Author Topic: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load  (Read 5996 times)

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Offline Mr. Joe

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Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« on: March 17, 2007, 02:20:41 PM »
After a very disapointing day with some handloads and my chronograph, i need to develop a new heavy game load for my 8mm mauser.  I was following the nosler loadbook wich is pure crap by the way.  They claimed to achieve 2700 fps with their 200grainer and 52grains of IMR out of a 24 inch tube.  No way jose, i got on average, 2400 fps out of the same length barrel.

I was thinking about trying the 175gr. sierra.  Do you all think this is a heavy enough bullet for elk and moose?  If not, would i be better off with the remington core lokt 185?
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Offline Mckie Hollow

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2007, 03:12:56 PM »
Try The Conely Precision Loads. They are about Max for the 8x57. Otherwise S&B does a good job about max.. Somwhere around 190 - 200gr. is where the 8x57 should be @. Forget those light weights. If You own a 8x57, There is no sense in having the 338 Federal. Just My Opinion

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2007, 03:53:11 PM »
After a very disapointing day with some handloads and my chronograph, i need to develop a new heavy game load for my 8mm mauser. ......
I was thinking about trying the 175gr. sierra.  Do you all think this is a heavy enough bullet for elk and moose?  If not, would i be better off with the remington core lokt 185?

Joe,

If you have a larger ring mauser that can take modern pressures, try a 200 grain Nosler PT over IMR-4895.  I'm getting 2,515 on chrono at 10' with this load in my 23.5" barrel Vz-24.

Sorry - I don't give out my Max loads - I figure it's close to 56,000 PSI.  But... a safe start would be 42 grains.
    Ray

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2007, 05:34:52 AM »
Rifle is a remington 700.  Im looking to at leat get into the 2600s with the 200 grainer.  Conley lists 2690 nosler 2700.  I know the nosler the load is crap as i only get 2400 fps on average, but somone has to have somthing that can get me close.
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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2007, 06:04:14 AM »
Quote
Rifle is a remington 700.  Im looking to at leat get into the 2600s with the 200 grainer.

  Do you think anything that bullet hits will know the difference between 2,500 and 2,600???  Here's what a 200NP at 2,500 did for me.



  And i have a lot more picts. just like it that one, as that load has been working perfectly for me for over 20 years now....

  DM

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2007, 08:54:47 AM »
I cant get the noslers to hit 2500!  My nosler manuel claims 2700, with the same load, i average but 2400!  I wanted the speed to flaten out the trajectory a bit, but it just doesnt look like its going to happen for me.  I have talked to a few other reloaders who have had the same things to say about nosler and their loading data.  Its consistantly 150-250fps off on the slow side. 
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Offline handirifle

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2007, 02:32:01 PM »
If you want flat trajectory with a 200gr bullet, get a 300WM.  Not meaning to come across as a smart a$$ it's just that some cartridges are never going to be flat shooters.  I bet that 200gr at 2400 will do just fine.
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Offline 7x57mm

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2007, 11:01:59 AM »
Joe: Check the twist rate in the barrel of the rifle you are shooting and then compare that twist to the rate of twist on the rifle the Nosler folks used to develop the loads. Just a thought!

Offline Blammer

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2007, 03:51:32 PM »
I have a rem 700 in 8mm mauser too and only get 2400 with IMR4350 and nosler 200 gr. IT is crap.

I would try IMR4895 and the 200's and the sierra 175's. I get my best accuracy out of the 175 sierra's.

Personally I have not hunted big big game like moose or elk but I would have no qualms about going after one with the sierra 175's. At the modest velocity they should do just fine. But like I said I have never hunted them.

on a different note....

I believe I am getting 2800 fps with IMR4895 and sierra 150's. I did chrony it.

Offline lgm270

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2007, 07:20:26 PM »
Check out this European all copper, hollow point 139 grain .323" bullet that reaches 3000 fps in an 8x57.

Pretty interesting.

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/8-mm-Bullet.htm

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2007, 12:55:40 AM »
I cant get the noslers to hit 2500!  My nosler manuel claims 2700, with the same load, i average but 2400!  I wanted the speed to flaten out the trajectory a bit, but it just doesnt look like its going to happen for me.  I have talked to a few other reloaders who have had the same things to say about nosler and their loading data.  Its consistantly 150-250fps off on the slow side. 

Hmmm have you thought that you might perhaps just have a slow barrel?

   It happens ........ my .308 gives lower velocities than claimed or expected although the deer have not been able to tell the difference.

Offline Blammer

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2007, 09:21:51 AM »
there are several I know of who are getting 2400 with 200gr Nosler and IMR4350. The book is VERY optimistic.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2007, 05:56:02 PM »
After a very disapointing day with some handloads and my chronograph, i need to develop a new heavy game load for my 8mm mauser.  I was following the nosler loadbook wich is pure crap by the way.  They claimed to achieve 2700 fps with their 200grainer and 52grains of IMR out of a 24 inch tube.  No way jose, i got on average, 2400 fps out of the same length barrel.

I was thinking about trying the 175gr. sierra.  Do you all think this is a heavy enough bullet for elk and moose?  If not, would i be better off with the remington core lokt 185?

Yes, 2,400FPS is about the norm, with some being a little faster. That & brass availability is exactly why the wildcatters came out with the 8mm-06, it will get 2,650-2,700 with its additional powder capacity. I know you may not want to do that to this particular rifle, but you would not have to beat your head against the wall to achieve your goal. If that velocity is what YOU want (and that is all that matters in this case), then your engine is too small.
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Offline kombi1976

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2007, 03:30:51 AM »
Umm, I may be missing something here but isn't there more than one way to skin a cat?
Do you really NEED 2700fps out of your 8x57 with a 200gn bullet?
One of the best things about the 8x57 is it's brilliant terminal performance on game.
The 200gn Nosler PT has at max PBR of about 230yds at 2400 fps and on a big animal like an elk or a moose it probably would be suitable out to 250yds which it has just under 5" of drop.
If you're hunting at long distances perhaps it isn't your best choice of cartridge but within 250yds, with some practise, I'd say most moose or elk are in a reasonable amount of trouble.
If you MUST have more velocity consider the Barnes 180gn TSX with a max load of H4895 and you should be able to approach 2700fps which increases you max PBR to around 260yds.
I don't hunt elk or moose but I'd be thinking that if you want good performance on big game with comparatively lighter bullets then you'd be happy to invest in premium bullets.
Personally, and as I indicated before I have no actual experience, I'd be stalking that extra 50yds. ;)
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline swampthing

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2007, 01:55:56 PM »
www.beartoothbullets.com - bullet selection - 8mm - 175g LFN GC.  Lead is sliprier than copper, you'll get some aditional speed with that one. Plus that bullet that will shoot through the biggest elk and moose you come across. Give'em a call, it's free. 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2007, 04:07:11 PM »
www.beartoothbullets.com - bullet selection - 8mm - 175g LFN GC.  Lead is sliprier than copper, you'll get some aditional speed with that one. Plus that bullet that will shoot through the biggest elk and moose you come across. Give'em a call, it's free. 

Long Flat Nose? This bullet at 2,700 would drop more than the NP at 2,400, ALOT more. And the NP will penetrate more than enough with expansion, no comparison.

Let's keep in mind what Mr. Joe wants to accomplish with a 200 NP/2,700FPS load. He wants a flatter trajectory. I don't think anyone will question the penetration at 2,400 or 2,700. The NP would do that well at either MV.

And we know that the NP will kill at 2,400, just a matter of the range & distance that Mr. Joe is interested in, no one else. A good broadhead will work & a 44 mag Handgun as well. And who cares, if he wants 2,700fps & he is paying for the stuff, why are others concerned that he doesn't need it?
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Offline swampthing

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 01:40:05 AM »
200g@2700, Sounds like thats not going to happen with that powder.  So...
               The B.C. of that 200g spire point partition is higher than the "shorter" and "blunter" {if thats a word} 175g LFN, but it is not that much higher. Doesn't matter anyway the increased velociity more than makes up for that. If both bullets are sighted 3" high at 100, drop at 300yds will be the with in a .5" of each other, comparing the 2 velocities stated, ie; LFN@2700/NP@2400fps.
                @ 300yds velocity of the NP will be less than 1900fps, what does nosler say about minimum velocity for expansion with that bullet.
                Yah, paper ballistics are good, for trajectory, but a pin hole through an elk, because the bullet didn't expand enough, will have you on you're hands and knees for a long, long, distance.  A LFN @1600fps {300yd impact} will cut a .75" permanent hole all the way through, that elk is not going to live, if you did your part. Food for thought.
swampthing

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2007, 03:40:37 AM »
200g@2700, Sounds like thats not going to happen with that powder.  So...
               The B.C. of that 200g spire point partition is higher than the "shorter" and "blunter" {if thats a word} 175g LFN, but it is not that much higher. Doesn't matter anyway the increased velociity more than makes up for that. If both bullets are sighted 3" high at 100, drop at 300yds will be the with in a .5" of each other, comparing the 2 velocities stated, ie; LFN@2700/NP@2400fps.
                @ 300yds velocity of the NP will be less than 1900fps, what does nosler say about minimum velocity for expansion with that bullet.
                Yah, paper ballistics are good, for trajectory, but a pin hole through an elk, because the bullet didn't expand enough, will have you on you're hands and knees for a long, long, distance.  A LFN @1600fps {300yd impact} will cut a .75" permanent hole all the way through, that elk is not going to live, if you did your part. Food for thought.
swampthing


Actually, the BC of the NP is much higher @ .426, which is quite good.  I went to the Beartooth site & they don't list a BC for that bullet, & why should they? The bullet was not designed for 300 yard shooting of game, as any hunter would know. So even with your new set of rules that you want to throw in, 2,700 vs 2,400, yes the NP would be flatter. But why ignor what he wants, he wants the NP or a comparable spire point bullet at a vel. of 2,700 & it doesn't matter what you or I want. That's why I made the first post about a 8mm/06, if he wants the velocity, he needs a bigger case.

I hunt with hardcast bullets too & I like them in the proper application of larger bores & big bullets as in 45-70, 444 & big bore handguns. They are very effective in that application. They did design the 8mm bullet for a reason, it is a bullet that an owner of an 8mm can use when he wants to harvest game at close to moderste ranges with a cast bullet. No one I know with any hunting experience whatsoever would use this bullet to hunt game at 300 yards & over. What those that do this kind of hunting never consider is wind drift. A flatnose bullet at 1,600fps will be blown all over the place at 300 yards in a Western wind. So then we would have a hole punched in the animal (.75" or perhaps not .75") and hit too far back or
in the leg, whatever. Do you think that maybe why I don't ever hear about any Elk hunters using this bullet?   ::) But I have heard of experienced hunters using the Nosler Partition at 2,400-2,500 fps quite a bit, go back & look at Drilling Man's post. The effectiveness of the NP as Drilling Man used it was not questioned by anyone as far as I know. But I can tell you that I would not hunt with anyone if they tell me beforehand that they are using an 8mm with a hard cast FN & is willing to shoot an Elk or Moose at 300 or more yards with that set-up!  :o  No, I would stay a long ways from that "hunter", thank you very much.

Remember, he is asking how to get a flatter trajectory by increasing vel. of the bullet HE wants, not what you or I want. For me, I would go to a whole different cartridge, but that is not what Mr. Joe is asking about, therefore irrelevant.

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Offline Drilling Man

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2007, 04:31:24 AM »
Quote
@ 300yds velocity of the NP will be less than 1900fps, what does nosler say about minimum velocity for expansion with that bullet.

  I shot a coyote at "close" to 300 yards a 200NP, and the bullet did show a small bit of expansion, but of course that bullet sailed on through too...

  I've harvested numerous whitetails with it at 200 yards and it expanded VERY well....  As a matter of a fact, the one in this pict. was at least 200 yards away...



  Bottom line is, i just don't think you have to worry about whether or not an NP will expand at least some at 300 yards on an elk, starting out at 2400, of course an NP won't make up for poor shooting either...

  DM

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2007, 05:08:20 AM »
If I am seeing correctly, that is a pretty heavy Whitetail, nice buck for sure! And yes, the NP will still expand even at 1,900, which is at the lower end.

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Offline swampthing

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2007, 03:31:33 PM »
I have 2 questions,
   1. Are you reaching 2400fps then accuracy starts to taper off, or, is 2400fps as fast as it will go.
   2. Have you tried barnes tsx's, they are all copper, thus, a 180g will be about the same length, ie; S.D., as 200g lead core bullets. These bad boys penetrate. Note the grooves in the bullet, they reduce bore friction, which increases speed and/or lower pressure, depending on the load of course. Barnes says they expand down to 1600fps, might be a little stretch. They are spitzers to boot.
                            To the other poster, nomosendero, I was going by what "you" said about the difference between the LFN and the NP at the velocity that "you" stated. Please do not try to put words into my mouth... they get in the way of my foot. 
Wind deflection of the LFN at 300yds is 4 inches further out than the NP... 4 inches, big deal. Elk kill zones' are huge, the moose, even bigger.
 LFN's $14.50 per hundred.  They work excellent.
 Nosler's cost how much? For a Fifty pack? They won't go 2700fps!!!
   


   

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2007, 04:33:21 PM »
I have 2 questions,
   1. Are you reaching 2400fps then accuracy starts to taper off, or, is 2400fps as fast as it will go.
   2. Have you tried barnes tsx's, they are all copper, thus, a 180g will be about the same length, ie; S.D., as 200g lead core bullets. These bad boys penetrate. Note the grooves in the bullet, they reduce bore friction, which increases speed and/or lower pressure, depending on the load of course. Barnes says they expand down to 1600fps, might be a little stretch. They are spitzers to boot.
                            To the other poster, nomosendero, I was going by what "you" said about the difference between the LFN and the NP at the velocity that "you" stated. Please do not try to put words into my mouth... they get in the way of my foot. 
Wind deflection of the LFN at 300yds is 4 inches further out than the NP... 4 inches, big deal. Elk kill zones' are huge, the moose, even bigger.
 LFN's $14.50 per hundred.  They work excellent.
 Nosler's cost how much? For a Fifty pack? They won't go 2700fps!!!

 


   



There are people here & there who could put their foot in my mouth, but you aren't one of them!!  ::)  But I am easy to find.

4" difference in wind drift, no big deal you say? Because the animals are big, you say. Well, a little error can occur with the rifle itself, a 1.5" gun will allready be off some, then the traj. can be a little diff. than you thought, combine those with 4" more drift& yes, it can be a big deal real quick.
And this is with a broadside Elk, most people who don't do their Big Game hunting from a keyboard know that more often than not the Elk can be at an angle. Now, lets look at what 4" does when aiming at an animal standing at an angle. Quite likely, this is the diff. between a hit & a wound. I
have never heard of a man with shooting/hunting experience say that an extra 4" off is no big deal on any size game animal.

I spoke to you in terms of the NP at 2,400 in regards to the comparison of traj between that bullet & a cast flat nose at 2,700. And yes the NP is flatter. What I meant by your set of rules is that you want to compare the NP at 2,400, a vel. he does not want to settle for & a cast slug(FN) at
2,700, which is the way you want to compare. Get it? The whole purpose of the thread is that he is asking for a way to get more vel. with that bullet, not to stay at that velocity & certainly not to use a bullet that would be unsuitable for Elk or Moose at max. ranges. Any experienced big game hunter would not dream of using a 8mm cast bullet at 300 yards or more. You say they work good. For this application? What is your evidence? Of course if you can come up with a viable story where someone has shot such an animal, just 1 at 300 or more yards with this set-up, I am all ears. I know that you have not, too many things point to novice here. You say in many posts that you should not use anything smaller than a 30 cal for Deer. You even say that you had a bad experience with a 7-08 on a Whitetail (and it was not long range) So, you go from a 7-08 being too light for a Deer (according to you) to a  8mm cast bullet being an elk bullet at 300 yards. A good Bull is 4 times the weight or more of a good buck. A 7mm, 140 gr. expanding bullet not enough for a Whitetail & a 175 Gr. non expanding bullet at 300+ working well on Elk & Moose.  Oh, I see!   ::)      Forgive me if I feel you are clueless.



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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2007, 06:35:35 PM »
Swampman, even though it is a no-brainer to not use this cast bullet for this purpose, I am curious about the following:
1. What load are you using to get this velocity. Most Lyman loads top out at more like 2,200, but some at about 2,500 in the various calibers.
2. What verifiable data is your reference or a reference that anyone could use?
3. What balistic program are you using to get your traj. & wind drift data?

What to heck, someone may want to punch paper with this at 300 yards, who knows, allthough I doubt it.
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Offline swampthing

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2007, 03:52:33 PM »
No problem,
1. This is the velocity that you stated, not me, I mearly used your statement as a reference.
2. Most lyman loads are not for 21BHN LBT bullets, with GOOD lube, Lyman has to show loads that low for not all people use the same allow, heat treat, water drop harden, use good lube etc... etc... with thier bullets.
3. If he is getting 2400 with a 200g jacketed bullet, the 175g hardcast should have no problem clocking 2700fps.
4. If you used load data for a, "hot", 21BHN cast LBT with good lube and a gas check for a #2 alloy, 16BHN, no gas check and alox lubed bullet, you would have a disaster waiting to happen.
5. Hornady's manual has wind drift and trajectory data.
6. The B.C. of a 280g .432" 280 WFN is .221 The 8mm hardcast, being longer and a lot sleeker in a LFN profile is a bit higher than that handgun bullet. I low balled it. Used a B.C. of .250 just to play it safe. If the LFN's B.C. was that low, who cares, it is still on the heels of that NP spitzer, because of the velocity difference, and again just going on worst, B.C., case scenario.
7. If you don't believe me try it.
Be safe and shoot straight.                         
swampthing   

Offline Mckie Hollow

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2007, 04:24:43 PM »
Mauser 98------- in 8x57. In the last --------100years? what has been better?------- Get one Go Huntin.

Offline kombi1976

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2007, 05:45:21 AM »
Where in all this tomfoolery and mumbojumbo, may I ask, is Mr.Joe?
Have you decided on a load yet, mate?
I'll be interested to know whether you're still chasing velocity or are happy to go with the lower speeds.
8)

Cheers & God Bless

.22lr ~ 22 Hornet ~ 25-20 ~ 303/25 ~ 7mm-08 ~ 303 British ~ 310 Cadet ~ 9.3x62 ~ 450/400 NE 3"

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2007, 04:58:51 PM »
No problem,
1. This is the velocity that you stated, not me, I mearly used your statement as a reference.
2. Most lyman loads are not for 21BHN LBT bullets, with GOOD lube, Lyman has to show loads that low for not all people use the same allow, heat treat, water drop harden, use good lube etc... etc... with thier bullets.
3. If he is getting 2400 with a 200g jacketed bullet, the 175g hardcast should have no problem clocking 2700fps.
4. If you used load data for a, "hot", 21BHN cast LBT with good lube and a gas check for a #2 alloy, 16BHN, no gas check and alox lubed bullet, you would have a disaster waiting to happen.
5. Hornady's manual has wind drift and trajectory data.
6. The B.C. of a 280g .432" 280 WFN is .221 The 8mm hardcast, being longer and a lot sleeker in a LFN profile is a bit higher than that handgun bullet. I low balled it. Used a B.C. of .250 just to play it safe. If the LFN's B.C. was that low, who cares, it is still on the heels of that NP spitzer, because of the velocity difference, and again just going on worst, B.C., case scenario.
7. If you don't believe me try it.
Be safe and shoot straight.                         
swampthing   

That is a good & cival post, & I will take that as an example to follow.

I will look at these things that you have mentioned. They do make a difference, but we can't just stretch that info & techniques for better cast bullets into real data on this matter, otherwise someone would be able to give us some verifiable data on this subject.  We should avoid saying something SHOULD work in a technical matter such as reloading. Verifiable data is "where it's at" in my view.

I must take exception to the use of this bullet for application given (Elk & Moose at 300+). We will just have to disagree on that one until an example is given of anyone who has done it under the conditions stated.
Have a nice weekend.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Mr. Joe

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2007, 04:02:01 AM »
I still cant decide on a load for anything bigger than deer!  I couldnt goose the 200 grainers any faster with IMR 4350.  2400 was all i could manage and that was with a compresed load!  I may lean towards the Sierra 175gr flat base.  I should be able to easily hit mid 2700s and the good folks at Sierra tell me its constructed in such a way that it will hold togetherand dig deep enough to knock over any animal on the continent at the speeds we are talking about.  Ill let you know how my load development goes.
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Offline lgm270

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2007, 09:32:31 AM »
Here is a link to a European all copper bullet, very much like the Barnes X-bullets.  It is 139 grains with a muzzle velocity of 3,000 fps.  It is shown with results on large European boar. 

Check it out:

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Englisch/8-mm-Bullet.htm

Offline S.S.

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Re: Help with an 8mm mauser elk/moose load
« Reply #29 on: March 26, 2007, 04:22:05 AM »
I like that new European 8mm round I have seen them before but have not found any to purchase
without having to import them.
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".