Author Topic: 30 T/C? Why (Read 2758 times)

K.K · « **on:** April 02, 2007, 02:05:24 PM »

I'm all for new calibers, and I have purchased more than a few (17 HMR, 300 WSM, .450 Marlin, etc), but why the 30 T/C? IS it truly a short-action 30-06? What does it offer that others don't (except short-action in the new bolt gun?)

Lone Star · « **Reply #1 on:** April 02, 2007, 03:38:58 PM »

It offers newness and the promise of great performance. Yours is a great question, but I have to chuckle at some posters who decry the gun makers for bringing out new cartridges - yet these same folks seem to embrace new cars, new TVs, new computers, new phones...you get the idea. Face it, guns are consumer products just like vacuums and ED pills, and to increase sales - and thus stay in business - the gun makers have to continually bring out new products.

Anyone who swears that there is no "need" for new cartridges and won't buy any, simply helps doom those few gun makers we have left. Instead of condemning them, we should look at new chamberings as opportunities to learn something new. Maybe they are not "better" than the mouldy .30-06, but they offer us the chance to expand our experience and knowledge. I consider that a good thing for the individual and for the sport.

.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #2 on:** April 03, 2007, 12:43:13 AM »

Quote

Yours is a great question, but I have to chuckle at some posters who decry the gun makers for bringing out new cartridges - yet these same folks seem to embrace new cars, new TVs, new computers, new phones...you get the idea.

In my opinion, the 30 T/C is the solution to a problem that doesn't exist. There are 3 classic .308 caliber chamberings with which all can be done that needs to be done in the .308 caliber. They would be the 30/30 Win., the 308 Winchester and the 300 Weatherby Magnum (let the flames begin). Everything else is superfluous fluf.

I know I'm in the minority, but if it weren't for the internet and digital photography, I would still probably be happy with my old 386 DOS computer. If I could get a new one, a car identical to the 1967 Chevy Biscayne would suit me just fine, etc.

alsaqr · « **Reply #3 on:** April 03, 2007, 01:54:15 AM »

No, it is not a short action .30-06. It is a solution looking for a problem. My .308 hand loads equal the best loads from this thing. The .30-06 is even better. Wonder why they did not just use the .300 Savage case.

hunter5325 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 03, 2007, 04:21:42 AM »

Yeah, seems kinds pointless to me.

Lone Star · « **Reply #5 on:** April 03, 2007, 03:11:59 PM »

Easy to answer the "why didn't they just use the .300 Savage" question - that cartridge is loaded to low, early 20th century pressures. It would be irresponsible to introduce a 60,000 psi load for the .300 Savage with all the ancient M99s floating around.

I can see that none of you have much experience selling stuff. The 30 T/C IS an answer to a real problem - how does T/C differentiate itself from the plethora of other rifle makers? One way is to offer a new cartridge. Every other similar rifle chambers the .308; T/C decided to make a difference. I am not saying it was a smart idea, I do not know - but it is easy to see the reasoning for it....if you would bother to think outside the limited, parochial, conservative shooter's box instead of parrotting the tired old standard "solution looking for a problem" cliche.

.

alsaqr · « **Reply #6 on:** April 04, 2007, 02:17:00 AM »

"I am not saying it was a smart idea, I do not know - but it is easy to see the reasoning for it....if you would bother to think outside the limited, parochial, conservative shooter's box instead of parrotting the tired old standard "solution looking for a problem" cliche."

Say what you want, it is still a problem looking for a solution.

Grumulkin · « **Reply #7 on:** April 04, 2007, 04:46:00 AM »

Quote from: Lone Star on April 03, 2007, 03:11:59 PM

I can see that none of you have much experience selling stuff. The 30 T/C IS an answer to a real problem - how does T/C differentiate itself from the plethora of other rifle makers?

First of all, T/C HAS already differentiated itself from other rifle makers in it's unique single shot firearms and in its second to none customer service. They didn't need their own cartridge to differentiate themselves. I'll admit though, that any new cartridge will sell new guns to those who don't know any better (i.e., suckers). For those who believe advertising hype and are unsophisticated shoppers, newer is always better.

My prediction is that the 30 T/C will be a flash in the pan. It will sell new guns (hooray for T/C) and will finally die a lingering death as the 30/06 and 308 Winchester soldier on.

superdown · « **Reply #8 on:** April 04, 2007, 08:26:42 AM »

this is my $0.02 its another rifle/chambering that i will buy put in my gun safe for a few years and then sell for a good profit to someone who has to have it like 356win 94 / marlin 62 30 carbine / 99 358/ rem 600 moehawk/ and the list could continue but it boils down to it being a limited appeal market buy something uniqe and someone will not be able to live whithout it in couple of years. then im happy with my investment . superdown

reelhook · « **Reply #9 on:** April 04, 2007, 02:35:03 PM »

"the reason is called "Ego" such as 357 sig-45 GAP and now 30 TC

\

Lone Star · « **Reply #10 on:** April 04, 2007, 03:36:25 PM »

Quote

First of all, T/C HAS already differentiated itself from other rifle makers...

Not with their new bolt rifle they haven't. 'Everyone' else makes a .30 caliber bolt rifle - T/C still needs to differentiate their bolt gun from those of other makers to gain market share. But I guess it is more fun to beat-up and bad-mouth an honorable US company just trying to make ends meet. Go for it guys.

.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #11 on:** April 04, 2007, 05:33:42 PM »

I think it was John Kennedy who said some people look at a problem and say "why", and I look at it and say "why not". Some people just don't like change.

I just bot a new car. It's a 2007 Chevy Impala. Now, my Dad owned a 1973 Impala. The difference is mine is a Impala SS. Yeah....red too! V8....man is this thing fast.

So, would I buy the new T\C? Not yet.....I just bot 2 new guns in the last 3 weeks. my wife would use the next one on me. So, I gotta give it a few months....but yeah, I'll pick one up.

Why not?

Dave

Keith L · « **Reply #12 on:** April 04, 2007, 10:50:40 PM »

The way progress is made is by trying new things. If we never tried anything new we would still be living in caves and using pointed sticks instead of guns. In the long run the success of this new gun/chambering will be determined by the market. At least TC is trying.

Cement Man · « **Reply #13 on:** April 04, 2007, 11:46:53 PM »

I applaud more ideas and products and appreciate that we have so many choices!

swampthing · « **Reply #14 on:** April 05, 2007, 09:59:41 AM »

According to T/C the 30T/C equals 30-06 velocities when firing 150g projectiles in a short length case. 150g 308win loads can come "close" to the velocity of an 06', but not duplicate.

Cheesehead · « **Reply #15 on:** April 05, 2007, 11:54:50 AM »

How short is the 30 tc case as compared to the 308 Win?

Cheese

300winman · « **Reply #16 on:** April 06, 2007, 03:12:12 PM »

New cartridges spice up the industry. Why is it every time a new cartridge comes out we have to put it down as trying push another cartridge into obsolescence. If this had been the thought process a 120 years ago we would still be shooting black powder cartridges and thinking the 45-70 was king. New cartridges open the way for a variety of cartridges for the future. I bought a 450 marlin when it came out several years ago, not thinking it had any real advantage over the 45-70, just wanted to buy something new. I'm one of those guys who gets bored seeing gun shops full of 308 win and 30-06. Not to say these are bad cartridges, I have owned them and might own another in the future. But there is something that motivates you to buy a new gun when it is chambered in a new caliber, like being the first kid on the block to own the new style bike when we were younger. It wasn't about being better than the old, it was just about having something new. This only helps the industry and our sport. If not for the new, we would all just be satisfied shooting Grandpa's old reliable, leaving the gun industry in a small corner of America.

oneshotonekill · « **Reply #17 on:** April 06, 2007, 05:36:19 PM »

I was kind of shocked to see Hornady release ammo for the 30 TC and the 308 marlin at about the same time. In concept these rounds are very similar, one is based on a shortened 308 win case the other on the 307. Why not just chamber for the 307 and 308? I guess with Hornady engineers and special powders they are getting the ballistic equivalent of the bigger calibers out of a smaller more efficient case. Will it help gun makers make money? Doubtful, lets face it these new calibers take a good bit of R&D which =$$$ then new tooling again =$$$ then you have to hope your advertising hits the right market and the product sells. Even if these new calibers were to sell well enough to help the gun manufactures what does it do to mom and pop gun shops? Do you think they can afford the overhead of adding rifles chambered in a bunch of new calibers to their inventory? What about stocking ammo for all of these calibers? If anything I think releasing several similar calibers over a short period will do nothing but hurt the gun makers and gun shop owners. If you ask me Hornady is the only one that will come out ahead in this game. They are playing both sides by getting paid to develop these new calibers to achieve superior balistics over a standard cartridge while at the same time they are developing better ammo for the standard cartridge ie leverevolution for the 30-30 hits the market right before the new 308 marlin is released.

encore58 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 07, 2007, 05:43:56 AM »

Sounds like a deer hunters dream cartridge to me. I like short action .30 calibers. It performs better than a .308 Win. so why not develop it? Great idea from a great American company.

Encore28 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 08, 2007, 02:51:18 PM »

Quote from: encore58 on April 07, 2007, 05:43:56 AM

Sounds like a deer hunters dream cartridge to me. I like short action .30 calibers. It performs better than a .308 Win. so why not develop it? Great idea from a great American company.

That's What I thought!!!!
Encore28

grodon of the north · « **Reply #20 on:** April 08, 2007, 08:57:37 PM »

How does the formula work? 30/06 performance x less case capacity=higher operating pressures. Is that right or is there really some kind of ballistic magic going on.

There's my two pesos worth

Mac11700 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 09, 2007, 04:36:24 AM »

I don't understand you guys...The 30TC was built specifically for the new TC Icon...and the Icon was designed by B/R shooters...Look at what the cartridge will offer...

Quote

Quite possibly the most technologically advanced cartridge ever developed, the new Hornady 30 T/C was specifically designed for Thompson Center's new Icon bolt-action rifle. Built on the premise of optimal ballistics, Hornady has perfected the balance between case volume, bore volume and burn rates for both the 150 and 165 grain offerings.

The 30 T/C is slightly smaller in capacity than the 308 Winchester, but delivers ballistic performance exceeding the 30-06. With a muzzle velocity of 3000 fps, the 150 grain load outperforms the 308 Win by 180 fps and outperforms the 30-06 by nearly 100 fps. The 30 T/C provides a 15 percent reduction in perceived recoil, ultra smooth feeding, full magazine capacity, a short bolt throw, longer barrel life and delivers full ballistic potential in a short action case.

Similar to an ultra high precision race car engine, the 30 T/C delivers astounding performance with cutting edge design, propellants and a close collaboration between firearm and ammunition engineers.

Packaged in boxes of twenty, the item number for the new 30 T/C, 150 gr SST is 81004. The 30 T/C 165 gr SST is item number 81014.

Will it be as good in our single shot rifles? I don't know why it won't offer the same thing...It's a new cartridge ..in a shorter case offering more performance out of the box than a 06' factory offerings...One day folks will realize...there are more shooters who don't reload than do...So...in reality....it does solve a problem for those who don't hand load...

Mac

Davemuzz · « **Reply #22 on:** April 10, 2007, 12:20:47 AM »

30-06 performance from a short action case from a nice looking bolt action rifle! Yeah, I'll take that. Higher pressures? Yeah...and so??? When Smith & Wesson introduced the 460 with the gain twist in a short barrel the nay-sayers' came out and said "it won't be long before many shooters will be injured or worse with guns shattering from this poorly enginerred designed."

Yeah, well....where are all of these "injured" shooters?

If pressures are higher, the chamber must be built to handle it. So? If you need a quick second or third shot, i'll take a short action over a long action any day of the week.

Dave

Grumulkin · « **Reply #23 on:** April 10, 2007, 01:56:39 AM »

I was wrong. The 30 T/C will do well. There are going to be many more believing customers for the 30 T/C than I had thought.

It's true, most people don't handload. My prophecy is that rounds like the 308 Win. and 30/06 will still be the most economical and easiest to find for those who don't handload. In fact, bullet selection in factory loads in the latter will probably always be better than in the 30 T/C.

If some people need a half inch less bolt throw to be confident in getting a quick second shot, then the 30 T/C is the way to go. I've taken all of my big game animals with a single shot weapon though and have found them fast enough even on those uncommon occasions when a second shot was needed. That was true even with a 375 H&H Magnum; if I had used a shorter cartridge I would have had an inch less to pull out of the chamber. I forgot though, I never needed a second shot with the 375 H&H Magnum.

The new T/C bolt gun does offer the integral Picatinny base which is a good innovation and one which other manufacturers with any brains are sure to follow. The accuracy, from what I've read, isn't stellar though adequate. In my opinion, the gun is pretty expensive considering what it delivers. If I were ever to change my mind regarding the virtues of this gun, my chambering of choice would certainly not be the 30 T/C.

no guns here · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2007, 02:36:10 AM »

If they really wanted to do something "new" with the bolt gun concept they would have designed a new straight pull, switch barrel rifle. The ICON is not new, just a repackaged 100 year old Mauser action. Looks nice but doesn't do anything a 40 year model Rem-Chester bolt action doesn't do. Would LOVE to see an AFFORDABLE switch barrel bolt action. Something like a Blaser R93 but for under $1000.

ngh

Davemuzz · « **Reply #25 on:** April 10, 2007, 05:33:25 PM »

I don't think the idea was the introduction of a new "action". It was the introduction of a new bolt action "gun". It was also the introduction of a new "caliber" for this new "gun", that is in a tried, true and tested bolt action that is widely accepted as rock solid.

Dave.

JPH45 · « **Reply #26 on:** April 15, 2007, 05:18:37 PM »

Paraphrasing Jan Libourel, "The gun industry thrives on novelty. Would I trade my 270 Win for a 270 WSM? No. But were I in the market for a new rifle and didn't have a 270 Win, the 270 WSM would have greater appeal"

Gun markets are tight and getting more so each year. There are fewer and fewer of us each year, less and less land to hunt and fewer places to shoot. The next generation of shooters is not nearly as likely to own several of one type of gun as they are to own a few better and best quality guns. That is I think the market TC is really going after.

Sad though, I too wish they had instead offered a switch barrel bolt, or even a switch barrel falling block design. I hope the bolt does well for them, but I think it would be better to leave that market to Savage and develop arms to fill other markets, it seems to be what TC does and does well.

Would I have a 30 TC? Not when a 223, 243, 25-06 and 30-30 fill all my shooting needs. I don't need another rifle, I need another Encore frame to support the barrels I have. In the end, I think the 30 TC will flop for the same reasons the WSM and WSSM's will, there was no demand for such cartridges, and any niche the 30 TC fills is more imagined than real. Nothing shot with it, paper or elk will be any deader than if shot by a 308 or 30-06, and any other advertising hype is just that, hype and once it's in the hands of shooters, the real truth will be known and it will become just one more of a plethora of 30's that are available but seldom seen.

Davemuzz · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2007, 12:41:11 AM »

JPH45, That would be your opinion. Chuck Hawks opiines that the 17hmr is one of the finest rimfires that has ever been developed. I have owned a 17hmr. I had worked with that gun for over a year and bot & shot every rimfire ammo produced by every manfacturer out there.

I sold the gun after a year as that caliber just would not provide a clean one shot kill on groundhogs. So, it is my opinion that the 17hmr is nothing more than a POS round and any 22 centerfire will do the job much better than the 17hmr. Yet, the 17hmr is alive and well.

I've read a lot of what Chuck Hawks has written. Some of it is good and most of it is BS, but all of it is his opinion. And like his opinion, your opinion and my opinion, it doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It will come down to how hard the gun rag writers push the new cartridge.

You can load down a 30-06 to 308 performance, but you can't load a 308 up to 30-06 performance. But if you can get a short action cartridge to give you 30-06 performance, and your in the market for a new gun, then why not consider the new T\C? And besides, not all the hunters out there are the one shot magnifico stellar shooters that some people are.

Dave.

Encore28 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 21, 2007, 03:48:51 PM »

I think I will get a .30 T/C barrel in the "old" Encore configuration-----------I wouldn't want the 28in barrel offered in the Pro Hunter but more like a 24in barrel.
I like oddball calibers and this one is quite functional also.
Just my two cents
Encore28

Davemuzz · « **Reply #29 on:** April 22, 2007, 03:55:40 AM »

Quote from: Encore28 on April 21, 2007, 03:48:51 PM

I think I will get a .30 T/C barrel in the "old" Encore configuration-----------I wouldn't want the 28in barrel offered in the Pro Hunter but more like a 24in barrel.

You make an interesting point here. I think I'd have to wait 'n see what the research (I probably use that term loosely) or the crony says the velocity difference between the 24" and the 28" barrel is. Then of course, there is the matter of where you hunt. If your longest shot is 300 yards, it probably doesn't matter. But then, if your just into numbers, maybe it does.

Dave