Author Topic: Revolvers and Laser Sights/ Support (Read 1554 times)

spy231 · « **on:** March 12, 2007, 08:34:08 AM »

Does anyone have advice on attaching and Mounting Laser sights on Revolvers? I have a Smith and Wesson Rounded N Frame that is used for protection against large game. Everything I find in my searches primarily gives lasers and supports for Pistols. The only thing I find is trigger guard mounts which do not seem reliable. I have also heard Crimson Trace Grip lasers are not consistently on target each shooting session. Could be a problem with protection from Wildlife. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks;

rockbilly · « **Reply #1 on:** March 12, 2007, 10:11:07 AM »

Go with the Crimson Trace grips and don't look back. I agree that there has been some talk about their accuracy, but most often when you hear this it is comming from someone that has had the grips off and didn't sight the gun in again before taking it out to use on game.

Think about this, would you take the scope off your hunting rifle, put it back, and then go hunting without a trip to the range? Anytime CT grips are removed from the gun, it must be re-zeroed. Do this, and I don't think you will have any problems.

JoeG52 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 12, 2007, 03:04:54 PM »

I haven't had the crimson trace very long, but they have been on target every trip to the range, including once when I took them off the gun between trips. A good check is to see where the dot is compared to your iron sights before removing & after replacing them. I still wouldn't bet on them being on target after having thme off the gun without a trip to the range. Like Rockbilly said, it's like removing a scope from a rifle.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #3 on:** March 12, 2007, 04:16:46 PM »

I've got the CTs on a Colt 1911 and an S&W 629. It'd be a big fib for me to claim I've give'n them a good workout at the range but so far they seem to be just the cat's meow. My purpose for putting on those two guns is for SD work and I firmly believe that at SD distances they are the best thing going.

Mikey · « **Reply #4 on:** March 13, 2007, 12:33:44 AM »

spy - hold it for a moment. You said you wanted lazer sights for defense against large game. The only large game I know of that could harm you won't stand still while you try and get your lazer sight pointed somewhere effective.

If you try and put a lazer dot on a predator's eyeball to blind it you will most likely prompt an attack. If you try to use a lazer sight in low light conditions and try to place your lazer point on a vital spot on some critter moving in on you for the kill I think you're gonna spend the rest of your afterlife wondering where the hay the dot went. I think you might be better off with a high intensity flashlight that would light up an area enough to get a sight picture and I would use that in conjunction with reflective night sights.

Another point about lazer sights is that while you are trying to get your focus (find your target) you are depending on one very small point of light to do that and are focusing on that dot, not the overall picture, and whatever large game you are worried about ain't gonna hold still for you. I'm not sure lazer sights are your best bet. JMHO. Mikey.

spy231 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 13, 2007, 02:53:21 AM »

Thanks for all the help guys!

rockbilly · « **Reply #6 on:** March 13, 2007, 04:19:13 AM »

Mikey. Normally I have the utmost respect for your opinion, but I have to differ with you slightly on this one. (You notice I said SLIGHTLY)

Many of my friends who are hunting the most dangerous game in the world are having great success with laser sights. If you don’t believe me, just ask the next combat troop returning from Iraq.

Most of the troops are purchasing either laser sights, or some form of red dot sight themselves, because the government doesn’t provide them for all of the troops. I understand the effectiveness of using the laser is very high, and for the same reason that I have cited several times. The troops can shoot accurately without bringing the weapon to a position where they are watching the sights, it is a simple process of placing the sight on target and letting it rip, while both eyes remain open to monitor what is going on around them.

coyotejoe · « **Reply #7 on:** March 13, 2007, 06:02:04 AM »

I got the Crimson Trace grips for my .357 Ruger SP-101 and can shoot much tighter groups than I ever got with the open sights. I guess I've reached a point where I just don't do well with open sights and a short barrel exacerbates the problem. I had to return them to the factory because the pressure switch never worked properly and soon didn't work at all, but they fixed it and got it back to me rather quickly. I also found the batteries had gone dead after a couple of months resting in its' holster at the bedside. I had thought that when not being used the batteries should last for years. I'm now curious as to how long the next set will last.

Dand · « **Reply #8 on:** March 14, 2007, 11:02:07 PM »

I too have an SP101 with CT grips and love the package. I am much more accurate and like someone said, can aim and fire at a target without bringing the gun up to eye level. I am thinking about putting the CT Hog Hunters on my 657 MG when it comes - and for the purpose Spy stated. Mikey might be right in some cases but often bears in our area (Bristol Bay Ak) are prowling in low light or very dark. In low light often one can see the bear but not your sights. A big flashlight and the laser could be a good combo as long as we're not talking a full charge. Even then having light to see or being able to see the laser on the bear from an awkward position might improve your chances.

As far as battery life - I've have my grips for 2 years or more and haven't changed the battery yet. But then I don't keep the gun on the night stand and keep the master switch off unless I'm packing the gun - which I don't do a lot.

Accuracy - my have been fine and a have shot quite a mix of 38 and 357 up to the 357 mag -180 corbons and Federals in that 101. A lot of med velocity 140gr stuff.

I think the CT grips are great. Wish they made them for my Walther P99.

sui generis · « **Reply #9 on:** March 15, 2007, 03:45:06 AM »

I have a pair of 642s with CT grips.

For me, they for self defense, not hunting.

In that role, they work just fine, IMO.

They are NOT for bright light situations, but in lower light (read, ordinary room light, or a little brighter) they work very well.

Don't LOOK for the dot - if light level is suitable for its use, it will be VERY obvious, and you'll have no problem finding it.

As far as keeping zero, you should have practiced enough to know where the dot is in relation to the sights and you should have a very good idea whether re-zeroing is required after removing and replacing the grips. Absent removing/replacing the grips, mine have not changed and even then, not enouigh to make any difference (maybe 1/2" @ 7 yds). Which is a good thing, as I found them a PITA to zero in the first place. Once done, however, they have held just fine.

pjh421 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:43:43 PM »

No way. No how. I might be old fashioned but if I thought I was going to have to use a handgun at night to protect myself I would surely not rely upon a laser emitter. As mentioned above, get a flashlight and keep it near the gun. That's not all. Get some tritium vials installed in your sights in case the flashlight doesn't work or let's say you drop and lose the flashlight. Tritium has no moving parts and lasts for more than ten years. What if your laser doesn't turn on because you just retrieved your dropped gun from a puddle of water? What if you can't see the dot because there's mud on the laser lens? What if you wind up holding the gun in such a manner that you can't depress the button to turn on the laser because your adversary is getting the better of you?

Things don't ever go like we imagine them. Keep it simple.

Paul

Chappy · « **Reply #11 on:** April 05, 2007, 03:24:14 AM »

I have Crimson Trace grips on two of my self defense handguns and find them reliable and accurate. They improve my groups when shooting my snub nose revolvers, but are no help in bright sun.
If you are thinking about putting them on a hunting firearm, check your state laws first. Here in Minnesota, firearms with sights that project a beam/dot onto the animal can Not be used for hunting. Red dot, none laser, sights are legal for hunting here.

rockbilly · « **Reply #12 on:** April 07, 2007, 10:13:38 AM »

pjh421. At one point I may have agreed with you, I was a student of Jeff Cooper, he was totally against laser sights, and badmouthed them at every opportunity. Through my own experience, I have learned that Jeff was not always right. I think if you had experience with the laser at night, or in low light conditions, you may agree.

I have had Crimson Trace Grips on several of my guns for a couple of years now, I would not do without them today. They make a good partner to the installed night sights, but provide an advantage over the installed sights in low light or dark conditions. In a SHTF situation you are in a better position of you have a full view of the playing field. This can be done with the laser sights. Pull the gun into your hip, place the red dot where you want it keeping both eyes fully open to see what is going on around you.

The laser sights are reliable, and only require occasional preventive maintenance to ensure they work, I do not advocate replacing the installed iron or night sights, but strongly recommend the laser sights as an addition for the advantage in a bad situation.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #13 on:** April 07, 2007, 11:19:04 AM »

And that's pretty much what an SD handgun is for, bad situations!

pjh421 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2007, 08:16:12 PM »

Rockbilly and Dusty,

I have lots of experience with the A/N PAQ-4 mounted on an M-16. This is just a pulsating I.R. flashlight you can zero to your bore. Actually it converges and then diverges with the bore line much as the lasergrip device does. And so, I believe that you're right about keeping both eyes on the threat and yes, it's a lot quicker to get on target than the traditional method. However, I have seen these break and fall to the ground even though they are much more robust than anything CT makes. Batteries go dead too. I'm sure that under ideal conditions your lasers will serve you well. Here's to ideal conditions. I was talking about me trusting my life to a particular system. If you like the CT stuff I wish you the best of luck with it. I've been convinced though that simple is better. I'm conditioned to look for that front sight and don't want to un-learn that. We fight like we train.

Paul

Savage · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2007, 12:09:58 AM »

As Rockbilly said, they are useful in addition to conventional sights. Using a laser is not going to make you "unlearn" looking for the front sight. With the proper grip and presentation, you're going to be looking at the front sight. From the retention position, I can see the value of having the laser for making more accurate shots. I'm sure it would be useful in low light situtations as well. I would guess that the CT grips are much more durable than other sighting systems that are attached to rails on the weapon. If it weren't for the price of these grips, I'd most likely have them on a couple of handguns!
Savage

coyotejoe · « **Reply #16 on:** April 26, 2007, 05:33:16 AM »

Well, I'm starting to have my doubts. I just returned the CT laser grips for my Ruger SP101 for a second time. They again went dead sitting on the nightstand, this time with the bottom switch in the "off" position, and this time, replacing the batteries did not restore it. These grips have never been carried, much less dropped, and have not seen 100 rounds fired. If they can't be trusted to work indoors, on a gun that is seldom fired, I'm not sure they can be trusted at all. For a defensive weapon reliability is the foremost concern. Power and accuracy mean nothing if you can't depend on it to work when needed. I'm thinking I should return to my previously trusted system of a tritium front bead only and to heck with group size, there is no place inside my home that would require a shot of more than fifty feet anyhow, mostly much less, and point shooting with the front bead is more than good enough.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #17 on:** April 26, 2007, 02:47:23 PM »

Every product on the market has a dud or two in the production line. CT grips are generally quite reliable. Return the grips to the mfg. and tell them the problem. If it happens again then chances are you are doing something wrong (I speak from personal experience!).

coyotejoe · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2007, 02:50:45 AM »

Hmmmm, maybe you can explain to me just what I may have done wrong while the gun sat untouched for a month. I took pains to see that the batteries were clean and free of fingerprints before installing them the previous time it went dead while sitting unused. That time the new batteries restored it to use. This time, new batteries made no difference. Anyhow, it is on it's way back to the factory so we'll see what they say. After two returns of grips that have seen very little use I think you can understand why I have lost confidence in this gadget.

rockbilly · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2007, 05:50:25 AM »

Coyotejoe. Several years ago, while in the car business, I won a Rolex watch in a sales contest. This was not a cheap watch, but the high dollar Rolex President, at that time selling retail for around $5000. Boy was I proud of the watch, all gold, hand made, and billed as one of the best in the world. I strapped it on the next morning, and off to work I go. About 11:30 that morning I looked at the watch, it read 7:20 am. I reset it and went about my business. A while later I checked it, it still read 11:30. The watch went back to the jeweler it was purchased from, I got it back about two months later, it still had the same problem, it went back to the jeweler again. This went on for almost a year, in, out, it never worked correctly. The watch was replaced. I wore the new watch for several years, it never missed a beat.

My point. Even the makers of the best products in the world occasionally make a lemon. I would say it is unusual for you to have two CT lasers in a row that were bad, but even so, I think I would give them another opportunity to make things right. I think once you have a good set of grips you will be satisfied

Bob Riebe · « **Reply #20 on:** April 27, 2007, 12:59:29 PM »

Quote from: rockbilly on March 13, 2007, 04:19:13 AM

Mikey. Normally I have the utmost respect for your opinion, but I have to differ with you slightly on this one. (You notice I said SLIGHTLY)

Many of my friends who are hunting the most dangerous game in the world are having great success with laser sights. If you don’t believe me, just ask the next combat troop returning from Iraq.

Most of the troops are purchasing either laser sights, or some form of red dot sight themselves, because the government doesn’t provide them for all of the troops. I understand the effectiveness of using the laser is very high, and for the same reason that I have cited several times. The troops can shoot accurately without bringing the weapon to a position where they are watching the sights, it is a simple process of placing the sight on target and letting it rip, while both eyes remain open to monitor what is going on around them.

To compare dangerous animals threat, to that of humans at war with each other is, at best, foolishness.

As Mikey said, dangerous animals move quickly while attacking, and they usually have very few spots that will stop them with any certainty; while one is busy trying to put the dot on the spot, the animal will be busy turrning the guy with the dot into hamburger.

If the firearm is so poorly regulated that it cannot be done with open sights, the laser is pissing in the wind.

Bob

coyotejoe · « **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2007, 05:17:44 AM »

Bob, no one is suggesting that you rip off the open sights and depend entirely on the laser. I totally agree that scopes and red dots have no place on a carry gun or dangerous game handgun since fast point shooting is out of the question with those items obscuring the natural line of sight. The advantage of the laser is that it does not obscure the open sights but is an additional sight for low light conditions, or positions that preclude aligning the sights or where time permits a careful aim. One still can point shoot with the front sight or with the laser, as the situation and conditions dictate.
And Rockbilly, I haven't yet given up on the Crimson Trace grips, but when they come back from the factory they will be given a long and exhaustive test period and will have to prove themselves before I can trust them. The other good point about a laser is that even when it doesn't work the gun is no less useful than if it had no laser in the first place. Unless one has become dependent on it, which I doubt will happen since I've used iron sighted handguns for fifty years before getting my first set of laser grips.

Dee · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:31:00 AM »

Quote from: pjh421 on April 07, 2007, 08:16:12 PM

Rockbilly and Dusty,

I have lots of experience with the A/N PAQ-4 mounted on an M-16. This is just a pulsating I.R. flashlight you can zero to your bore. Actually it converges and then diverges with the bore line much as the lasergrip device does. And so, I believe that you're right about keeping both eyes on the threat and yes, it's a lot quicker to get on target than the traditional method. However, I have seen these break and fall to the ground even though they are much more robust than anything CT makes. Batteries go dead too. I'm sure that under ideal conditions your lasers will serve you well. Here's to ideal conditions. I was talking about me trusting my life to a particular system. If you like the CT stuff I wish you the best of luck with it. I've been convinced though that simple is better. I'm conditioned to look for that front sight and don't want to un-learn that. We fight like we train.

Paul

As a retired police combat firearms instructor, and former swat team leader, trainer, I will have to attest to this man's statements. You indeed will fight like you train. Having been in two instances where I was required to respond with gunfire, I, each and every shot, hit what I was shooting at. Both times the stress caused me to have tunnel vision, my ears were muffled it seemed, things slowed way down, and I had no perceived awareness of recoil from my pistol. The first time was with a 357mag revolver, and the second instance I was carrying a Colt Lightweight Commander. Multiple shots fired on both occasions. Both lasting a few seconds. I cannot imagine trying to locate a red dot on an opponent in such an environment. I can however, appreciate Triigicon sights which I now have. At the time of my two experiences they did not exist, and I was shooting with no light available but car lights. I was pure instinctual, and as you can attest as I am writing this, I won both contests. NOTHING takes the place of training and nerve. Nothing! OFEX

rockbilly · « **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:13:01 PM »

Dee, Bob Riebe, All I can sat at this point is "What ever trips your trigger."

For me, based on my experience where I had, in some cases, as many as several hundred "dangerous animals" attacking me at one time, all armed, intending to take my life, or leave me wounded, I stand by my position on the laser sights, as the combat troops in Iraq do. During my two tours in Viet Nam, laser sight were unheard of, but had they been available, knowing what I do today, my weapon would have been equipped with them.

If you go back and read my post, I never said replace the gun's sights with a laser, but as a supplemental sighting system they can't be beat. I still prefer a good set of white outlined night sights on my gun, and the opportunity to choose the site according to the situation.

As for protection from a "charging dangerous animal," what is the probability of this occurring, and how often are you exposed to such a situation? Over a sixty year period, I have hunted almost everything in North American, with the exception of Musk Ox and Polar Bear, and never been in a situation where I was attacked. I had several close calls with pigs, one with a Polar Bear in Greenland, but was never injured by one. In my opinion, the thought of being attack by a dangerous animal (other that man) is so remote that there is really no cause to be alarmed. It does happen, but most often when it does, the individual has put themselves in a situation to cause it. In most cases a "dangerous animal" will retreat as quickly as you do, given the opportunity.

blhof · « **Reply #24 on:** April 29, 2007, 01:41:51 AM »

I put a CT on my Beretta 92 and have range shot many rounds. I can now shoot off hand without sighting and shoot 4" groups at 15 yards, with the laser off. With enough practice you develope muscle memory and it becomes automatic. I now practice both with and without the CT on.

Dee · « **Reply #25 on:** April 29, 2007, 02:09:34 AM »

I have found thru discussions with combat troops out of Iraq, (my son a Sgt. In the 82n Airborne being one of them with 3 combat tours) that many have discarded the lasers as useless unnecessary equipment and weight on the weapon, reverting to high intensity flashlights instead. My son's and many of his units preference (learned by experience fighting house to house in Baghdad) is the holograph sight, or the irons, using the ghost ring. Speed is of the essence in combat situations with this type of enviorment, and as one previously said it is about MUSCLE MEMORY. This knowledge of muscle memory is the key to instinctive shooting, and hitting ones opponent, or a good golf swing. Even the mythical dangerous hog, which I have hunted in my area for years and have NEVER experienced a charge, this muscle memory of ones chosen weapon can be extremely advantageous on quick shot presentation.
I think rockbilly, you read more into my post, than I wrote. I meant no insult.

rockbilly · « **Reply #26 on:** April 29, 2007, 06:57:56 AM »

Dee. No problem, that is what this forum is for, debate, and discussion.

I think all of you youngsters will become more fond of laser sights once your eye sight starts to fail, and it becomes harder to see the iron sights. I remember my session with Jeff Cooper many years ago, it was his thought that most of us could do without sights altogether for men and animals. It was his though that if a man practiced long enough with the point and shoot method, after a period, he could hit any moving target from the hip. In my younger days, I practiced on jackrabbits with a fair degree of success. Maybe it will be best if we start a movement to remove all sights from guns and learn to shoot this way. Just a thought.

Dee · « **Reply #27 on:** April 29, 2007, 09:38:36 AM »

Rockbilly, I thank you for the complement of youngster, however you must have missed the part of my first post as a RETIRED police instructor. I am almost 60 now, and my eyes are also not what they once were. I too used many of Jeff Cooper's ideas (though they were not originally his) and his concept of MIND SET, when teaching officer survival in a gunfight. However, good eyes or bad, one cannot ignore TRAINED MUSCLE MEMORY as one of the three major factors of success in surviving a life threatening situation. The other two of course being a clear head, and determination (or nerve). I cannot even focus on my front sight any more with any clarity, much less my rear one, but anyone that has watched me shoot a combat style course might not believe it, if they did not know me.
As you are a proponent of Jeff Cooper, you would have to agree that part of his statement; Give me a man with only one rifle, and I'll show you a man that hits what he shoots at. Was in part referring to MUSCLE MEMORY and training not, electronics. To quote Jeff Cooper one must remember that Jeff Cooper was a purist, in the art of fighting with guns. Thousands of rounds went into developing his level of skill, and I as he did, know that, that is the key to it all.
My youngest son at 23, has after embarking on his 3rd combat tour, come full circle in his journey with fighting weapons and sight systems. He started with what I taught him. The basics of winning. The Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS) method. He tried the electronics as in his position with the 82nd as a veteran combat Sgt. they are available. He tried them in real world trail by fire, and found them lacking. He is again focused on honing personal skill rather than technology. He has found that in real life combat, personal skill builds confidence i.e. a winning edge, and electronics builds dependence.
My motto in the class room and on the firing line was; Practice what you intend to preach, and if and when the time does come, you will indeed preach what you have practiced.

rockbilly · « **Reply #28 on:** April 30, 2007, 05:50:46 AM »

Dee. I guess it is OK to use the term "young man" since I do have a few years on you.

I recently retired (May 2, 06) from civil service after 26 years, working in the Logistics Branch where we purchased parts and equipment for the military. Prior to that, I was active duty military, retiring after a 24 year career in Aug '77. I had a break in military service, working for Texas Parks and Wildlife for two years when I was called back to active duty during Viet Nam. I also had a couple of years as business manager for an automobile dealership between my military and civil service.

So as you can see, I have a few miles on this old body too.

Dee · « **Reply #29 on:** April 30, 2007, 10:55:42 AM »

Yes, I can see more clearly now that you really are old.