Author Topic: 40 wehlen (Read 2123 times)

Archie · « **on:** May 15, 2003, 03:17:26 PM »

Has anyone heard of the 40 wehlen, it was mentioned in a book about bolt action rifles. Do you know about what bullet weigh and velocity can you expect. Any sources of reloading data.

Thanks

Nobade · « **Reply #1 on:** May 15, 2003, 04:16:41 PM »

Yep, it exists. It doesn't work very well as a dangerous game rifle due to the almost nonexistant shoulder. It should (if I remember rightly) throw a 400gr. bullet at around 2200 fps. A much more successful version is made by Fred Zeglin at Z-Hat. Don't remember its name but it is on his web site. He's also making a 416 on the Ultramag case that looks a whole lot more useful and cheaper to have built, on a Rem Ultramag action. Rigby power + in something that will feed and not cost a mint!

grendel · « **Reply #2 on:** May 15, 2003, 08:36:11 PM »

"Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges"by Wolf Publishing has an article on the .400 Brown Whelen it. In this case the author (John Kronfeld) did not find any problem with headspace in an older Ruger M77 (not a controlled feed version) and seems to have concluded that (my words not his) in a properly chambered and loaded .400 Brown Whelen headspaceing is not a problem. YMMV.

Results 300g Barnes Spitzers at 2370fps and 400 Barnes RN at 2200fps (best loads. 22" barrel.

Not a bad little gun. Good cruncher and a M98 / M77 / M70 M700 etc that is chambered for the 30-06 can be converted. With the added advantage of having one or two more rounds in the chamber then a standard belted mag.

Example my .35 Brown Whelen drives a 250 Sierra at 2600fps from a 20.5" and holds one up the spout and at least 5 in the mag. Not many .338 Win/Whby mags will do that.
--
Grendel

"Government is not reason. Government is not eloquence. It is force.
And, like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master!" --
George Washington

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #3 on:** May 18, 2003, 10:13:29 AM »

The problem with the 400 Whelen's shoulder is much exaggerated, it came from improper reamer specs. With a proper chamber, there does not seem to be a headspace problem. The Brown-Whelen and the 411 Hawk (Zeglin's version) have minimal taper and the shoulder is moved forward a bit, both are considered "improved" versions of the Whelen and do offer a bit more velocity and more shoulder. While it may be possible to get 2200 fps from either the BW or Hawk versions, it will be done so only at the cost of a long barrel or high pressures. 2000 fps with a 400 grain bullet is pushing into the 60,000 psi pressure range from a 24" barrel out of the Hawk.

Another problem with using heavy bullets in the 411 diameter, is the lack of availability, there are only one or two firms that are making 400 grain hunting bullets in the 411 right now. Woodleigh is one that I know of. Barnes, Swift and a few others were but have discontinued the heavies (Swift canceled their entire line of 411 cal bullets). Barnes is making a 325 grain X right now, but I believe that is as heavy as they are going (it was designed for the demand of bullets for the 405 Winchester). North Fork is still in development stage with a 360 grain bullet, and it is designed for Zeglin's 411 Hawk and should be an outstanding bullet for everything. Hawk is still making several different bullet weights in the 411 cal, and will make just about anything requested.

I had expected with the advent of the new 400 H&H Magnum and offering of the 405 Winchester by Winchester and Ruger that more bullet makers would have started supplying bullets in this caliber, but it seems to have exactly the opposite, Barnes trimmed down their offerings in the X (they used to offer 400 grain, 350 grain, 325 and 300 grain X's in 411), Swift canceled their line. It is good to hear about North Fork's addition and I'm sure Woodleigh will continue their offering because of the British rounds based on that diameter. All these are considered premium bullets are rather expensive when compared to Winchester PowerPoints or Remington Core-Lokts.

I know you can get properly headstamped brass from Zeglin's shop (Z-hat) that are made by Quality Cartridge for the 411 Hawk, but it is cylinder brass and has to be sized down for loading. This is a big benefit of the Hawk if you plan on hunting countries where they check to make sure your ammunition matches the rifle.

I don't mean to scare you away from a 40 cal based on the 30/06 case, but there are considerations you need to be aware of.

You aren't going to get 416 Rigby ballistics from one, unless you drive the pressure out of the stratosphere, there is nothing magic about them. If you are looking for Rigby velocity, energy and pressures, get a Rigby.

The 400 H&H is very promising and specs are available for it, I'm not sure if anyone has a reamer for it yet. If you are looking for 2300-2400 fps from a bolt gun with a 24" barrel with 400 grain bullets at reasonable pressures in the 40 cal, this is the way to go. Brass can be sized from 375 H&H brass which seems to be cheaper than the Rigby brass, but you still run into the bullets being expensive.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2003, 10:07:44 PM »

Fred Zeglin at Z-hat has a few good articles on the 40 caliber 30-06 based cartridges.

This one addresses the 400 Whelen's supposed shoulder problems http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm It was written by Michael Petrov.

Here's the page for the 411 Hawk (kinda like an improved 400 Whelen improved). http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

Archie · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2003, 03:08:24 PM »

Thanks for the information. I am looking to put together a rifle from M98 action. Something thats big enough for cape buffalo, if I ever make it to africa, but small enough case to get some accurate reduced load for hunting in the states. How much would you expect to pay to get a barrel chamber and fit to an action and sights added.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2003, 06:23:20 AM »

Archie,
My personal take on the 400 Whelen or any of it's "improvements" for Africa is not that good. Reason being the already high pressures you would need to load to for the 400 grain bullets to get the velocity desired is going to be exaggerated somewhat by the heat of Africa. Also, the chambers for these rounds has to be cut very precise for those shoulders to work (hence the original problems with the 400 Whelen - bad chambers), get some dust and grit in there and you may have problems chambering another round. For hunting in dry and dusty conditions, especially hunting something dangerous, I'd prefer a little slop, so to speak. Shooting in 40 degree weather is one thing at 60,000 psi, move that temperature to 110-115 degrees and you'll have extraction problems at some point.

You might consider the new 400 H&H Mag, if your heart is set on a 40 caliber, it could be loaded down to 405 Winchester velocities for whitetail work or up to its design standard with low pressures. The old british round of the 450/400 would do the same.

If you aren't just itching for a 40, why not a 375 H&H or a 9.3x62? Could always go with a 458 Winchester or Lott and load down to 45/70 levels for whitetails.

Just my personal preference, but I'd look elsewhere for a Cape Buffalo cartridge. If you do go with the Whelen or its variants, I'd contact McGowen Rifles or Z-Hat for the work. Both are very familiar with that line of cartridges and understand what the idiosyncrasies are. I don't know what the cost would be, but assuming you could pick up a Mauser or Winchester or Ruger action for $300 bucks, a Douglas barrel for 250, probably another 150 or so for chamber cutting and attaching the barrel, then there is the cost for sights, lapping the lugs, bluing, opening up the forearm for the new barrel contour, etc... I don't think there is enough metal in a hunting weight contoured barrel to bore out to a 411 diameter.

It might be cheaper to buy a current production or used 375 H&H Winchester CRF and have it bored out for the 400 H&H. I don't know if there is enough barrel there for that, though.

Paul H · « **Reply #7 on:** May 28, 2003, 06:35:10 AM »

The smallest round I'd bother with for a DGR rifle is the 416 Taylor aka 416X338 win mag. It is a large enough case to get an honest 2300 fps with 400 gr bullets. The other advantage of the Taylor is dies and reamers are common and reasonably priced. You can even get a short chambered barrel from Midway for ~$100. You should also have no problems shooting reduced loads in it. I've made some reduced loads with my 500 Jeffrey, which is a massive case, and it works fine. Unique and 2400 are wonderful powders to launch pistol weight cast bullets 1200-1700 fps.

Nobade · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2003, 05:19:10 PM »

Thanks to you fellows who have educated me on the .400 Whelen! I read the article at Z-Hat, and sure enough he's right and Cartridges of the World has got it wrong. Funny how things like this persist! Anyway, I'm much better informed now. But I'd still go for the 400 H&H, don't have to work it as hard for the same effect.

Yukon Jack · « **Reply #9 on:** June 19, 2003, 08:55:44 PM »

NoBade,
To see a really nice 411 Hawk in a lever gun check out Beartooth's site.
http://www.shootersforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5609

Nobade · « **Reply #10 on:** June 22, 2003, 02:27:31 PM »

Wow, that is really nice!

talon · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2003, 10:16:18 AM »

Yukon Jack,
Just visiting from the Swaging Forum and read this thread as I wanted to learn about the .400 Whelen. I swage jacketed .411s in several jacket thicknesses and weights ( that's two of several of benefits of that field). With the nose die I have, I'm limited to a #3 spitzer design(S3), though. Of course, the tip can be soft nose, or all jacket to the end. There's quite a few swagers around and I bet there's plenty who make non-standard bullets, or those that are hard to get, or those that some folks consider 'special'. So maybe, for those of you in the 'wildcat crowd' who have been looking for jacketed bullets you haven't been able to find, it may be in your interest to drop by that Forum and ask a few questions.