Author Topic: .38 cast bullet for self defense  (Read 4322 times)

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Offline LouisianaMan

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense & a very informal range report
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2008, 07:05:35 AM »
I've owned and shot many different handguns in almost 40 years of shooting, and have followed many trends & arguments over the years, such as "which bullet/caliber/action is the best," and ".38 vs .45," and "is the .38 good enough?" Although I've shot and read "a lot," it's a whole LOT LESS than many who post here. Also, my thoughts have been altered significantly by trying to teach & motivate my wife and daughters (17 and 12) to shoot the guns & loads that I choose.
     In a nutshell, I've simplified my beliefs considerably, and return more to those all-too-brief paragraphs in articles & books that emphasize picking a gun that fits and suiting your choices to what the shooter is comfortable with. . .because bullet placement and shooter confidence are more important than caliber, load, or bullet type.
     My .38 Cimarron Lightning 3.5" bbl is now loaded with Mikey's recipe: 200 grain LSWC (Mt. Baldy) over 3.8g Win231 powder. It shoots point of aim or just a bit high at ranges from 7 to 21 yards, and my probe contacted the base of these slugs about 2 3/4 inches deep into month-old pine logs (courtesy of Hurricane Gustav). This penetration depth seemed to apply whether at 7 or 21 yards. Penetration was about an inch less from the 2" Detective Special my wife keeps by the bedside, and POI was clearly higher--perhaps +4" at 7 yards.
     This load was very controllable in rapid fire, yet the shivers it sent up my arm in close-range hipshooting matched the shudders often visible when I hit 80-100 pound pine log chunks stacked two high. It often knocked over a lighter log (~30 pounds) that 152g and 158g bullets did not. In short, Mikey's load seems to deliver an authoritative blow on the target end, while having none of the muzzle flash that was clearly visible from 125g Hornady JHP and 110g Winchester Silvertips in the gathering twilight. Muzzle flip seemed less with the 200-grainer, too; it pushed back strongly for a .38, but didn't flip or flash.
     In short, I like this 200-grain .38 SPL standard loading. . .a *lot*. My wife is not 6', 185 lbs., and did not spend 24 years in the Army like I did. Her 5'3" stature, very small hand and modest upper-body strength combine with right-hand/left-eye dominance, mediocre visual acuity, and status as a very occasional shooter to provide a different situation for her. She was pleased to easily put the 200-grainers on paper, clearly in the kill zone, and rapidly. It's an important testament to both gun & load that she could do this, and it's one I failed to value appropriately when I was younger and more heavily influenced by ballistics, shooting statistics, and gunwriters' general enthusiasm for the well-made new products they get to test.
     Probably like many of your family members, my wife and daughters accept my views on guns and self-defense, but they shoot primarily to share that fun with me occasionally. My wife felt far more comfortable shooting 158g LSWC (Berry's plated) over 3.5g, 3.8g, or 4.2g of Win 231 than she was with the 200-grainers. (Indeed, she felt more of a shudder up her arm shooting 3.1g or 3.5g Win231 with a 152g RNFP from Berry's!) Since the 4.2g 158g LSWC load shoots to point of aim and she delivered hand-sized patterns quickly (6 shots in perhaps 2-3 secs.) at 7 yards, she wanted this load in her gun. . .and that's what we're doing.
     You see, I almost ruined shooting for her and my daughters a while back by matching their hand size to S&W .38 airweights, and trying 129g and 130g +P loads as well as 110g standard loads from Federal & Winchester. I got it right on hand size and bullet weight, and of course they loved the light guns, until they shot them. Flash, blast, muzzle flip, felt recoil, etc. The pounding of just a couple dozen rounds apiece made them avoid shooting for over a year and my 17-year-old daughter could hardly bring herself to keep her eyes open and pull the trigger when I recently got her a S&W mod. 30-1 in .32 Long! Painful to watch, and all my fault. She was so surprised when she DID manage a trigger pull that she quickly began to regain some of her earlier accuracy, but my earlier mistakes almost ruined shooting for her. Rest assured, I will experiment with some .32 cast bullet loads to see what we can do to make that gun as effective as she's able to handle. (She can't even pull the DA trigger on the Ruger SP-101 I got in .327 Fed Mag along with the S&W, since the gunshop had no other small-frame .32 available.) She also can shoot cloverleafs at 15 yds with a 9422M and does well with a Super Single-Six--because she trusts the experience, relaxes, and shoots well.
     My main house gun will remain a S&W 625-7 in .45LC with Speer GDHP, but I will feel very comfortable with the .38s. Most importantly, so does my wife!
     
     
"Oh, for a touch of the vanished hand and the sound of the voice that is stilled."

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2008, 04:36:29 PM »
Yep, I said Church Security.  Who would have thought we would have cops in schools, on airplanes, in the workplace?  A church is a target rich environment for radical muslims, liberal wackos, and other types of deranged people.  Most of church security work is making sure people aren't stealing gas from cars in the parking lot, sometimes controling/ removing intoxicated or drugged up people, and heading off domestic disputes that might spill over into a church.  I had a hard time with the idea at first, but after finding out that the local sherrif's office answers over 100 calls for service to churches in our county every years, I volunteered.

God forbid we ever have to shoot anyone in our "hospital of hope", but an active shooter must be put down NOW.  We just can't take chances in the day and hour we live in.  There is Biblical precident for this, particularly in the book of Nehamiah.  There were always "porters" or "gate keepers " around the tabernacle, and later, both temples.  Sad but true.

Offline docmagnum357

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2008, 02:27:24 PM »
Inregurds to the 200 grain load for the 38, try 2400 or 4227.  It is possible to get over 900 feet persecond with a 200 grqin bullet with either powder.  When i carried a model 15 Smith and Wesson I felt very comfortable with these loads.  Bothe were very accurate.  look in the Lee manual for recipes.  oF COURSE THESE ARE FOR FOUR INCH BARRELS.  The above loads of quicker powders are better for a 2" gun in my experience.

Offline Flash

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2008, 05:13:16 AM »
  The lawyers would have a field day.  They'll say you purposely loaded "super deadly" ammo with the intention of shooting someone.  I hate carrying factory loads because I don't trust hem, but I'm afraid of what a lawyer for some criminal might do to me in court if I ever had to use my handloads.  I hate to say it, but you better stick to factory loads.   Maybe find a supplier of factory stuff loaded with the bullet you choose.

Actually, I'm surprised the thread didn't stop here. When the district attorney addresses His Honor and states, "You were on such a crusade to kill that you weren't satisfied with the lethal power of factory supplied ammunition and had to tailor your own."...........what would you reply with??? Be mindful that you will be going against not the criminal but his counsel or..........vise versa. Stick to factory loads.
What doesn't kill us, makes us stronger!

Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #34 on: December 15, 2008, 02:11:14 AM »
No Sir,  I wasn't satisfied with the accuracy or cost of practice with factory ammution because in the event that I ever had to defend the life of myself or my family against someone like your client, I could do so with the least danger to any innocent that might be in the area.
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline myronman3

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2008, 03:00:49 AM »
that whole arguement is b.s.. it has never been an issue, EVER.  some idjit dreamed that stuff up to make himself look smart and for what ever reason, people repeat it.   you do what you want, but please stop spewing out someone's opinion as if it were a proven fact, which it is NOT.

Offline ButlerFord45

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2008, 04:51:39 AM »
that whole arguement is b.s.. it has never been an issue, EVER.  some idjit dreamed that stuff up to make himself look smart and for what ever reason, people repeat it.   you do what you want, but please stop spewing out someone's opinion as if it were a proven fact, which it is NOT.


+1
Butler Ford
He who does not punish evil, commands it to be done.-Leonardo da Vinci
An armed society is a polite society-Robert A. Heinlein
Only the dead have seen the end of war- Plato
Lord, make my words as sweet as honey
tomorrow I may have to eat them- A lady's sweatshirt

Offline bilmac

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2008, 06:47:59 AM »
Lloyd is right on. The most important thing that will save your butt if you have to shoot someone is,"I was Afraid". Maybe "I was afraid for my kids or wife"  If you cant say that and have the facts back it up, I would be thinking of a trip to Mexico.

Offline shakey

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2008, 08:24:18 AM »
The "super deadly" ammo argument is not really an ARGUMENT but a DIVERSION intended to steer people away from the true issue.

I don't know whether it has ever actually been used in court but, based on how successful it has been on numerous forums at diverting peoples attention from the real issues, it just might work.

If it distracts US enough to confuse us about the best ammo to use, how might it affect a poor juror who is probably clueless about the differences in ammo and gullible enough to believe almost anything?

I am not saying I WOULDN'T use handloaded ammo but I do lean toward factory stuff.

Offline myronman3

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2008, 09:29:30 AM »
i've said it before, and i will repeat it again.  i shoot with what i practice with, and i dont practice with factory ammo.

Offline 454Puma

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #40 on: December 16, 2008, 08:11:54 PM »
Flash
   Too answer your question- I don't have to prove anything the state has to prove my ammo is more deadly then factory ammo! Which they will not as ammo is ammo -bullets do the same work whether it loaded buy me or the factory! Besides with all the factory ammo advertisements it would very easy to paint the picture that there ammo is more deadly then I could ever make!  So using reloads  vs. factory ammo is a mute point!
One shot , One Kill

Offline bilmac

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Re: .38 cast bullet for self defense
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2008, 01:23:51 AM »
This question depends a lot on where you live. In Wyoming odds are out of 12 people you would have several who would now enough about guns and shooting that they would carry your water in the jury room. In the land of fruits and nuts,, slick lawyer talk may well prevail.