223 velocities, is incredible. 
Example:  The 22-250 with it's 1-14 twist, even with it's higher vel, can't touch the "destructo-factor" of a 250,000 (therabouts)? rpm of a 1-9, using a proper bullet.  I had to rid an earth dam of a ground squirrel colony a few years back.  My 22-250 gave instant kills etc.  My 223 1-9" didn't just give instant kills, it atomized the buggers.  Minced-meat chunks for the hawks flying around.  Seems that rpms have a big part in a bullet fragging apart.

Frankly, I don't know how NEF can provide the Handi for such a good price.  For THAT kind of money I can't make a single bitch-moan-groan, since i paid more for my peep sights on my comp guns than my whole 223 bb Handi.  That's very, very cool.

[quickdtoo]

H&R apparently switched back to the 1:12" twist rate sometime  last year, the only way to know what twist you have is check it, see the FAQs for that. Regardless, the 1:9" twist H&R barrels have a very poor reputation for shooting the longer bullets that are normally expected to stabilize in the faster twist, one member was working with a 68gr and getting fair performance but you'll find that the 1:9" barrels only shoot well with 40gr-55gr just as the 1:12" barrels do, some shoot 60gr-64gr good, but only in a couple bullet makes. So save yourself some aggravation and frustration and stick to the those lighter bullet weights and you'll be happy, those bullets much over 60gr have a poor reputation in both the 1:12" and 1:9" H&R barrels. 

Tim

[peeper1k]

Dang. . I lucked out then, since I've found a good combo with this particular lot.  I guess you just never know.  Of course, my comp loads are very, very fussed over.  These are segged by water-volume, wt, lot#, checked for true: everything done for shot-to-shot consistency.  Perhaps more than the average NEF owner would subject himself to.  In fact, even more than I want to subject myself to nowadays. . . .which is why I bought the bugger.

Lucky for me I have a few thousand Horn' 55gr fmjbt's to load up  &  plink with when I run out of this lot of match bt's.  I'll consider myself lucky.  BTW, folks with 223 brass should treat them like gold.  Supplies are tight, with productions going to IRAQ. 

[Rj 1]

Mine is a "W" but I have not checked the twist rate yet. I think I will try the H4198 to see what happens and I may also try some 40 grainers thru it also. If I were guessing I would say the groups I have gotten with the 50's will be hard to beat. I don't have any pressure signs at all with the max load of 27.5 of Varget.

[peeper1k]

I haven't tried 4198 in a 223 yet.    It's incredibly clean burning in a 45-70 tho.  As in sterile clean.  Five other powders I've tried in 45-70 are normal foulers, but when I take a peek after 4198, I do a brain burp and wonder if I just touched one off afterall.

After what quick' said, I'm treasuring my remaining 69gr Matchkings since I'm getting 1/2" ten shot groups at 100 with the Handi bull. I may just keep them to make the gents that scorn the Handi eat some crow occasionally. Such is life sometimes.  I've already been jabbed at for buying the several Handi's I have now.  Sheeeese.    They stopped scowling when I used the 22" 45-70 NEF to win a standing sil. match last week.  The short gun kicked their sorry butts with level 2 loads. Some good 45-70 shooters shot like crap that day, and it was because I choose to go with it instead of my normal 26".  heh heh.  It psyched them out probably. I'm now a firm believer in psych warfare.  I don't think I would have won so easily if they hadn't been so shocked.  BTW, the bugger weighs almost 10 pounds.  Wow.

   Lead in the stock, forearm, and a Limbsaver helped take the thump away.  It wasn't bad at all, even  after 100 rds.  Of course, I was standing.  Sitting at a bench is brutal, I'll admit.   400grs at 1700 fps really wakes you up at the bench.

Please post results with your 4198 / 223 use.  I'd be interested in your twist. etc.,  also.  I hope it works for you.  i've got sooooo much 4198.

[quickdtoo]

Lead in the stock, forearm, and a Limbsaver helped take the thump away.  It wasn't bad at all, even  after 100 rds. 

Lead in the forend can pull the forend lug off the barrel, it's not welded on, there's a warning and a link about it in the FAQs, NFG had it happen to him with his hot loads.

400gr loads at 1700fps are nice start loads, try 525gr Piledrivers at over 1800fps if you want some nice loads. 

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

Tim

[Scootter]

Anybody wan't to take a guess at my speed? Just for giggles 

Between 3300 and 3400 FPS

Scootter

[peeper1k]

Lead in the stock, forearm, and a Limbsaver helped take the thump away.  It wasn't bad at all, even  after 100 rds. 

Lead in the forend can pull the forend lug off the barrel, it's not welded on, there's a warning and a link about it in the FAQs, NFG had it happen to him with his hot loads.

400gr loads at 1700fps are nice start loads, try 525gr Piledrivers at over 1800fps if you want some nice loads. 

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21

Tim

Thanks for heads-up, but I'm ahead of you there.  I use a hard padded worm strap around it already. In fact, I've bedded the bay  to prevent torque.   I took note of the light welding prior.   ( me being the engineering type from another life ago). . . I get razzed about my "Rat-Gun" looking freaky with my Williams Target peep with it's knobs protruding into space, trimmed comb to keep my head more vert, etc... but no worries to me.  Ugly to some, perhaps, but ugly is as ugly does, and this works as a steel banger very well.  I've even got a really wide trigger shoe ( about 5/8" wide). . so with an unaltered trigger it feels like no creep and 3Lbs.  I prefer a "really conservative" safe trigger on my guns that can kick in the 30 pounds recoil category.  In fact, with a high elbow, firm pull into the shoulder,  it helps me settle-in nicely while standing.  Firming up the stomach muscles slightly when/ at a good sight picture helps me at big-bore also.

BTW, is there something out there, short of new holes,  that will give more support at the front?  That's a small (single?) hole.  If I have to, I guess I'll add holes, but, . . ??
I need a dif front sight  ( globe). . .

Doesn't matter tho, I consider this gun a tool, not a gun-cab trophy, so it's ok by me.+

[quickdtoo]

Peeper, Check out the FAQs and Help sticky, lots of good info in there including custom work by Fred M.

You might consider adding a hooded front sight like the Lyman 17A that comes on the BC, I use it with the Lee Shaver inserts, even my old eyes can shoot well with it and the Williams FP Target rear sight on my .45-120 BC.

Tim


Rj 1, sorry this went off topic.  

[MZ5]

I missed this one earlier, Rj1, but congratulations on getting your .223 to shoot well!  I recently traded a barrel for a .223 from a member here.  It was too wintry to shoot it until recently, and now I'm so buried at work that I can't get out to shoot it.   Hopefully I'll see that kind of accuracy, too!

[peeper1k]

I'm sorry also Rj1. .   I got a bit carried away having all these gents around here with NEF-smarts.  Thanks Quick.. I'll  go read the sticky's now, like I should have before.   
and, yep, now that I take a good look, what I first thought was a spot weld(s)  isn't.   BTW, I've got Lee Shavers in all my Lymans also.. .wonderful acid-etching technique that fellow has.

[mitchell]

RJ1,
       It got to the point I was paranoid to shoot it in the winter, as it would go off way too soon. Great for target shooting, lousy for hunting.

you have a good point and with a lot of time spent with light triggers i have found this to be true BUT i shoot better with a light trigger , take that sucker as far down as you feel good with and shoot it a lot and learn that trigger . when you make better shots it makes you a better hunter . i have two 1 1/2 lb triggers that i use for hunting and i do darn well with them just be carful

[Rj 1]

I will try to get some loads worked up next week with the 4198 and let you guys in on the results. This group of handi holics are great it reminds me of my archery buddies