bill 4554 - to allow smokeless powder muzzleloaders in michigan

[harvester]

some of you may have seen this on other boards, but this is exciting news.. smokeless powder muzzleloading has always been legal during general firearms season, just not during muzzleloading season.
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HOUSE BILL No. 4554
March 29, 2007, Introduced by Reps. Calley, Stakoe, Hildenbrand, Agema, Opsommer, Hammon and Rick Jones and referred to the Committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources.

A bill to amend 1994 PA 451, entitled
"Natural resources and environmental protection act,"
(MCL 324.101 to 324.90106) by adding section 40113c.

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:
SEC. 40113C. NEITHER THE DEPARTMENT NOR THE COMMISSION SHALL PROHIBIT THE USE OF A SMOKELESS POWDER RIFLE TO TAKE GAME IN CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH A BLACK POWDER RIFLE MAY BE USED TO TAKE GAME.
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if you're a michigan hunter, please email these reps and voice your support.  i've read that it has the backing of the NRA, so lets hope for the best..

[Busta]

...smokeless powder muzzleloading has always been legal during general firearms season, just not during muzzleloading season.

harvester,

While that statement is true for the rifle zone during general firearms season while hunting deer, smokeless muzzleloading has never been legal in the shotgun zone for deer hunting in any season, even the general firearms season.

[harvester]

not true at all.  smokeless powder in muzzleloaders is 100% LEGAL  (during general firearms season) in the shotgun zone, and i spoke with 3 different Conservation Officers to confirm it.

I don't know about always, but it has been for the last several years.

[Busta]

I'm not going to get in a argument with you, but call Lansing and ask to talk to a Lt. in the DNR Law Enforcement Division.

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
    In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

[harvester]

I'm not going to get in a argument with you, but call Lansing and ask to talk to a Lt. in the DNR Law Enforcement Division.

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
    In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

there's no argument.  i've already done as you said, and hence, my posting that i've spoken with not one but 3 different officers.  two where LT's in the law division.

maybe you should follow your own advice.

[Busta]

Fair enough, but I had talked to 3 Lt's, 2 in LED (Lt's S & P) in Lansing and 1 Regional LED Supervisor (Lt. B). Guess they changed their minds on what a Black Powder Substitute is, but the Law still states otherwise. I had been bugging them about this since 2003, after a couple years of chiseling away and not getting anywhere, I gave up. Was this just last year that you had talked to them? Must be they got tired of being bombarded with the questions, and knowing it would be a hard thing to enforce. I will call them today!

They sure haven't changed the wording in the Law, or the Hunting and Trapping Guide to reflect that smokeless is a legal Black Powder Substitute in the Shotgun Zone during the Regular Firearm Deer Season while hunting deer.

[harvester]

interesting.. i found your id on another web site that i frequent.. found the very question you asked about smokeless powder in the shotgun zone during general firearms.  found the very response from a known CO on that site that told you it was not legal.  back in august of 03?

surprisingly enough, that very same CO was one of the 3 that informed me that smokeless powder WAS legal in the shotgun zone during general firearms season.  the others were a LT in the Lansing office, as well as a LT in the Livonia office.

only difference is that my question was posed in 05 when i bought my savage.  it was implied to me that it had been that way for some time.  my mistake.

well, nevertheless - seems their stance has changed, regardless of whether the regs reflect it or not.

it truly is a inane restriction, and nearly impossible to enforce.  i can't believe it was ever considered illegal in the shotgun zone - just what do they think shotguns are firing these days?  smokeless powder propelled saboted bullets!  so because the savage is missing the plastic shotshell, its illegal???

Let's hope for the best here, that soon it won't matter whatsoever!

[Busta]

Just got off the phone with a Lt in Lansing, as the Law is written, it is still not legal. As it stands right now, the answer is still "NO". The other 2 Lt's have both retired. He did say for me to call back next week and talk to their "expert", for a more definitive answer, he was off this week. I will try to call him next week and get back to you.

The velocity issue was what concerned them most, but I told him the 3 pellet loads exceeded some of the smokeless loads. We will see, maybe?

I am not against it by any means, I just don't want there to be any question. I still don't own a smokeless muzzleloader.

[harvester]

velocity from 3 pellets can exceed all of the savage published load.  the max load that savage has published is 2,300 fps.  thompson center and knight have published 150 grain loads using 200-250 grain bullets that exceed that by a wide margin.

i guess its all in who you talk to.  amazing there can be so much disparity.  i need to find the email that i had with one of the CO's. the question was explicitly asked - is smokeless powder legal in the shotgun zone during general firearms season, and the answer was unequivocally yes.

[simonkenton]

The experiences y'all have been having tell me one thing:
Game and Fish is not enforcing anti-smokeless laws.
This is something I have been saying for four years, since I bought my Savage. That laws against smokeless are stupid and the Game and Fish guys have more important things to worry about.
I am CERTAINLY NOT advocating that someone break the law.

I know how Game and Fish guys operate, as I used to work with them all the time when I was a Paramedic. There was one Game and Fish warden for the entire county, there are lots of laws, he can only enforce so many, so they go for guys shooting deer at night with lights, hunting out of season, hunting without a license, illegal turkey hunting, etc.

[jehunsberger]

So does anyone know if they the law is amended to allow smokeless powder muzzleloaders, will those of us in the shotgun zone be able to use them during the muzzleloading season?

[Busta]

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HOUSE BILL No. 4554
March 29, 2007, Introduced by Reps. Calley, Stakoe, Hildenbrand, Agema, Opsommer, Hammon and Rick Jones and referred to the Committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources.

A bill to amend 1994 PA 451, entitled
"Natural resources and environmental protection act,"
(MCL 324.101 to 324.90106) by adding section 40113c.

THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ENACT:
SEC. 40113C. NEITHER THE DEPARTMENT NOR THE COMMISSION SHALL PROHIBIT THE USE OF A SMOKELESS POWDER RIFLE TO TAKE GAME IN CIRCUMSTANCES IN WHICH A BLACK POWDER RIFLE MAY BE USED TO TAKE GAME.
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The way that is worded, they could still weasel their way around that and not allow smokeless muzzleloading. They should have specifically stated SMOKELESS POWDER MUZZLELOADING RIFLE, because they could say it means Black Powder Cartridge Center Fire Rifle and Smokeless Center Fire Rifle. Neither would be legal in the Shotgun Zone.

Black Powder Cartridge Rifles are not legal in the Muzzleloading Season, while Black Powder Cartridge Pistols are.

[harvester]

the intent of the law, according to the emails from the representative that sponsored it, is to allow smokeless powder hunting in any situation where black powder is legal.

therefore, yes, if it passes, though it may be re-worded to be more explicit, you will be able to hunt with smokeless powder STATEWIDE, not just the shotgun zone, during general firearms and muzzleloading season.

busta -

i emailed a LT CO that i had contacted a couple of years ago.  he retired this year, but he informed me that it was perfectly legal to use smokeless powder in muzzleloaders, in the shotgun zone, during general firearms season.

simonkenton -

yes, powder enforcement is an undue burden on the CO's.  while no one advocates willingly breaking the law, i suspect should a case like this come to court, the DNR would have a difficult time backing their argument.

 - black powder substitutes are currently legal.
 - common black powder subs (777, pyro, etc)  bear no resemblance, chemically, to black powder.
 - common black powder subs produce far more energy than black powder (15-20% more, by volume).  that point is often ignored.
 - common black powder subs are classified by the department of transportation as smokeless.
 - the only similarity between black powder and subs is that both can be measured by volume.  then again, so can my double base nitrocellulose smokeless AA5744.  though, most smokeless powders are more reliably measured by weight.

given there's no "definition" for what makes a black powder sub, i hardly think the law is enforceable in the current context.  though, i'm quite certain one would get a ticket for hunting with smokeless during muzzleloading season right now,  i just don't think the ticket would stand if someone challenged it.

[Busta]

busta -

i emailed a LT CO that i had contacted a couple of years ago.  he retired this year, but he informed me that it was perfectly legal to use smokeless powder in muzzleloaders, in the shotgun zone, during general firearms season.

harvester,

If it were perfectly legal to use smokeless in the shotgun zone during the general firearms season, then it would also have to be legal statewide during the muzzleloading seasons, as the requirements are the same.
Just read page 9 of the 2006 Michigan Hunting and Trapping Guide, under Muzzleloading Deer Seasons and All Firearm Deer Seasons-Shotgun Zone. (in quotes below)

Your retired LT's, determination will not carry any weight whatsoever. Your fate would be whatever way the challenging CO interprets the law, and what the judge determines to be the law during the event. Not all CO's know and understand all the Laws, but they all know how to write a ticket. I don't leave anything to the judgement of the onsite CO, when it comes to legal issues.

I tried calling the "expert" this morning, left a message on his voice mail. Will let you know if I hear anything.


Read these, the requirements are the same. If it were legal in one, it would also have to be legal during the other as worded. Show me where ANY CO has ever stated that smokeless is legal during the Muzzleloading Deer Season.

Muzzleloading Deer Seasons
During the December muzzleloading seasons, muzzleloading deer hunters can carry afield and use only a muzzleloading rifle, a muzzleloading shotgun, or a blackpowder handgun loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.

All Firearm Deer Seasons - Shotgun Zone
    In the shotgun zone, all hunters afield from November 15-30, and all deer hunters in this zone during other deer seasons, must abide by the following firearm restrictions or use a bow and arrow. Crossbows are legal to use by a person 12 years of age or older during the Nov. 15-30 firearm deer season. Legal firearms are as follows:

A shotgun may have a smooth or rifled barrel and may be of any gauge.
A muzzleloading rifle or black powder handgun must be loaded with black powder or a commercially manufactured black powder substitute.
A conventional (smokeless powder) handgun must be .35 caliber or larger and loaded with straight-walled cartridges and may be single- or multiple-shot but cannot exceed a maximum capacity of nine rounds in the barrel and magazine combined.

[harvester]

I'm not sure what to tell you, busta.

I just got off the phone with an ACTIVE conservation officer for my district.  pm me if you want the name.  suffice it to say that i simply went to the dnr's web site, found my district, and called the contact number listed.

in no uncertain terms, she told me that yes, smokeless powder was legal in the shotgun zone during general firearms season.

she also said that it was currently not legal in muzzleloading season, in any district.

so, i've spoken with enough CO's, not receiving a single "NO" on the question, to satisfy my curiosity, and i'll continue to use smokeless during the general firearms season in the shotgun zone.

by the way, i don't think anyone in the DNR cares - they are simply enforcing laws.  if its made legal, i doubt they will try to resist in any fashion.

this particular CO agreed with my assessment that "CO's had better things to do than concern themselves with propellants.".  In my opinion, she would be in favor of the new bill.

[simonkenton]

I mean, a guy could  have all his 5744 or N110 in quick loaders, and go on about his business.
Hard to imagine a CO making a guy remove his load, and send the powder to the state crime lab for analysis.
Hard to imagine that the state crime lab would even agree to analyze it, if he did. I imagine the state crime lab has more important crimes to solve.

Of course that is just a fictional "what if", I am CERTAINLY NOT advocating that someone break a law.
Smokeless is legal here in NC so I don't have a dog in the fight.

[jehunsberger]

Guys I need a little help.  I emailed the chairman of the Committee on Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources and asked for his support on HB 4554 and below is his reply:

Dear James:
 
Thank you for your e-mail.  The sponsor of the bill has not asked me for a hearing on it and your e-mail is the first contact I've received on the bill.  Can you provide me with more background on this issue and why the change is needed?  What organizations support the bill?  What organizations may be opposed?
 
Sincerely,
 
Joel Sheltrown, Chair
House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation,
and Natural Resources Committee

I am looking for alittle help in gathering info to write a good reply to Rep. Sheltrown.  Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

James