Author Topic: .38 cast bullet for self defense (Read 4256 times)

BRL · « **on:** March 29, 2007, 04:47:30 PM »

I was reading a book about cast bullet weight/meplate and wound channel for hunting deer. After reading about heavy, slow moving projectiles with wide meplates causing devastating wound channels and quick kills, I was wondering about cast bullets for self defense. I carry a small S&W .38. Would a...say...160 grain, wide meplate load work for self defense on a human?

Thanks for any thoughts!

sherpa · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2007, 05:27:02 PM »

load a hollow base waddcutter backwards. good accuracy out to 25 yards.

dubber123 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2007, 12:50:28 AM »

The lawyers would have a field day. They'll say you purposely loaded "super deadly" ammo with the intention of shooting someone. I hate carrying factory loads because I don't trust hem, but I'm afraid of what a lawyer for some criminal might do to me in court if I ever had to use my handloads. I hate to say it, but you better stick to factory loads. Maybe find a supplier of factory stuff loaded with the bullet you choose.

ND Sharpshooter · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2007, 03:58:58 AM »

Another option is to load the wad cutters as they are intended to be loaded using a light powder charge so you can say you used light target loads because that's all you ever use in that revolver because it's your target shooting gun and you just happened to have it handy when the crap hit the fan. WC's have a lot of "stopping" power and won't go through half a dozen walls like some of the factory loads do. You can also buy loaded wad cutters to be on the safe side rather than reloading you own WC's.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2007, 04:40:15 AM »

a lead swc or full wadcutter loaded to +p levels is a good load for self defense. The old 38 police load was a swc. As to using reloads for self defense. There has never been an actual case of someone getting convicted for using handloads in a justifiable shooting. Just an urban legond. All of my self defense guns are loaded with handloads. Why because i can taylor them to a specific purpose and if i ever have to use them i know what they will do.

BRL · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2007, 05:32:22 AM »

Thanks for the replies.

I have always heard that too about defending yourself with handloads would bring legal trouble. I wondered how they would know. Would the officer on the scene ask you if you loaded your own ammo? I never understood that either. YOU ARE CARRYING A GUN. The intension is clear if someone attacks you. But, I suppose a criminal might be stupid enough to sue for being shot.

Thanks for the oppinons. I have really become interested in cast bullets recently. For all of my shooting/hunting, not just self defense.

ND Sharpshooter · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2007, 04:18:24 AM »

I don't believe that it's an urban legend at all. Mas Ayoob maintains that it is unwise at best to use your own reloads in your personal defense arms of any type. None of the major self defense scribes dispute his assertion. Me? I'll spring for a box of factory ammo per year and be set. Use reloads for practice and replace the factory ammo once per year by shooting up the old box for practice and replacing it.

Chuck White · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2007, 01:31:34 PM »

I would think that as long as you didn't load up "explosive" bullets like mercury filled or something of that sort, you'd be alright!

Personal defense to me, means close range, so a high degree of accuracy wouldn't be a concern and I'd use whatever ammo I had available. If I had them I'd use hollow-base wadcutters loaded backwards!

As long as you are not going looking for trouble you shouldn't have a problem as long as you are defending yourself or your family or your property!

jgalar · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2007, 03:32:07 AM »

I found a shooting mag in a desk at work and in it was an article by Mas Ayoob. He gave a couple of instances of court rulings about shooting with hand loaded ammo. So, I guess there is court precedence about hand loaded ammo. Personally I don't thin Ayoob's writings are worth a sh**

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2007, 04:07:53 PM »

I think the argument is the police cannot determine just how far away from the perp you were when the gun discharged unless a standard load is used so comparisons of powder burns, etc, can be used. If you say the guy was at arm's length and coming forward the DA can claim a super powerful load was used and the perp was actually much further away. And yes, this has been a problem for defendants but in fact it is not common as far as I can tell. Oh, and jgalar, could you reference some of your published work to we can compare it to Ayoob's?

jhalcott · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2007, 06:48:22 PM »

I Had a Md. state judge tell me he would throw the book at me IF I actually killed a perp. I am a" KNOWN shooter and should shoot to WOUND not kill".! His words. This jerk has been VERY lenient on KNOWN CRIMINALS his entire career,BUT thinks I would be wrong to save my life at the expense of one of HIS pets. I buy Glaser safety slugs because I have seen how many walls a 357 can penetrate. In Baltimore city there was a case of a store owner shooting at a robber with a 9mm auto .The bullet went thru the wall and hit some one in the next store. YES ,there was a trial,but NOT for the robber.

Mikey · « **Reply #11 on:** April 02, 2007, 12:52:12 AM »

jgalar and ND Sharpshooter: Ayoob opines, and that is all. He mentioned instances in that article but has consistently failed to provide the specifications of specific court cases to support his allegations. No court case has yet found an individual guilty of using handloads in a defensive shooting situation, period.

And you're right, ayoob's writings aren't worth much. Mikey.

Mikey · « **Reply #12 on:** April 02, 2007, 12:59:57 AM »

BRL: sorry, I got caught up with the last post. To answer your question - I would use a heavyweight semi-wadcutter. I would check out our sponsors list to see if there are any bullet makers there who commercially cast out a 200 gn swc, but I know of at least two bullet makers, Colorado Cast Bullets and Mt. Baldy Bullets that make a 200 gn hardcast semiwadcutter that I really like for use in the 38 and 357.

I use these slugs in my 38 loads - I load them over a Winchester factory powder load of 3.8 gns of WW231. These are standard pressure loads at 15.5K psi. They are accurate in my lightweight Bodyguard (j-frame) and shoot as easily as any other standard pressure load. HTH. Mikey.

cjensen · « **Reply #13 on:** April 02, 2007, 02:39:09 AM »

You might want to look into Veral Smith's OGIVAL WADCUTTERS.

From Veral's catalog,
"This wadcutter form was developed to allow stable flight at supersonic speeds, which isn’t possible with standard wadcutters. It makes an excellent target or light game bullet, with maximum accuracy range extended about 40 yards over full wadcutters, or about 90 yards. Because of the high velocity potential we offer it in gas checked as well as plainbase. Available diameters and weights are:"

32 caliber 312, 313, 314 diameters – 100 grains

38 caliber 375, 358, 359 diameters – 150 grains

41 caliber, 410, 411, 412 diameters – 200 grains

44 caliber, 430, 431, 432, diameters – 230 grains

45 caliber, 452, 453 diameters – 260 grains

BRL · « **Reply #14 on:** April 02, 2007, 05:54:56 PM »

Mikey & cjensen, thanks for the tips. A 200 gr. .38? Interesting. Thanks for the sources too!

MikeP · « **Reply #15 on:** April 03, 2007, 11:57:36 AM »

Mikey has a good idea.

The British stopped using their famously effective .455 Webley revolver round after WWI because, it was said, it kicked too much for soft-handed yeomen. They replaced it with a Webley 200-grain roundnose .38 caliber round, the .38/200, which was basically a heavyweight bullet in the low-velocity .38 S&W cartridge but was said to be as effective in knockdown power as the old .455. The velocity of this round was only about 600 fps out of the old Webley revolver, but later it was feared the soft lead bullet wouldn't meet some war convention stipulation against dum-dum expanding bullets, so they started issuing a lighter full-metal-jacket bullet.

For years in this country, the .38 Special / 200-grain lead bullet was considered an effective police load, until guns were expected to shoot through car bodies instead of just criminal bodies. A number of years ago, one writer, I believe in a Gun Digest, postulated that the long and heavy-for-caliber 200 grain bullet in a slow .38 was so effective because at the low velocities it was being pushed, it tended to become unstable upon striking the target, and thus tumbled, creating a larger wound channel.

The .38 200-grain bullet performance matching the old British and police loads is easy to achieve in short-barrel revolvers. I like to use the 200-grain bullet in a .38 Special case in a .357 SP 101 2.25-inch snubnose. The kick is very mild, llike a .38 special, with very low pressures, and if it's as effective as the old .455 Webley, then it packs quite a punch in such a small, efficient, easy-to-shoot package.

myronman3 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:17:20 AM »

Quote

But, I suppose a criminal might be stupid enough to sue for being shot.

hard to sue if they are dead.....

myronman3 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2007, 09:25:43 AM »

Quote from: ND Sharpshooter on March 31, 2007, 04:18:24 AM

I don't believe that it's an urban legend at all. Mas Ayoob maintains that it is unwise at best to use your own reloads in your personal defense arms of any type. None of the major self defense scribes dispute his assertion. Me? I'll spring for a box of factory ammo per year and be set. Use reloads for practice and replace the factory ammo once per year by shooting up the old box for practice and replacing it.

yeah. practice with one load, and carry another. recipe for trouble. if you only shoot 1 box a year, how could you have confidence in it? ayoob is a writer, not the be all end all. people have been effectively killed long before mr. ayoob came along. i am still waiting for an actual court case to be cited; it has been several years now, no one seems to be able to pony it up.......hmmmmmmm.

dakotashooter2 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 05, 2007, 08:24:43 AM »

I think the argument is the police cannot determine just how far away from the perp you were when the gun discharged unless a standard load is used so comparisons of powder burns, etc, can be used.

Quote

Easy to qualify... All they have to do is test the balance of YOUR ammo to get a comparison.

I Had a Md. state judge tell me he would throw the book at me IF I actually killed a perp. I am a" KNOWN shooter and should shoot to WOUND not kill".! His words.

Quote

Make sure you have this documented. It may come in handy to have him thrown off the trial for prejudice if a case does come up or if your family decides to sue him because he in effect ordered you to use less than deadly force when deadly force was needed and caused your death.

I'm not really that concerned about it in my neck of the woods as it would likely be a non issue. 1st cause there are many valid reasons for using handloaded ammo one being, such as in the case of the 41 special ammo that I shoot, that there is no factory ammo available, another being no ammo of proper design for such a task, is available (shooting corbons designed for big game hunting could be presented as overkill).

In my unqualified opinion any attorney that pushes that issue is taking a big risk. He may be put in a position to PROVE (remember it is his burden to prove) that your handloaded ammo is more deadly than factory ammo. What could be an undaunting task of which the results could as easily hurt his case as make it. By comparing a tested (factory) load against an untested (handload) load he may be able to suggest a more "deadly" load but likely not prove it based on one occurance. Regardless, there IS a chance that it could go against you but your more likely to get hit by a truck.

haroldclark · « **Reply #19 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:27:32 AM »

I am a retired Sheriff in California. Years ago,(40 years to be exact and before jacketed hollow point ammunition), the department issued the 200 grain lead bullet in 38 Specials. It had been the standard issue for less than a year and a Deputy had a shootout with a crook. The crook took 6 rounds and was still able to fight. The ammunition was pulled back immediately afterwards. We struggled with ammunition and the 160 grain SWC was issued. Ultimately, we went to the 357 Magnum with Federal's 110 grain jhp and it was a performer. I retired 20 years ago and the revolver has been replaced with the Sig in the Sig 357 cartridge and a 115 grain bullet. (By the way, the Sig 357 is really a 9mm. Sig didn't want the "stigma" sometimes associated with "9mm".) It is my opinion that I am well armed with a 9mm Browning Hi-power and my hand loads.

In the early 70s, I was assigned to test new ammo for our 9mm and 357s. For the 38 specials and 357s, the Federal Loadings at that time had a 110 grain bullet. It out performed all others available at that time. There has not been any major improvements in handgun projectiles. However, I do like the Hornady XTP bullets. They do expand nicely.

However, today, I carry LBT Ogival Wadcutters in my S&W Chief Special 3" barrel revolver. Years ago, I tested Speer hollow based wadcutters reversed with the hollow base being a whopping hollow point. If you load them up much over the old 2.7 grains of Bullseye and similar, the skirt tends to hit the forcing cone and I had bullets keyholeing.

Harold Clark

MikeP · « **Reply #20 on:** April 06, 2007, 10:04:59 AM »

I just read in another topic about a perp who was hit a total of 20 times by police bullets, including four shotgun slugs, before he finally went down.

What does that tell us?

Perhaps that a combination of off-target hit locations, possible drug craze, and plain bad luck can defeat velocity, bullet weight and FPE anytime.

Just pay your money and take your choice and practice a lot and pray for luck.

Steve P · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2007, 09:52:20 AM »

I have several handguns. None of them were purchased for self defense. I have a target (clay pigeon) load that I shoot in my 357s. 38 case with (3) 55gr Hollow base bullets stacked in a light load. If I happen to pick up that plinking gun and shoot my target load to protect myself, family, or property, I will not hit my wife or kids in the next room. There will be anywhere between one and three leaking spots. I hope they don't leak on the new wood floors.

Steve

docmagnum357 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 21, 2008, 05:16:49 PM »

I don't know where to weigh in on this subject, and i am a ccw trainer. I will say this, My state does not make any regulation on the caliber, type, size, or type of ammoa a ccw permit holder may carry. %00 smith an wesson or 22 short, it is all ok. Personally, I carry 180 grain xtps in my 44 magnum when working church security. They only pentrate about 12-13 inches in gelatin, and I might havew to shoot in a crowded room to stop an active shooter. They are handloads at 1700 feet per second. Everywhere else, overpenetration isn't a worry, so I carry 250 grain Keith style bullets at 1200 feet per second. Both loads are accurate and controlable, and Though they have slighly different points of impact, both are on a human torso at 25 yards. Gun(s) are sighted for the Keith load.

I don't worry about using handloads for self defense. I asked Veral Smith, and he said basically the same thing. He reccomended a 280 grain WFN at 1200. I just haven't gotten the scratch together to order a mold yet. Use whatever will do the job, RIGHT NOW. An active shooter is more dangerous than an overpentrating bullet, except in a place where the bullet could pentrate a wall, or in a crowd, such as a church sanctuary. I don't believe everything Maas Ayoob says either, but His veiwpoint is a consideration. Not the Gospel, but a consideration.

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #23 on:** August 26, 2008, 03:57:07 PM »

Buffalo Bore has a 150 grain wad cutter 38 Special load on the market at standard pressure. These may be worth taking a look at.

moto357 · « **Reply #24 on:** August 29, 2008, 03:35:47 PM »

I think I speek for any perp out there when I share my opinion that I've never seen anything that I'd wanna be shot with. Also though, I can't see any reason a cast load wouldn't be sufficient let alone any reason it wouldn't be legal. If I was to pick though, I'd go with a long heavy soft projectile, with a deep hollow point. I don't like jackets either 2

JBC · « **Reply #25 on:** September 04, 2008, 09:38:56 AM »

DOCMAGNUM357: Did you say CHURCH security??? what is this world coming to???

Cottonwood · « **Reply #26 on:** September 06, 2008, 09:47:36 AM »

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#38spl

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%20Bore%20158gr%20(non%20+P)%20SWC-HC.html

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #27 on:** September 22, 2008, 09:23:22 AM »

well boys ive seen enough game killed with even magnum handguns and your living in a dream world if you think ANY handgun is going to stop someone that wants to do harm to you instantly with anything other then a hit to the central nervous system and i would think that a lead 38 to the noggin would do it just as quickly as a 44 mag shooting hps. As to the court battle. Ive answered this question the same way for 10 years and nobody has come up with some black and white court examples to say that a guy was prosecuted for using handloads. I too am a ccw instructor and ive looked at the laws in reguards to a civlian using a weapon and some cases in which they did and youd best be dammed sure you are TOTALY justified in pulling the trigger because even if you are your in for many years of headaches with the law system in this country. The least of your problems will be if you handloaded your ammo. It was taught to me and i teach it the same. If you shoot shoot to kill and dont mess up. If you ever intentionaly wound someone you will be in more trouble then if you killed them and if you wound them unitentionaly its just something else you have to prove and the man will sue you even if its from prison! Dont be a cowboy. By that i mean dont stick your nose in someone elses fight. If somebody attacks me or my family they will be shot. In just about any other case you will see my hind end fading in the distance. Dont draw your gun unless your going to shoot. Drawing a gun and not shooting will get you a stay in the local jail. Follow those rules and in the very unlikely circumstance ever comes up where you have to actually shoot a man what load you are using wont matter a pinch.

Fat NDN · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2008, 03:41:52 PM »

I use 158 gr Oregon Trail Slver Bullets in my .38 Spl snub nose.

AtlLaw · « **Reply #29 on:** September 23, 2008, 01:39:20 PM »

Quote from: Lloyd Smale on September 22, 2008, 09:23:22 AM

well boys ... <major snippage> ... Follow those rules and in the very unlikely circumstance ever comes up where you have to actually shoot a man what load you are using wont matter a pinch.

Lloyd, for what it's worth, I think everything you said is a good, solid, opinion! I agree with you whole heartedly!