Author Topic: New project starting - Carronade (Read 16535 times)

Rickk · « **Reply #60 on:** May 12, 2007, 08:33:49 AM »

Hi DoubleD... I have flipped the quoin over and over and over and can't decide which way I like better.

Yes, I enlarged the truck axle holes in the back only so that they were elongated in the up and down direction. The "floor" is groved to accomodate the axle as well. While enlarging the holes with a 3/8 round file, I intentionally beveled the slot in the truck floor so that the axle would pivot in the middle. If I enlarged the truck side holes only, but it did not pivot in the middle, I think that one wheel would just hang limp. By bearing all the force in the center point of the axle, the axle gets all the weight and each wheel gets half of it. By applying the rear force in the middle of the axle I guess it sort of turns it into sort of a a "tripod" rather than a "quadrapod".

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one to run into this issue

When I visit the USS Consitution in the next month I will have to take a close peak and see if there are any suttle accomdations in the original carriages for this.

After I put the 42nd coat of Linseed oil on it, and mow my lawn, and cast some balls to pile up in front of it, I'll take some calendar entry pix

Tropico · « **Reply #61 on:** May 12, 2007, 03:36:31 PM »

It looks really great .,The floor came out nice as well. Yes I gotta do that on the ship cannons for sure . And Yea the 1" bore stuff is LOUD and economical 1 I am sold on them ., this 1" brooks is the best little Big gun going I think., Congrats Rickk on you fine work its turned out really great. All-Right El Cazador !!! Your Brooks will be next !

Rickk · « **Reply #62 on:** May 12, 2007, 04:07:40 PM »

Thanks Tropico

I know the floor isn't exactly historically correct, although it is possibly closer than just a flat floor.

However, the complexity of what I see when I look at it is such that it looks like it must have been done that way on purpose, so I think it would pass casual observation by someone who hasn't a clue what he is looking at as being a historically correct design I am sure

The rear "floor" is at 5 degrees. The quoin I will have to doublecheck ... I am thinking something like 20 degrees, but I need to make sure before I commit to remembering that right. The quoin is still a little "slippery" under the pressure of the barrel. The still drying linseed oil may be part of that slipery equation. Maybe a few more floor degrees would have been better. Still, I am sure it is better than flat. If it was flat the quion would be shooing out like a greased pig.

When cutting the 5 degree angle on my compound miter saw, it was hard to keep both sides perfectly exact. I realized that being able to dial in "degrees" on a modern saw has it's drawbacks. I think the tolerance stackup is worse that just marking rise and run and cutting along the dotted line.

When I make the big carriage, too big for the compound miter saw, I will just mark rise/run in inches on the wood and rough cut with a skill saw, followed by chiseling the mortise finished. A table saw would be nice, but don't have one, and don't have the room for one.

I am thinking that measuring rise/run may be more accurate that dialing in an angle, measuring and starting at the correct starting point, and then reversing the angle for the other side to do it a second time over there.

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #63 on:** May 12, 2007, 04:54:48 PM »

Patience My Brother Tropico , I will unveil my Brooks gun in weeks to come, but to be honest this carriage will be built for me by Len from Duck Island cannon works. I had to have Len do this one for me after the fine work he did on my marssily carriage for my 8 gauge salute cannon and my brother-in-laws Rev2-naval cannon.. as you can see in the pictures posted he does some pretty nice work...

Rickk · « **Reply #64 on:** May 13, 2007, 12:12:03 PM »

Caz,

I wanna know ... can't wait to see ... will it have 1/4 inch brass sholdered ringbolts?

tell me, tell me, tell me

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #65 on:** May 13, 2007, 03:49:19 PM »

Hey Rickk,

I was told YES, Bronze shoulder ringbolt and the wood will be an exotic (curly Koa) I'll keep you posted!!

Ed

intoodeep · « **Reply #66 on:** May 13, 2007, 04:30:38 PM »

EL Cazador 66

Ok, So, I had to "google" curly Koa.

That's some nice looking wood! Len does awesome work so, I'm looking forward to the finished project.

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #67 on:** May 13, 2007, 04:54:55 PM »

Yeah, that wood looks real sharp.. I know Len is something else when it comes to his woodworking, outstanding !!! Intodeep You have no idea how siked I am about this one. Keep eyes peeled for this one..

Ed

GGaskill · « **Reply #68 on:** May 13, 2007, 08:42:02 PM »

Psyched, people; psyched.

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #69 on:** May 14, 2007, 02:39:50 AM »

Your right George, this way of spelling psyched (siked) is computer slang...

that's what the kids tell me anyway...

jeeper1 · « **Reply #70 on:** May 14, 2007, 04:53:41 AM »

It's more like the children are so poorly educated they can only spell it phonetically. Poor spelling is one of my (many?) pet peeves.

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #71 on:** May 14, 2007, 05:14:09 AM »

Hey Jeeper, Lets not be too serious here, my daughter communicates in computer slang all time with her friends. FYI she is on the National Honors Society and will be attending Cornell university in the fall. So on the note back to what this forum is about cannons & mortars...

jeeper1 · « **Reply #72 on:** May 14, 2007, 07:10:45 AM »

Sorry. I didn't mean to step on any ones toes. It's just that I see that kind of thing a product of our educational systems deliberate dumbing down of people. It's easier to control the ignorant. And I'm just plain old fashioned.

Double D · « **Reply #73 on:** May 14, 2007, 07:33:40 AM »

Cannons, Gentlemen, cannons...

Rickk · « **Reply #74 on:** May 14, 2007, 02:49:39 PM »

Looks like Len needs to post some ringbolt pictures right quick so that I can check them out.

I don't want to be totally out classed.

EL Caz 66 · « **Reply #75 on:** May 14, 2007, 03:02:04 PM »

Oh no you didn't !!!

LOL

I'm sure Lendi will give us the honors... pictures please !!

Rickk · « **Reply #76 on:** May 14, 2007, 03:18:47 PM »

Here is a question for intodeep, and DD, and anyone else that has build a full sized naval gun.

When I put this brass gun together, using proportions that I believe are reasonably historically correct, I noticed something that had previously not occured to me as something that I think is built into the naval carriage design.

This completed gun weighs around 25#. It IS heavy. Yet, I can pick up the rear end with one finger with little effort to aim it. Is this unique to the one that I built, or is this a feature of the naval carriage in general? The center of gravity is releated to the trunnions being just to the rear of the front wheels and, well, every naval I have ever seen has the trunnions located there.

By coinicidence, I made the carriage stick out far enough in front of the front wheel that if I pick it up too far, the front bottom of the carriage hits ths grouond before it becomes top heavy and goes over nose first. This was totally by accident this time, but I have every intention of doing it on purpose for the 300# gun.

GGaskill · « **Reply #77 on:** May 14, 2007, 08:47:12 PM »

My 1/5 scale 24 pounder has a similar balance; just a little on the rear wheels. It may be intentional so the gun can be traversed relatively easily since it would have to be done by prying on a ship's deck. Remember that a full scale gun weighs on the order of 6000 lbs so the weight on the rear would still be substantial.

intoodeep · « **Reply #78 on:** May 15, 2007, 04:12:44 AM »

Quote from: GGaskill on May 14, 2007, 08:47:12 PM

It may be intentional so the gun can be traversed relatively easily since it would have to be done by prying on a ship's deck.

While, I cannot say for certain that GGaskill's statement is correct it does make sense. Naval guns were used both on ships and land. When on ships the ships were always moving. So, I think engagement was more of a volume volley then it was accuracy. Now, with these being used on land such as a fort. They would need to reposition the guns for aiming. Since, they have 4 straight wheels it is not as easy to turn them (as with a field piece) so, just a lift/pry and twist would do the trick.

Since, what I have posted is purely hypothetical it would be interesting to know for sure.

Rickk · « **Reply #79 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:17:39 AM »

intodeep, any idea how much force in pounds it takes to pick up the back of yours?

Double D · « **Reply #80 on:** May 15, 2007, 08:14:14 AM »

I can't help much in this discussion. The club gun is muzzle heavy.

My 1841 boat howitzer is made from the scaled plans the late William Green drew from the original gun. The trunnions bed to the rear of the front axle. The trunnions are to the rear of center just slightly on the tube.. The Breech area is heavy. The weight feels evenly distributed on my gun. It is not light in the rear, but it is definitely heavier in the front. Also keep in mind the original gun tube was an 1841 42 PDR field gun that was put on modified Navel gun truck, so distribution/proportions might not be the same as dedicated navel gun tube.

As far training the gun the block and tackle used to pull the gun back in battery and restrain the gun in recoil could be used to aim the gun. This gun also had a pair of hand spikes that went through a pair of d-loops on the bottom outside rear of the truck. With these hand spikes and a couple of men under them, per side the gun could probably be "bounced" to adjust windage.

Farmer Dean · « **Reply #81 on:** May 15, 2007, 01:33:13 PM »

My Mdl. 1841 is a Full Size on a naval carriage. The barrel weighs 850lbs. My 'elevation' weight at the breach is maybe 15lbs. Dean

GGaskill · « **Reply #82 on:** May 15, 2007, 02:58:45 PM »

Is that the preponderance (the weight that is placed on the elevation mechanism) or the weight on the rear wheels?

intoodeep · « **Reply #83 on:** May 15, 2007, 03:38:08 PM »

Quote from: Rickk on May 15, 2007, 05:17:39 AM

intodeep, any idea how much force in pounds it takes to pick up the back of yours?

Rick,

My guess is 40-45lbs. I even had the wife give it a go.

She thinks the same. We only lifted it an 1" or 2". Below is a photo of the area we lifted from. Hope this helps.

Rickk · « **Reply #84 on:** May 15, 2007, 04:04:03 PM »

I am starting to thing that my accident was an intentional feature of the naval carriage.

Intodeep, an yours tip over if lifted too high or will the front of the carriage hit the ground first and stop it from going nose over?

Tropico · « **Reply #85 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:04:43 PM »

Most of my naval carriages are short in the front . I believe that was to get plenty of forward length of barrel thru and past the ship and usually with the front wheels hitting the ship a little bit ahead of the carriage. If the axle is moved forward even a little ...., that drastically changes the weight distribution to make it much heavier in the breech. I had 1 cannon carriage that the center of the front axle was in line with the trunnion...,and it would go nose down much much easier.., and the carriage would not catch it.

With the axle a little further in front of the trunnion .,way more stable ! ! ! the carriage wont catch it....., but it wont go forward over either.

intoodeep · « **Reply #86 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:05:11 PM »

Quote from: Rickk on May 15, 2007, 04:04:03 PM

Intodeep, an yours tip over if lifted too high or will the front of the carriage hit the ground first and stop it from going nose over?

Rick,

If mine was to do a header it would be the muzzle that hit the ground first. To be honest I have never seen a large naval gun take a nose dive. I think the only way it would happen is, improper handling or someone trying to sit on the end of the tube (don't ask, I was a kid).

I know that even a field piece has the same balance issues (just a little higher center of gravity) and can even take a nose dive if not handled correctly (I know sounds crazy). I have personally moved around a 1/2 scale field piece and at times it feels like it wants to go over.

I understand your concern for safety but, you are the best to make that call as it is your own design. We look forward to your final product.

Double D · « **Reply #87 on:** May 15, 2007, 05:43:31 PM »

My truck has an extended rounded "bumper" that would, could, should keep the front wheels from banging the bulkhead. This rounded bumper bedding against a rub rail would stand the wheels away bulkhead and should allow for the truck to be pointed better. Something you couldn't do very wheel with both wheels snubbed up tight against the rail. The round bumper might even serve as a sort of pivot point for pointing the gun

Just for the record, this gun is scheduled for referb in 2012 and will be repainted the proper colors.

Ex 49'er · « **Reply #88 on:** May 15, 2007, 09:15:56 PM »

Heavens to betsy!! Why would you want to paint it? The natural wood looks just hunky-dory to me. Paint would ruin it.

Double D · « **Reply #89 on:** May 16, 2007, 05:33:34 AM »

Unpainted wood on a cannon carriage is the same as bare metal on barrel...unfinished and unnatural. Like buying a Corvette and going for the no paint option!!!