Author Topic: S&W 500 or S&W 460 for dangerous game defense (Read 3794 times)

RollTide · « **on:** March 31, 2007, 08:11:15 AM »

I need your help. I have just about decided to buy one of S&W big bore revolvers. I really like the lower felt recoil, versatility and availability of cartridges, and lower cost of ammo available ammo for the 460. On the 500 side of things are the raw power and heavier bullets for the most functional use I might make of the gun, bear/moose defense. I have a Dan Wesson 445supermag which is totally functional for any long range revolver work I might do, so the niche this new purchase will fill for me is short range protection work.

Do you think that the 500 has enough more power over the 460 to outweigh all the other advantages of the 460?

Is there anything I am overlooking as far a advantages or disadvantages of the 500 compared to the 460 for dangerous game defense?

All thoughts and input appreciated,

Roll Tide

475/480 · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2007, 12:04:11 PM »

IMO,
The SW 500 has advantages over the 460 were it really counts.
Bigger frontal area,heavier bullets,these play a BIG role if I was concerned about dangerous game.

I always prefer a 475 or 500 cal over any 45 especially for dangerous game..

Sean

superdown · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2007, 01:09:14 PM »

hi guys i will just add my $.02 worth i agree 100% with 475/480 also look at 500 s&W special rounds from cor-bon ammo for practice or defence because they recoil less and hitting what your aming at is the most important thing in that situation a full power load of any kind is useless if it does not hit the target. personally i would much rather hit a bear 6 times with a 44mag than once or twice if at all with 460/500 . dont get me wrong i like all big bore hanguns and have many but accuracy is what counts in a dyer situation. good luck with your choice. ,superdown

Ken ONeill · « **Reply #3 on:** April 01, 2007, 01:23:10 AM »

To the extent that the revolver would ever, indeed, be used for "short range bear or moose protection", the 500 S&W with 400-440 gr. bullets would be the superior stopper for the person who can shoot it well.

S.B. · « **Reply #4 on:** April 01, 2007, 01:52:07 AM »

I don't think any caliber handgun will teach how to calm ones nerves during stressful cituations? Therefore, I would recommend training and a ton of practice, before buying any gun, for the protection from dangerous game.

dubber123 · « **Reply #5 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:30:34 AM »

My brothers 500 is on it's way back for Smiths 3rd attempt to make it go "bang" every time the trigger is pulled. Currently you get one good shot for sure, the second? well, maybe. If you have a dependable big-bore already, stick with it. I know alot of people have the new "big" Smiths, but after seeing this one in action, (or not), I'd have a hard time trusting my bacon to it. Just my opinion.

EDELWEISS · « **Reply #6 on:** April 01, 2007, 04:40:12 AM »

For what its worth, Im looking into the same type of revolver. I doubt I'll ever need it for four legged DG; but its more of a "just because" buy. I really like the looks and feel of the Ruger Alaskans and the 454 especially with the unfluted cylinder. The S&W 500 has been calling as well.

My concerns are more related to ammo avalibility. Im always concerned about where I can get more ammo. 500 460 and 454 arent exactly what you might call "hardware store" rounds. Now Im sure most of us stock up on ammo and supplies; but how many of us will admit leaving home for a hunting trip with something left behind??? Thats why Im leaning towards the 454, at least I can use 45 colt. For that matter the 44mag is even more likely to be found at the "Ma and Pa" general store in the middle of no where. Neither of those has the same impact as the 500 or 460, but they're way above an empty cylinder.

Just like 44mag used to be a rarity, Im sure the new "big guys" will find a place on the shelves of the smaller shops eventually, until then I'll stick with a round I know I can find, unless its just for shooting holes in paper.

Oh yeah here's $.02

S.B. · « **Reply #7 on:** April 01, 2007, 05:48:12 AM »

EDELWEISS, .454 can be fired in the S&W .460 for that matter, so can the .45LC? When was the last time you saw a box of .45 Long Colt ammo, in a ma & pa hardware store, not around here. For your reasoning, I would pick a .44 mag.

Explorer1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 01, 2007, 06:32:58 AM »

First need is being able to handle the gun in time of need. I have a 4" .500 S&W and bluntly its a hand full with full loads.

I use "light" cast bullet reloads (~44 mag level) for playing and buy a box of 440gr factory stuff yearly to carry in those situations that I might need a stick of lighting in.

I too believe in heavy bullets equal penetration so I have a .500. If you want distance or versatility, get the 460 IMHO.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2007, 12:44:49 PM »

I have both the 460 and 500 Mags. Love them both as much as I love the other. My 500 is my up close and personal gun and my 460 is for my long range work.

Every time I pull the trigger it goes BOOM.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #10 on:** April 01, 2007, 02:22:45 PM »

Try to keep in mind that every big game animal on the N. American continent has been killed with a .44 mag. It goes without saying that the .454 Casull is up to the task and the big X frame guns are (your choice) either extra insurance or simply superfluous.

RollTide · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2007, 03:37:51 PM »

With all due respect, I am not asking about killing, I am asking about keeping a massive animal from killing you. There are an entirely different set of requirements for defense than there is for hunting. I have confidence that my 445 Supermag would do fine for hunting, but for stopping those types of big animals. Any handgun is a BIG compromise. I am just asking specifically if the difference in defensive power is significantly better in the 500 than the 460, with complete understanding that neither should be depended on as a primary weapon for defense against the animals listed.

Roll Tide

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2007, 04:29:05 PM »

Simple, go with the 500 Mag.

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #13 on:** April 05, 2007, 07:34:32 PM »

I would go with a short barrel 460 and load it with a deep penetrating 454 load. The Winchester 300 grain flat point is the original load and it would be a good one for bear protection. Really I think both choices are much to heavy for my tastes. I would rather have a light and handy 44 magnum loaded with a 305 grain CorBon Penetrator for bear protection. A 3 or 4 inch Smith would be hard to beat.

S.B. · « **Reply #14 on:** April 06, 2007, 02:32:08 AM »

AkHiker, why .454s instead of .460s with deep penetrating loads?

gypsyman · « **Reply #15 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:18:38 AM »

Rolltide, I have nothing against somebody buying a new gun. Go ahead and get one. My thought is, as long as the .445 is good for long range projects, short range is a chip shot. I cast a 330gr. LBT bullet for my .44's, including my DW .445. I certainly do not feel under gunned using it. I made several trips to Idaho on elk hunts with it, and never once felt like I needed something bigger. To me, shot placement is more important. On one of the trips, my cousin, using a .243, dropped a 700lb cow elk with one shot. Most of the guys in camp ribbed him for using that small of a caliber. 2 days later, all of us were tracking a bull, that one of the guys shot with a .300win mag, and took us most of a day to catch up with him. But then again, Smith&Wesson probably needs the money. Good luck!! We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!! Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:37:17 AM »

gypsyman, shot placement is always key, no matter what you are shooting. That is a no brainer in my opinion.

I doubt S&W is hurting for money, that's why they were able to buy T/C.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:16:59 AM »

Shooting the 460 or the 500 Smith double action in a defensive situation would be interesting. Can 5 shots in 5 seconds be accurate and effective? Maybe.

Cheese

S.B. · « **Reply #18 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:43:44 AM »

I heard, just a few weeks back, that their market value went up?

RollTide · « **Reply #19 on:** April 06, 2007, 09:47:22 AM »

I really appreciate everyone's input and that is precisely what I was hoping for when I made the post. I really like big bore revolvers, but I can't justify the purchase of a larger one if it does not give me an added edge in some practial way. (Just a silly quirk of mine.) I do believe that the 460 and the 500 will give me a edge in power against big bruins. The 44mag and certainly the 445supermag is fine for black bears and probably lower 48 grizzlies, but for really big Alasakan stuff, the extra power of the big Smiths could definitely make the difference between walking away or not. I am a big guy, so carrying the extra weight is not an issue. I buy guns for how they shoot, not how they carry. If I am going to compromise anything first, it will be comfort and convenience before power and "shoot-ability."

I know that the 460 shoots a little faster and that the 500 will shoot significantly heavier bullets, I am just trying to understand how each of those characteristics will translate into a dangerous game defense situation at clase range. I assume the heavier bullet at slower speed will have a penetration advantage, although I have not seen much info to confirm that through actual test, mostly just ideas from people who like one or the other. (I have all the Linebaugh data) The rifle rounds that seem to be real stoppers on these big dangerous animals are a lot faster, seem to have more shock power, and penetrate far less that some of the really big slow bullets, yet they have proven time and again to be reliable stoppers (375H&H) on these big dangerous animals.

SOOOOOO

Which is better?

460 S&W
Punch Bullet 315grains 1,600fps n/a Paper Only Pen. 49.0" 4" bone + paper pen.

500 S&W
Punch Bullet 450grains 1,297fps 46.0" Paper Only Pen. 43.5" 4" bone + paper pen.

445 Supermag
Punch Bullet 300grains 1732fps 45.0" Paper Only Pen n/a 4" bone + paper pen.

Roll Tide

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #20 on:** April 07, 2007, 01:25:03 PM »

First off if I was in the field with them big browns, I would like to be carrying a 12 ga. slug gun. If that wasn't available my next pick would be the .500 S&W.

Not much of a choice there pal.

Catfish · « **Reply #21 on:** April 07, 2007, 02:19:21 PM »

First off the .44 mag. is plenty of stop for abt. anything other than a brown bear. For the big browns I`ll take my .500 S&W. I don`t worry abt. finding ammo as I load all of my own, and I have some 700 gr. bullets for the .500. When load to the heavy side, they have a hair more TKO than a .458 Win. mag. loaded to the max. with 400 gr. bullets. I have a video clip I`m sure you guys would like. It`s of a little girl, abt. 110 lbs. fireing my production model 500 S&W with 440 gr. bullets loaded to the max. It was also the first day she ever shot a handgun. BUT, she started small, with a 629 S&W .44 mag. and worked her way up.

S.B. · « **Reply #22 on:** April 07, 2007, 03:42:18 PM »

Post a link to your videw, Catfish? Please?

RollTide · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2007, 04:08:21 PM »

Lawful Larry,
I hear ya about having a 12ga. I would probably choose either a 12ga or a 375H&H as primary defense, but I would have the handgun as backup. Many FEEL the way you do about the 500, what in particular makes you feel that way?

Catfish,
Do you have any penetration data on those big 700gr loads compared to the 440gr 500 loads. With the Punch Bullets which are the best perpetrators I have found yet, the 450gr 500 load actually penetrates LESS than the 460 and about the same as the 445supermag. Since the velocity is actually decreasing with the heavier load, if it doesn't penetrate more it might be even less effective than the lighter bullets. I would have guessed that the 450gr 500 would have out penetrated the 315gr 460, but I owuld have been wrong. The velocity of the 460 with the non-deforming punch bullets actually makes it out penetrate the "more powerful" 450gr 500 load witht he same type bullet.

The original question seems deceptively simple until you get right down to the facts beyond the feelings.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #24 on:** April 08, 2007, 06:30:40 AM »

Quote from: RollTide on April 07, 2007, 04:08:21 PM

Lawful Larry,
I Many FEEL the way you do about the 500, what in particular makes you feel that way?

I like the idea of the .500 making a very large hole, which in itself is a great plus factor. The main reason for putting the .500 at the top of my list is pounds of pressure, or some call it muzzle energy (ME).

Velocity means a lot to some people, but not me. I am more interested in the pounds of force/energy the bullet is producing at impact. Sorry I don't have the statistics on the .500 S&W. Just can't seem to remember where I located them. Maybe someone else has a copy of them and can post them for your interest.

RollTide · « **Reply #25 on:** April 09, 2007, 05:40:01 AM »

I looked up the ME figures, and the best loads for the 460 and the 500 are about equal. I did some rough calculation on crush cavity volume of bore size holes, and the advantage for the bigger diameter 50 cal bullet is only slight if the penetration depth is equal, and the best penetration data I have puts the 460 a little better than the 500 in penetration, so that brings them almost dead even comparing bore size crush cavity.

The more I look at it and the more everyone shares on the subject, it looks like for velocity, energy, penetration, and crush cavity, there is really no difference in the 460 and the 500 that would be a difference maker in a defensive shooting. I am really starting to lean more to the 460 due to the advantages listed in the original post.

Am I missing something here?

Roll Tide

gypsyman · « **Reply #26 on:** April 13, 2007, 02:12:57 AM »

After thinking about your situation, I guess I would go with the 460. You have several different combinations of brass to choose from, and bullet selection would be a much greater variety. From real mild, to extremely wild. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 13, 2007, 02:38:18 AM »

Quote from: gypsyman on April 13, 2007, 02:12:57 AM

After thinking about your situation, I guess I would go with the 460. You have several different combinations of brass to choose from, and bullet selection would be a much greater variety. From real mild, to extremely wild. We keep trying peace, it usually doesn't work!!Remember(12/7/41)(9/11/01) gypsyman

You get a better bullet selection with the 500 Mag. 275 to 700 gr. for the 460 it is 185 to 390 gr.
I own both guns, and if I had to choose one of dangerous game, the 500 Mag would be the one.

RollTide · « **Reply #28 on:** April 13, 2007, 01:12:43 PM »

Redhawk,
You have a lot of experience with both guns. What is it about the 500 that makes you choose it for up close protection?

Roll Tide

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #29 on:** April 13, 2007, 03:41:08 PM »

I like the big hole it makes, to be honest with you. I am sure they both will do a great job, but big bullets with a lot of weight is what I would want. When I shot my black bear with my 500 Mag, I was amazed how quick it died. It was instantaneous, dead before he hit the ground.