.45 vs. .44 question

[.44splx2]

Good morning all,
Any strong arguements regarding effectiveness
of either? How about accuracy? Yes, I'm Blackhawk shopping.

[Redhawk1]

Of course I am going to go with the 45 Colt. Because I like the 45 caliber. There are others that will tell you to go with the 44 Mag because it is more versatile with factory loads. I went with the 45 Colt because I reload and it is not a factor for me. I can load the 45 Colt up to the 44 Mag levels. Accuracy is not an issue ether, I found my 45 Colts to shoot extremely accurate. So it is just a matter of personal preference in my opinion. 

[Castaway]

I'm a 45 fan and also reload to bring out the potential of that grand old cartridge.  You can effectively match any 44 load with less pressure and make a bigger hole to boot.  On the other hand, if you don't reload the 44 is the way to go unless you are quite well of financially and can afford $40 or so for a box of 45 Colt +P cartridges.

[.44splx2]

I appreciate the info. I know its an old discussion.
I've shot .44 for a while, however I'm setting up my reloading "lab"
so just gathering more info. I'm selling a DA revo. to buy a Blackhawk
or two-7.5"Bisley and 4 5/8" with Bisley grip-frame kit. I know the .44
but like the "big hole" approach!

[Ahab]

In my experiance I believe the the .44 has a slight edge in the accuracy department, especially at 100yrds or more. I have seen extraction problems occur when people load .45Colts to + levels and the accuracy decrease. Thus, if you want big bore bang and the ability to shoot milder loads, go with the .454 Casull. I did on the advice of Redhawk1. I still prefer the .44 for long range over the .45Colt.

[Lloyd Smale]

the .45 is no different then the 44. If you load either to excessive pressures cases will stick if anything the .44 with its smaller case will be a little more sensitive to pressure at the top end of the load spectrum. Bottom line is there very close. The 45 will push a slightly heavier bullet to the same velocity with a tad less pressure. Accuracy has nothing to do with which round it is. Its a matter of the tolerances the gun is built to and the design of the bullet and loading techniques. Some of the finest long range shooting ive withnessed has been with 45 colts. For a handloader its a toss up as what one will do so will the other. For the non handloader the .44 has a definate advantage. Either one will push a 300 to 1300 fps easily in a large framed ruger or a ruger redhawk and any more then that is about a waste anyway as that load will take any game aniimal inthe US.

[corbanzo]

I would say go with the .44 mag, just cause I like the .44 mag better.  That's about it  

As lloyd said, if you reload, you don't need worry about the differences in the cartrdges.  .01 isn't much of a difference in hole size. 

[Redhawk1]

44 Mag = .429
45 Colt = .451

Difference =0.022

Not much but there is a difference. 

[corbanzo]

Lets see if I can find my calipers here....


.429/.451= 95.121951219512195121%   

I don't think a deer/bear/rabbit is gonna think, man that would of hurt a lot more if that there 4.82% was there.....  hahaha

[Lone Star]

When you consider that the .45 displaces over 10% more tissue there is a difference, particularly with non-expanding bullets.  How much difference on game - IMO bullet design has more influence than a 5% difference in diameter.

On the other end, the .45 stresses any firearm more  at equal pressures than a .44 does - it has to, the physics cannot be ignored.  The thrust on the breech is 10% more, the radial stress is 5% more.  That is one reason some firearms that are safe with .44 Magnum loads cannot take equal-pressured .45 loads.  Some shooters seem to think they can - but they ignore the physics.  Firearms designers do not.


.

[Bullseye]

44 would be my choice.  I never found those great accuracy loads with my hot 45's plus I always had poor case life.  I still own a 45, but I do not put hot loads through it.

[Castaway]

The pressure problem comes in to play if loading to the same pressure.  The 45 Colt can get virtually the same velocity as the 44 mag at roughly 80% of the pressure with the same weight bullet.

[Lloyd Smale]

breach thrust is something that is allways overlooked. If you got back and read why when ruger and elmer were fooling with the first 44s you will find that they tried them on the small framed ruger 3 screws and its not the cylinders that let go it was the frames. One thing to keep in mind though when using it as an arguement in the case of the .45vs44 arguement is both frames are the same and they are proofed at twice the pressures your every going to run in a handgun so the chances of catastrophic failures are pretty slim. But dont rule it out as investment casted guns can have hidden flaws and you still can ruin a good gun by putting a steady diet of real big loads in it. When i was young and dumb i shot a 45 vaquero loose using loads i wont publish here. Bottom line is when you look at the logical side of this a cast bullet does its best work at max velocity of about 1300 fps and either will push equal weight bullets to that level with a safety margin. I personaly think the 45 might have a slight advantage in hitting power using my results in the field but i sure couldnt document it and there certianly isnt an animal anywhere that is going to die from a hit with the 45 that wouldnt have died within one step of where he would have with the 44.  Bottom line is that its like comparing the 243 to the 6mm rem or the 270 to the 280. It makes for entertaining reading but its about like looking at the wrigley spearmint twins and saying ones cuter then the other.

When you consider that the .45 displaces over 10% more tissue there is a difference, particularly with non-expanding bullets.  How much difference on game - IMO bullet design has more influence than a 5% difference in diameter.

On the other end, the .45 stresses any firearm more  at equal pressures than a .44 does - it has to, the physics cannot be ignored.  The thrust on the breech is 10% more, the radial stress is 5% more.  That is one reason some firearms that are safe with .44 Magnum loads cannot take equal-pressured .45 loads.  Some shooters seem to think they can - but they ignore the physics.  Firearms designers do not.


.

[rickyp]

I would get the 45 colt ove rthe 44 mag. I love the 45 colt it is one of the best hunting rounds made (when loaded right) recoil is very managable not as bad as the 44 mag. i have shot many many thousands of 45 colt rounds from my old colt anaconada and contender /encore barrels I ahve also shot a thousand or sp 44 mag from my contender.

with the 45 you can down load it to be very mild or you can hot rod it a bit and do anything the 44 mag cna do and more I ahve enen shot very light round ball loads out of my 45 colt for small game

[Gregory]

Lets see if I can find my calipers here....


.429/.451= 95.121951219512195121%   

I don't think a deer/bear/rabbit is gonna think, man that would of hurt a lot more if that there 4.82% was there.....  hahaha

I'm not a 45 Colt fan, I like the 44, but to be fair you need to compare cross sectional area of the two:
0.429   0.144603643   
0.451   0.159815071   90.48%

So you gain almost 10% with a 45.

[Tom W.]

My sizing dies are .430 and .452
 

[ihuntbucks]

Buy both and issue is settled .......Rick

[Castaway]

Another issue that hasn't been stated is felt recoil.  Physics tells us that the same weight bullet fired at the same velocity (less powder charge diffference) will recoil the same.  There is a big difference in felt recoil though.  The 44 is more snappy and to me is less pleasant to shoot with full house loads.

[Racer X]

[/i]
On the other end, the .45 stresses any firearm more  at equal pressures than a .44 does - it has to, the physics cannot be ignored.  The thrust on the breech is 10% more, the radial stress is 5% more.  That is one reason some firearms that are safe with .44 Magnum loads cannot take equal-pressured .45 loads.  Some shooters seem to think they can - but they ignore the physics.  Firearms designers do not.

At their top ends, 44s and 45s do not operate at the same pressures. Look at some of the Hodgens data for top end loads of comparable weight bullets, especially those over 300 grains. A 45 Colt achieves better than 90% of the velocity of a 44 Mag with about 1/3 less pressure.

[Lloyd Smale]

racerx what your not taking into consideration is bolt thrust. A large caliber round will create more bolt thrust then a smaller caliber. Chamber pressure is what makes a gun explode but bolt thrust is what will shake a gun loose. Look back to when Elmer and Ruger experimented with the first 44s they did it on a small framed ruger and it wasnt the cylinders that let loose it was the frame that failed. Now a .357 and a 44 mag have about the same chamber pressures but the bolt thrust on the .44 was alot more and cracked the frames. As to the guys that preach recoil is less in the 45 colt. I shoot a ton of heavys in both the 44 and 45 and if you blindfolded me i coulnt tell you which one i was shooting. I shot a ruger vaquero to the point it shook like a rattle and took some serious money to fix. I was a 45 and i was shooting loads that i wont print here but pressures were in the upper end of what a 44 mag is loaded to. Granted i was getting velocitys higher then the 44 would have but running those same pressures in a 44 the gun probably would have still been as tight as new.

[EdK]

The increase in cross-sectional area going from .430" to .452" is actually 10.5%. That is very significant. By the way the increase from 41 mag to 44 mag is 10.0% as well as 45 to 475 being 10.4% - interesting!

There is no inherent accuracy difference between any of these straightwalls: it is all in gun tolerance, twist rate, bullet design, powder charge, etc.

[safetysheriff]

j.d. jones wrote an article in the July, 2001 American Handgunner magazine re: "The Eight Great Truths About Terminal Ballistics".   jones states that the differences in diameter and velocities between revolvers chambered in .44 to .50 caliber is minimal whether speaking about an animal's reaction or an examination of an animal's wound.  however, one of his eight ballistic truths deals with the differences between cast and jacketed bullets and the way velocity affects performance of jacketed bullets more than that of cast. 

i found that article at www.findarticles.com a couple years ago.

based on what i've seen from both paco kelly's writings formerly on one of the revolver websites, and the articles on john linebaugh's website i chose the .44 mag'.    i don't have problems with brass.......so far......with the mag'.    even when pushing it in my rugers.    linebaughs success with the .45 colt comes in revolvers that are tightly chambered for such hotrodding adventures.   i don't buy custom or semi-custom revolvers because of my financial goals.   

j.d. jones wrote in his book with larry kelly, "Hunting for Handgunners" that his 320 gr' hardcast lead bullet (from molds he used to sell) would leave a 7.5" barrel'd handgun at around 1400 fps'......with safe pressure.    it has been used to kill elephant.   

http://date.date.hodgon.com allows you to examine .45 colt loads in Rugers, Freedom Arms, and T/C's that reach up to 1266 fps with bullets of 300  to 325 grains in hardcast lead.   

i'll take the flatter shooting .44 mag' and the greater load densities that i can achieve with it at safe pressure limits for Very Good Accuracy.

just my two cents,

ss' 

[Lloyd Smale]

Where the added caliber helps in hunting is with large game. Ive shot deer with the 44 and with the 500 linebaugh and never seen any differnce in reaction to game being hit by either. Now keep in mind im talking cast bullets (is there any other kind) Where the 45 has an advantage over the 44 and the 475 has one over the 45 ect. Is the ablity to shoot a heavier bullet with the same sectional density as the smaller one. What this will give you is penetration. Its not even an arguable point that a 400 grain bullet out of a 475 at 1300 fps wont outpenetrate a 300 out of a 44. The extra meplat means a slightly bigger wound channel to boot. An 475 lfn will have a bigger metplat then a 300 wfn 45 or at least as big and in my opinion if i want or feel i need a bigger metplat id much rather step up to a bigger caliber and shoot an lfn then shoot a wfn in a smaller caliber. Why you ask. Because in my experience wfns are tougher to get to shoot well then swcs or lfns are even at short range and at long range the wfns are for the most part a joke. Now that doesnt translate into the hunting field as most wfns will shoot well enough out to 100 yards with some load developent to hunt about anything. But i dont just hunt with my handguns i do alot of long range shooting too. Plus like i said i usually have better luck even at short range with lfns and swcs. So when is using something bigger then a 44 with a 300 needed. Probably never. When would i step up to a bigger gun id say shooting at game bigger then 500 lbs that is large boned. Why is it needed because people dont allways take a perfect shot (at least not me) and animals dont allways present a perfect shot. Now before you jump on me about wainting and having patients. Im here to tell you that not one man in a hundred is going to pass on a record book animal not even a whitetail because the shot isnt perfect and just last year i was tracking a deer that my nephew wounded and took a shot at it running away from me and put the bullet just about right up its but and it came out its chest and dropped it in its tracks. What was i using. A 500 linebaugh. Was it nessisary? probably not but its what i had in the holster and it sure didnt feel like to much gun to me at that point.  Alot of this arguing about what caliber is the best is silly. IF it works for you use it and i will do the same.

[safetysheriff]

Where the added caliber helps in hunting is with large game. Ive shot deer with the 44 and with the 500 linebaugh and never seen any differnce in reaction to game being hit by either. Now keep in mind im talking cast bullets (is there any other kind) Where the 45 has an advantage over the 44 and the 475 has one over the 45 ect. Is the ablity to shoot a heavier bullet with the same sectional density as the smaller one. What this will give you is penetration. Its not even an arguable point that a 400 grain bullet out of a 475 at 1300 fps wont outpenetrate a 300 out of a 44.


  Alot of this arguing about what caliber is the best is silly. IF it works for you use it and i will do the same.

Lloyd'

FWIW: i'd say that you wrote a very good post above.     i don't see anything with what i left from your posting that i'd take exception to.   i think that i will probably always be a .44 mag' fan; but that the .45-caliber in the .454 Casull would be more to my liking if hunting Brown Bear and other 'seriously dangerous' game like Cape Buffalo or Elephant.   i just don't see the .45 Colt as that much of a hammer unless it's chambered in custom/semi-custom revolvers..... usually because the sectional density and velocities of the .44 loads are so potent compared to MOST of the .45 Colt loads.  (including handloads in Ruger revolvers of both calibers).   

a lot of the arguing can be silly!

take care,

ss'   

[Lone Star]

j.d. jones wrote an article in the July, 2001 American Handgunner magazine re: "The Eight Great Truths About Terminal Ballistics".   jones states that the differences in diameter and velocities between revolvers chambered in .44 to .50 caliber is minimal whether speaking about an animal's reaction or an examination of an animal's wound....

One can always fond some "expert" to back his side of any gun argument.  Writer and handgun expert Ross Seyfried has repeatedly stated the there is a notable difference in large game performance between the .44 and the .45.   Both he and Jones have taken a lot of large game too.  What does this all mean?   Simply that "experts" cannot always agree.  This happens all the time - take Global Warming as an example....

Personally I prefer the .45LC, but I would never argue that someone armed with a .44 Magnum is undergunned compared to me.  And those who like the big .475s and .50s - more power to them....as long as they don't tell me my choice won't work. 


.

[Racer X]

racerx what your not taking into consideration is bolt thrust. A large caliber round will create more bolt thrust then a smaller caliber. Chamber pressure is what makes a gun explode but bolt thrust is what will shake a gun loose.

Lloyd, I understand chamber pressure, but would you please explain bolt thrust is? Thanks.

[Lloyd Smale]

bolt thrust is the pressure applied to the rear of the frame by the casehead when you fire. The bigger the case the more bolt thrust comes in to play. racer x i too seem to notice a slightly different effect when a similar 45 hits an animal then a 44 and certainly more then a .41. Again im talking cast bullet loads. Bottom line is though that it may make the difference in an animal taking 3 leaps after being shot and 4 or 5. But properly hit by any of them you have a dead animal. Ross Seyfried and jd jones have both probably take more game animals in one year with a handgun then most of us have in our lifetimes. So when guys like that talk i keep my ears open. Like I said what this comes down to for the most part is a very simular comparison to the one made by fans of the 270 and the 06. No doubt the 06 is slightly more powerful and can handle bigger bullets. But used on animals that they are the right gun for theres very little difference in actual field results. What one will kill so will the other.

[EdK]

Perhaps back thrust or case head thrust being more generic terms are less confusing when speaking within the context of revolvers (never heard of recoil shield thrust). Of course you could have bolt thrust with a XP-100 pistol!

[Castaway]

I think the bottom line is both are grand cartridges and in practical terms, neither has an edge over the other.  It  comes down to a Ford and Chevy argument.  On the other hand, I just did my calculations; the 45 has less less bolt thrust than does the 44 when loaded to pressures of 32K and 38K PSI respectively.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess my use of the term bolt thrust is inaccurate. It is like was said more like case thrust. It is the case acting as it does in a bolt rifle against the face of the frame as a sixgun doesnt have a bolt to hold back the thrust. This is why custom gun manufactures will preach to keep the front and rear contact areas of the cylinder lubed because if you dont you will beat the surfaces metal to metal and eventually cause slop in your gun