A hypothetical question of pressure?

[handirifle]

I got to thinking, dangerous area for me, about different cartridges and pressures in the same gun.

Here's my thoughts.  Please no arguments or nasty comments about "book" loads and pressures, yada yada.  It's not about what one might or is gonna do, it's about what IS being done and why does it work.  Please, no well intentioned advice on "don't do it" or anything similar, this is not a plan but a question.  One I'm sure that I'm not the first to wonder about.  Even Elmer Kieth did similar in helping to develop the 44 Mag in his 44 Special revolvers.

The thoughts run like this.  When you have one exactly identical action, that is used for different cartridge loads with SAAMI pressure levels that are WAY different, what makes one a safe load and the other not.  Some examples might be the 270 Win, vs the 280 Rem.  Or the 7X57 vs the 7-08, another might be the 375 H&H vs the 375 Ruger (I believe I read the Ruger is a 65K round)?  Some of the more modern loadings are pushing all the way to the 65K PSI levels, in the same action as rounds rated to no more than 50K.

Now, ASSUMING there is either no, or negligble differences in brass design or thickness, why is one case safe to the 65K level, but the other only to the 50K?  Remember the actions are the same in this example, and they have been used for both rounds from the factory.  I've read MANY times of people loading the 280 to 270 Win pressures, in similar type actions of course, and recommending it be done, with zero pressure problems.  The comment is that it's bringing the 280 up to the design it SHOULD have been if it were first sold in bolt guns.  I understand the 280 was first developed for an autoloader, thus the reason for lower pressures.

With that said, what would make it unsafe, NOT SAYING I, OR ANYONE ELSE IS GOING TO, to load say, a 30-06 case to levels of other cases, of similar thicknesses but much higher SAAMI levels?  Now I can see it if the base of one case is much thicker than another etc, but this example is based on similar case thicknesses.  Also assuming that if one DID load said '06 case to say a 65K level, that no pressure signs were showing up.  Wouldn't that be simply bringing an older round up to modern firearm pressure levels?

Again, please keep advice to ones self, that is NOT what this is about.  I'm looking for technical reasons only.

[trotterlg]

I would say as long as the case diameter is equal so that the pressure on the bolt or breach is the same that there is, most likely, no reason not to load to the higher pressures.  When the cartridge was developed it may have been pressure limited for a lot of reasons, like if it were for use in a revolver, or a blow back type of automatic.  If the intended weapon had a type of action that could not stand over a certian amount of pressure or if the brass or primers to be used limited the loading.  It may also have been developed before the materials existed that would have made it safe at a higher loading.  Larry

[wtroger]

You are correct the 98 mauser was first built and used for cartridges in th 45-50 k range yet we regularly rebarrel and open up the bolt faces for cartridges in the 60-65k range. This is also why there are three diffrent sets of loads for the 45-70 based on action strength. The load you finally settle on depends on action strength and cartridge strength. So what im saying is if you want to take a 30-06 to 60K in a good strong action you can probably do it. But each action is different and the different brands of brass very considerable so pick your components carefully. Also remember that the cartridge manufactures already do some of this. There are factory loads out there that specifically exclude certain actions.

[handirifle]

trotterlg
I don't think case dia is as much of an issue here.  I know it DOES make a difference on pressure on the bolt face, but the assumption was as long as it is already chambered for a higher pressure cartridge, does it make a difference?

Savage rifles are a good example of this.  You can buy one chambered in 300 WM and it uses the same bolt as the 30-06.  Likewise the 300RUM's when they were available.  It's a matter of rebarreling and changing the bolt face to a larger one, if necessary.  The action still is capable of much more.

wtroger
You are correct, at least in my theoretical view here.  And yes different brands of brass are thinner/thicker than others.

I find it interesting how this all plays out in performance of a given cartridge.  A prime example, to me, is the old version of the 30-06 loads, and the Military's replacement, the 308 (7.62 NATO actually).  It has smaller case capacity, but is simply loaded to higher pressures.  This seems to be the trend nowdays.

[Graybeard]

I'm gonna be REAL UNKIND rat off the bat.

If you don't want people's OPINIONS then don't ask a question on GBO as that's what it's for it to give opinions on questions when asked. To ask a question and tell folks you don't want to hear their opinions kinda pisses me off. In fact so much so I came real close to dumping this post in the trash can and I still MIGHT.

[handirifle]

Whoa! GB.  You're taking it all wrong.  All I was trying to prevent was someone getting into the "don't go past book loadings cause...." debate.

This question isn't about that, it's not that I want to or am suggesting it, but rather to learn about what and why's of what ammo companies are using as data to determine why specific rounds arelimited to certain pressures and others go much higher, in the same action.

On the contrary, I WANT their opinions, just not arguments over safety.  This isn't what the post is really about.

Sorry if I wasn't clear about that before.

[handirifle]

The Handirifle in 45-70 is a good example.  SAAMI levels are basically trapdoor level loads, yet, the Handi, Ruger, Marlin and many others will accept MUCH heavier loads and many manuals PUBLISH 3 levels of 45-70 loadings.  Just wondering why the same isn't done for many other rounds.

Those that publish those manuals obviously trust one is smart enough to tell what rifle they're using, and place the responsibility on the loader, rightly so.  So why not do the same with other rounds as well?

Can the 280 from a bolt gun be loaded to the same pressures ase the 270, which out performs it in factory loadings?  The 280 actually has MORe case capaicity, so it should be a better performer.  Yet they only publish data that is suitable for ALL rifles, including the autoloaders it was originally made for.

I guess all I'm asking is why don't they update the manuals in those areas, and what are they using as criterea for keep certain loads at certain levels?

[billy_56081]

 The reason the .280 was loaded to lowers pressures kinda baffles me? Wasn't/isn't the 740 and 7400 available in .270 and 30-06 and other cartridges at the slighley higher level? Handirifle u asked a very good question and I will love to hear some answers.

[Smokin Joe]

I think it may have a lot to do with the "lowest common denominator"...............the weakest gun that the round is chambered for; ie. the 7x57 in a rolling block or a '93 Mauser.

[McLernon]

Remember a design is based on permissible force which is pressure(psi) times area( square inches). As it has been pointed out some actions are stronger(can withstand a higher force) than others.

Mc

[Fred M]

I really think this discussion belongs in the trash can. Besides Savage bolt guns are not part of this forum.

[myarmor]

I think this is an excellent question to send out to reputable manufactures, like Berger, Speer, Sierra, Hornady, and Nosler. I believe they would offer a clear answer to what you are asking.

http://www.bergerbullets.com/

http://www.speer-bullets.com/default.asp?s1=2&s2=25

http://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=techservice&page=faq

http://www.hornady.com/contact_us.php

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=25



-Aaron

[pills]

This is what I am talking about. Posts like this are what keeps me coming back to this forum. Searching for what is actually being done instead of what people think can or cant be done is what makes the internet great.

Keep on looking until you find the druids you are looking for.

[nomosendero]

A hypothetical question about real pressure ratings, hmmmm. Well, knowing what the pressure ratings are is helpful, the why's are less helpful.

You have the SAMMI Pressre load ratings for all cartridges. If you need to know the why for each, then bang away, but it would be a silly exercise, it should be enough to know what the rating is, as you can not change the rating anyway.
Then with that knowledge, you can work up your loads from at least 10% below max. rating, If you rifle is designed for that cartridge  & yes some manuals show what the pressure is (in that gun), & work up slowly like a responsible person would. When you reach max., SAFE prssure, you are done if it is accurate. The point being that unless you have accurate pressure testing equipment, you won't know the pressure in your gun anyway, so what would be the point in this why you ask about?

[handirifle]

Finally some interesting feedback , first off, this is NOT about ANY bolt gun or ANY brand, it's about the why's of what we call  "solid" data.  I suppose if someone questioning conventional wisdom belongs in the trash can, then that must mean there is nothing left to learn?

Has no one ever wondered WHY something is the way it is?  Why do we have to have a permit to build a house? Why are there building codes and why do we need to adherre to them?  safety?  Most likely, but how did each individual rule come about and why.  Why a 4" header above a door, why not just 2"?

These are the same type of questions I'm asking about pressures, and my reasonings have nothing to do with needing any pressure equipment.  Remember at the beginning when I said I was neither encouraging or suggesting anyone try loading above SAAMI pressures?  I still do not need any testing equipment because since I'm NOT planning on loading ANYTHING overpressure, at least not on purpose, this is all still hypothetical.  Yes we can have hypothetical questions about real things, and pressure is a real thing.

I seriously doubt anyone on this forum has pressure testing suitable to determine exact pressure of any of their reloads, but that does not stop us.   Read the manual, load, look for pressure signs and adjust accordingly.  That's what we do.

I'm not trying to start any war or suggest we throw out the books, not by a long shot. but I DO like to know why the data is STILL kept where it is.

Yes I know the rifles calibers like the 7X57 were made for were like modern trapdoor rifles, but WHY have the manuals NOT been updated for guns even like the Handi that can handle much more than the original load levels.  If they can say the brass would not hold up to modern level pressures, then that might be a valid reason, but I'd like to see it.

Let's be real, NO BRASS CARTRIDGE made today would hold the pressure , BY ITSELF, if it were not contained in a modern action, be it single shot, bolt or lever, so with that in mind and considering the handi in 45-70 is a prime example.  That old brass case wasn't designed to take the pressures modern smokeless powders produce, but in modern actions, it does!

Some disagree with me, even questioning my motives and that's OK, I just want us to think, and wonder why!

[handirifle]

FWIW, I posted this on the Savage shooters forum and I'm getting a lot more response here, both good and bad .  Keep it coming guys, we need to understand WHY it is the way it is.  By the way, I posted it HERE because I respect you guys and your opinions and experience, even if you don't agree with me.

GB if I haven't said it before I do really appreciate even having a place where we CAN disagree, and have no desire to jeapordize that.  Thanks for your hard work and continued offering of this site.  I am not one that bites the hand that feeds him, but I do say my opinion and DO respect others when they say theirs.

[Mac11700]

Well...Let's ask...How does this pertain to our Handi's shall we...?

For the 280...you as an individual who reloads...decides at what pressure level your going to load it to.The factory on the other hand... has to load it to it's approved SAMMI levels...

This has been the way of it for a very long time...and it won't change...Yes...there are specialty ammo makers that will load it above levels the main companies won't...but they are clearly marked for what actions it is acceptable to fire it in...

To your hypothetical question...You will never have 2 exact rifles...You will never get exact pressures...accuracy..or barrel life...You can get close...but never exact...Way to many variables...Way to many differences in our Handi's...What may work perfectly fine for 1 rifle...and exhibit no signs of high pressure...may be a complete overload for another rifle...piercing primers..rupturing brass..causing the shooter or who was near by the shooter to have a very bad day...( This is a possibility ) 

The pressures given by the bullet & powder companies along with their reloading data are guide lines to follow...They know full well it is not an exact science...but are reasonably confident that if their directions are followed with the components listed..safe ammunition can be crafted...that will fall reasonably close to what they have published...and everyone states this in those manuals...

Does everyone follow these guidelines...NOPE... Some never do listen to what the manufacture tells them...Some have some computer programs that gives hypothetical results...from hypothetical values or they may think that they can do some mathematical calculations to prove their point and suddenly they have become more knowledgeable than the company that builds the rifles they are shooting them in...or the companies who builds the ammunition/powder/bullets they load ..Sure...they may have a ton of data to draw from...but...it will never be 100% correct...It can't be...Since every component will be different each and every time you use it...just as each rifle is different as well...Computer programs can be wonderful tools for us hand loaders...but they are just giving hypothetical results with the data that was given at the time it was written...They do good for a-lot of things...but they aren't perfect...

The age old advice of starting low & working up is sound advice...not to be taken lightly...wither you are a beginner...or an old hand at reloading...and with the 280( or any cartridge for this matter )...this is exactly what you as a responsible hand loader much accept...and follow...

The Handirifle in 45-70 is a good example.  SAAMI levels are basically trapdoor level loads, yet, the Handi, Ruger, Marlin and many others will accept MUCH heavier loads and many manuals PUBLISH 3 levels of 45-70 loadings.  Just wondering why the same isn't done for many other rounds.

They very well may accept much heavier loads...however...until the manufactures themselves openly acknowledge they will accept the legal responsibility for the actions of all hand loaders...There won't be as many as you want... The 45-70 is rather unique in this regard...A military BP cartridge converted to smokeless that has a multitude of rifles of the 3 levels still in service...this is why the 3 levels...for all of those antique rifles out there...and yes...for all those antique Handi-rifles out there...There are other published cartridges with multiple levels...The 223...and the 308...and the 30-06...come to mind...and all that you have to do is read the different manuals to see that these as military rounds are loaded differently vs the civilian rounds. The 223 & the 308 are of modern design and so too are the guns that were designed with them ...and the 30-06 as a military round is loaded a little different for the Garand..You of course know the military designations for them...

As to our Handi's...well...NEF says not to fire them in them...so...the point really isn't relevant...and most Handi-holics are well aware of this fact anyway...

Mac

[jgalar]

The total energy produced by a cartridge must be considered. Pressure is only part of the equation for the total energy per time value of a cartridge. The total surface area of the case is also important as this is how much of the energy load is distributed. How the energy is built and reduced over time is also an important factor. Not to mention the actual amount of powder burned.

A 50 caliber Browning has about the same pressure as many sporting rounds, but the guns have to be built to withstand the total energy/time.
There are low pressure cartridge guns that are built like artillery pieces that kick the snot out of you and there are light weight rifles that shoot high pressure rounds with hardly a nudge to your shoulder.

[handirifle]

Mac
Good points indeed.  And as I reflected, you are correct, I guess there never really IS two identical firearms.  Minute differences in chamber/barrel dimentions can alter pressure considerably.  However, I never have felt nor will I that factory data is to be ignored, quite the contrary.  But I have also always been one to see something and ask, "Why is that?", it's what makes me tick.  In the end I become a much more educated reloader and a safer one.  I really think it's something we all need to ask.  I'd venture to guess even the factories do so, if not, why ever bother updating manuals at all?  They know powders change and components change, so they too are asking "why".

In over 35 years of reloading, I can only recall one cartridge I have loaded past any puiblished loads, and that was not just pulled out of my heiny.  It was pulled from experienced reloaders and their data.  I have not and will not ever mention what caliber or load it is on a public forum.  Any other data I have that IS from published data, I always gladly share with others here and elsewhere.

I spoke at length on the phone with a rep from Hodgdons about data on the 375 Winchester, about 2 years ago.  I had noticed THEIR OWN data from the 2004 Annual manual showed considerably heavier loads and higher velocities than the 2000 hardbound manual.  I wanted to know why.

Their answer, was because they started using pressure test barrels instead of "looking" for pressure signs like the rest of us do.  This ended up being a net INCREASE of nearly 200fps.  All I'm saying is I never think it hurts to question and wonder why things are the way they are.

Some rules can and are hard and fast, don't overcharge, don't swap components without re-working the load, but others are more flexible.  Overall cartridge length is one.  That alone can have a great influence on pressure, so can bullet design.  the Barnes "X" bullet, vs the Barnes TSX is a fine example.

You yourself experiment with loads in the Handi, and I suspect have "pushed the envelope" a bit, as well all are inclined to do.  That is another form of Why, it's called What IF.

Tim, is testing his Handi in 300WM, that too is pushing the envelope, testing AI rounds is another.  I am far from being alone in this quest, I'm just more open in my comments and musings.

[Mac11700]

There are several reasons you are over looking here...I'll start with the last first...

Quick isn't pushing any envelope with the cartridge..He isn't stressing the action by using the cartridge to it's fullest potential...on the contrary..he is using loading data given to me to specifically stay within the pressure tolerances of the rifle. While this may not be a factory approved cartridge for the Handi...just as my 338-06 A-square..or his 405 Winchester...and quite a few others...They are used in a manner that is as safe as they can be with the information we have been given by various companies...

Yes...I have pushed the envelope...on several cartridges...in several different actions...and am none the worse for it...Do I think everyone should do this...absolutely not...Nor do I want them coming on here and posting that it is perfectly safe to do so...because of the problems that can result from it if they did...

 A cartridge is submitted for SAMMI approval with a set of criteria that has to be met...Velocity goals..pressure goals...safety in the action they are submitting it with...All of these goals are set by the rifle/ammo company...not SAMMI...

The Handi rifle has been around for quite some time...and has been made in 45-70 for quite some time...Some of the earlier frames are only meant for the low pressure trapdoor loads...and even some of the newer frames are the same...Yup...there are 3 load levels that some of the powder company puts out...namely because of the vast amount of different rifles chambered for it...The 280 has been out for some time in the Handi's as well...H&R put them out...but...unfortunately...they put them out on a weaker frame than what we have today in the new SB-2 design...and that the manufacturing process used in those frames was better than then shotgun frame then...or what is used now in the sb-1 frames...it still isn't nearly as strong...This is why folks start assuming they can swap high pressure barrels to these older frames...They shouldn't...a call to the factory will verify this...Also...there are legal ramifications to contend with...which is why most manufactures won't honor their legal responsibilities when hand loading has been involved and there has been an incident of some kind...NEF states this plainly what they will be responsible for...as does most others...

Many rifle manufactures won't tell you everything you want to know about their products ...trade secretes and all of that...So...this is why folks start assuming things...some good...some bad...and we all know what can happen when we start making assumptions...the problem here with doing this with re-loading...we not only can make an *** out of ourselves...but we can get injured or worse...That leaves folks like us in a quandary...trying to make sense out of all of it...It isn't easy...that's for sure...Which is why I have always stressed to follow known verified data and to follow safe re-loading techniques.It is also why we here get bent out of shape when folks start posting erroneous data or promoting unsafe ideas...We don't want anyone to get hurt from something they have read here........People need to get into the habit of calling  the companies when in doubt... like changing components...I do this all the time to be safe...everyone else should as well...A phone call is cheap insurance when it comes to reloading...and it's better to get it from them...then getting bad information off of the web.

Mac

[quickdtoo]

I chose the .280Imp since the Nosler 5th has data for it and now even Hodgdon has it listed on their new web site.

The .300WSM is just a test of my underlug improvement since it was set back when I got it.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,110568.0.html

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,113510.msg1098355960.html#msg1098355960

.... my working with the .300WSM barrel has nothing to do with testing frame strength of a modern SB2 frame, but testing the underlug improvement to pressure and bolt thrust equal to that of the a .30-06Ackley  with no underlug setback. I have no intentions of pushing it to factory .300WSM velocities, there is no way that I would recommend that or do it myself!

Tim

[handirifle]

It seems like this is detouring from where I intended it to go.  I was mearly speculating and wondering I never had ANY intention of pointing out individuals or their habits,  Sorry Mac and Quick for doing so, I LET myself be detoured.

Icannot seem to make the thoughts in my head come across clear on this thread, so at the risk of hitting a nerve and pissing off someone unintentionally, I'll stop here.

I have too many "online" friends here to risk that over just a thought.  The responses are way off track from where I wanted to go in the beginning and that was what I was afraid of.  No, they are NOT oposing opinions, they are just not where I thought I wanted this to go.

Sorry for stirring up a pot.

[quickdtoo]

Handi, I didn't take offense at your statement about my work with the .300 WSM and .280 Improved, I just wanted everyone to know that I'm using published data for both that keep pressures within those that work in a Handi. Even those pressures listed for the .280AI on the Hodgdon site exceed(62.3kpsi) the SAAMI pressure limit of 60kpsi for the .280 Rem, which btw, has been dropped from the 2007 Annual!!

I compared the loads I've been working with from the Nosler 5th for the .280AI to those on the new Hodgdon site, the difference leaves me scratching my head somewhat and makes it all that more important that we use safe reloading practices even with published data!!

Tim

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

[safetysheriff]

Handi'

please be patient with me now:   at www.findarticles.com if you type in ".44 magnum heavy loads" you'll get a John Taffin article as one of the offerings.   it tells about Elmer Keith's seriously mis-guided experiment with .458" diameter bullets (intended for the .45-90 caliber cartridge of larger diameter!) ........... loaded into a .45 Colt revolver, seemingly over black powder that had been crushed "into a finer grain size" .    this is the  story telling how Keith could have killed himself.    this relates to some people's cavalier approach, i believe, toward their safety and toward a relatively compulsive (foolish) search for things that exceed common sense.    it shows how a little bit of knowledge can be a dangerous thing for a shooter/handloader.

quite the opposite, John Linebaugh's hotrodding of the .45 Colt, made with modern brass -- not the earlier "balloon-head" type, in a properly-toleranced/tight-fitting/5-shot revolver, using proper propellants, allowed him to achieve phenomenal performance with a seemingly-obsolete piece of yesteryear's ballistics.     BUT, he did it all with his down-to-earth approach of thinking through the many variables, and carefully experimenting with his developments.    you can best learn about that at www.customsixguns.com/writings/writings.htm      go to the one about the .45 Colt and you'll see how he views the revolver as perhaps a machine, and how he views the brass case as a gasket that makes it work.   

i am glad Elmer helped to give us the .44 mag'!   but he was apparently a pretty foolish man the day he blew up the .45 Colt.    i'm glad John Linebaugh has given us his cartridges and insights into the .45 Colt's potential.    but i think John Linebaugh understates the potential of the .44 while energetically doting on the somewhat larger .45 bore.   i think that's why Randy Garrett is satisfied with selling .44 mag' loads instead of .45's.   Randy seems to know that there's truth to the dangers of hot-rodding .45 Long-Colts in many of the firearms out there.    Randy knows that he can develop, produce, and label his products for appropriate application in certain firearms and cover himself thereby.    BUT........Randy is satisfied to work with what the laws of God and His physics will allow us.    that, my friend Handi', is what this is all about!    some of us will (un)knowingly transgress the laws of physics that our Creator has laid out before us.....and we will pay the price.   SAAMI, and others, are trying to prevent our suffering and our demise!

i really ran my mouth on that one!    and you already knew much of that anyway!

ss'   

[handirifle]

Tim,
Thanks I'm glad to hear it, cause it wasn't meant to use you as a bad example , just another wonder "why" or "what if".  I must say I'm glad yo hear about your load levels, not sure if you caught the suprise in my posts before about you using the 300 in the handi.  Thought maybe you were getting a prt time job with NEF

SS,
You were true to your name with that post, and safety is never really overstated.  I'm always careful but I'm human and can and do make mistakes, and reminders are never a bad thing.  Some people have an overbearing tone and attitude in reminding others and that does turn me off.

Not sure if I've mentioned it on this forum before but I am and Air Traffic Controller by profession (almoset 25yrs now) and safety is a paramount thought on my mind most of the time, most likely about as mush as yours in your profession, but for differing reasons.  Like I told the father of one of my daughters friends (he was a deputy) when he made the comment about my job being as stressful as his, I said, "yea, but if I piss off a pilot, most likely he won't try to shoot me."  After a seconds thought, he said, "You've got a point there".  Like i said, for different reasons.

Back to guns, I never really knew ole elmer almost did himself in , but can honestly say I'm not suprised.  I read a book called "40 Years with the 45-70" by a famous gun guy (his name escapes me) and I was shocked at some of the loads he used.  He wasn't too far away from the OLD 458 Mag loads.

It's that in my job, I've learned to question most EVERYTHING that comes down the pike, because we have to make sure everything has been thought out and completely tested.  That way when I teach it to someone new, I can not only teach the what, but the why also.  I do the same thing with guns.

I don't distrust the manuals or the factories, and I surely don't subscribe to any conspiracy theory about lowering the loads.  I do understand lawyers control a lot of things as do insurance companies, and they are someone the gun industries have to listen to.  But when they publish data for cartridges of old and place them in the actions of new I still will have to wonder.

There used to be the philosophy of "no replacement for displacement", like the car engines, but engines and cartridges are smaller and higher performance than their older siblings and are still packaged in the same guns as before.  Obviously the GUN is capable of more, what about the old cases.  I SUPPOSE THAT ROUNDS LIKE THE HORNADY "Light Mags" are pretty much along the lines of what I'm thinking of.  Based on only the comments I've read from those that have used them, I'd venture a guess they are loaded to a bit higher pressures than std factory fodder.  Several users I know have had extraction issues with them, in Handis and bolt guns, even when they have run top level reloads from the same guns before.

[Mac11700]

Handi:

The Hornady stuff has been using a proprietary powder since it come out...just as all of their new loads will use...Same for what Federal is using in their Fusion ammo..It impossible to match their loads and stay within normal pressures with what we can buy...

The old cases...like the 30-06 is a very good example..Loaded long...you can easily add more powder to them and raise them up to modern standards...and then some with certain powders...but then without any pressure testing equipment...your flying by the seat of your pants in a massive CB... ...This is the reason I'm going to be spending a tidy sum to get some good equipment...I'm tired of not truly knowing too...

All part of taking my hand loading to a new level I suppose...but I think it will help me along the way...and at least I hope to answer a few of my own questions in the process...

Mac

[trotterlg]

Just for the record:  Has anyone, in the known universe, in the time of existance of NEF or H&R, ever failed a Handi rifle frame/action, or seen documentationed proof of any failure?  How about rumors of a failure  around a camp fire after a few drinks?  Please post pictures and details.  Larry

[quickdtoo]

Henry1's .243 is about as close to a failure as I've seen reported here.

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,113601.msg1098356635.html#msg1098356635

[xhare]

Handirifle,

Your conversations about the 375 Winchester are interesting.  I have made the opposite discovery about the 303 British.  I am operating totally on memory here so bare with me.  I have an older Hodgdon Manual that I purchased around 1992-1993.  I have used it for years for reloading my 303.  Well one day I pick up a Hodgdon annual manual (off a magazine rack) and eventually find myself thumbing through it looking at the data.  I decided to compare some data between my various manuals.  I found that my favorite powder in the 303 had its maximum charge reduced.  In looking further, I realized that the NEW MAXIMUM charge is 2 grains LESS the the previous STARTING LOAD.  How could they have been so far off?  Further, other powders changed little or not at all. 

I understand some changes due to pressure reading methods or minor changes in powder formulas and such but wow.  That means the starting loads were apparently well over maximum, and the near maximum charges I had been using were off the chart.  Of course I have never noticed signs of high pressure.  The 303 chambers are cut with added headspace supposedly to handle dirty and corroded ammo anyway, so they tend to stretch even with light loads.  Even with my loads I could reload the brass several times and I have never had a case head seperate.  Those of you who reload for 303's especially the SMLE versions know what I am talking about.

[Mac11700]

Just for the record:  Has anyone, in the known universe, in the time of existance of NEF or H&R, ever failed a Handi rifle frame/action, or seen documentationed proof of any failure?  How about rumors of a failure  around a camp fire after a few drinks?  Please post pictures and details.  Larry

I've heard of a few...but no documented evidence to post. Things you hear from the factory over the years normally can't be proved either...cause they aren't allowed to disclose that information for public knowledge...and in most cases neither is anyone who has brought suit against H&R under terms of non-discloser agreements.

Mac