Author Topic: Smith and Wesson compared to Ruger (Read 7608 times)

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #60 on:** June 04, 2007, 03:03:22 PM »

that may be true but it took a rubber hammer to get the cyl to swing out , the only thing may have been a heavy jacket on the sil bullet and an increase in pressure , to that day the gun seemed ok , but anything is possible .

warrior1 · « **Reply #61 on:** June 04, 2007, 03:57:07 PM »

SB ,first of all my statement is not based on some fallacies,the only fallacies involved was how great s&w guns were.i shoot both s&w and ruger with a couple cols and taurus' thrown in.i've got a 25-5 unfired i bought because i wasn't sure my taurus could handle the loads i want to use for hunting.hence the 25-5, it was then i found out smith & wesson learned from their mistake the 25-5.this from the smith rep. then i got a model 29, again a strong handgun,heck it choked on the first loads i had loaded for my super redhawk..
i've also got a 28-2 that won't hold a candle to my gp100or security six. i hope you can see i do have experience with both companies firearms.

S.B. · « **Reply #62 on:** June 04, 2007, 04:36:14 PM »

If the 25-5 is a four inch barrel, I may be interested? Especially, since not satisfied with it. Send some pics to my address in my profile, if you'd like to sell?
You didn't mention the loads you used in the 29, were they the super over powering loads for Rugers only way above SAMMI specs?
And, back off a little, I said originally, I don't have a problem with either brand. I shoot both. I'll shoot anything as long as it's American made. Now you mentioned Tauras, forget these, I want no more to do with this brand.
My $.02 worth.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #63 on:** June 04, 2007, 11:16:34 PM »

Probably more bad n frames here then everywhere else in the country combined. I own proably 10 of them myself and can count proably at least 50 of them that buddys have that ive shot alot and ive never to this day seen one malfuntion that wast the fault of the owner. Like i said i shot one loose. It can be done but to do it your going to have to do some pretty stupid reloading. I can go buy a new porche to and hold it in first gear until it blows up. Probably alot stronger motor then a ford but if you abuse it like it wasnt designed to be it will fail. I still have to chuckle at what some of you are trying to preach. Your trying to tell me that you need a ruger to shoot these giant loads out of. FOR WHAT!! What have you shot that you need them for? Why pay money for a 44 mag that your intent on shooting 300s are 1500 fps out of when you can buy a 454 that will do it idleing. If you have a loading mentality like that PLEASE dont buy a smith. The quality they put into one would be wasted on an idiot that wont apprecitate it anyway. I still havent heard one story of a 29 here in this post that used factory level ammo or ammo that the reloading books thinks is safe that failed. Just guns that guys who think they know more then the men who built them or the guys that put in the time and efford to help you to load safely by actually testing ammo and writing a loading manual do. If i can teach a new handgunner or handgun loader one lesson and have it stick it is that your being absolutely foolish hotrodding a handgun. Your risking your safety and the safety of anyone standing near you. Your causing unessisary wear and tear on your gun and your gaining so little in actual effectiveness on game as to be considered rediculous. If you can show me some solid proof that a cast bullet at 1500 fps is more deadly then the same a 1200 fps ill give you a gun!! I dont use them but the same can be said for jacketed bullets. None of the handgun bullets other then the ones specifically designed for the 454 are made to hold up at 1500 fps. So why the hell are your pushing your gun to max pressure and beyond anyway!! Before anyone destroys another nice 29 or 25 PLEASE give me a call. Ill buy you a brand new superblackhawk and trade even up.

OLDHandgunner · « **Reply #64 on:** June 05, 2007, 02:28:49 AM »

From my post on April 10th. This is a no win topic. If you have been shooting long enough, you will have heard some story about someone you has had a problem with a S&W, Ruger or whatever they owned. Back in my early days of shooting it was fun to load everything to the max. Then show everyone that you had a real MAGNUM. Back then not many people owned or hunted with handguns. Then I owned a Old Model Blackhawk 357 Mag & a S&W 44 Mag Model 29-2 both in 6 1/2". We shot alot of full house magnums back then. My loads were mostly with H-110 because 2400 was to dirty, but very accurate. I personally never had any problems with my guns but I didn't push the loads past max loads like a few of the guys did. My favorite load of 21.0 to 22.0 grs of H-110 with 250gr. cast w/gas check in the 44 Mag was all I could handle & 15.0 grs of H-110 with a 158gr cast w/ gas check in the 357 Mag. For hunting 23.0 to 24.0grs of H-110 with 240 JHP in the 44 Mag & 17.0 grs of H-110 with a 140 JHP in the 357 Mag. After 1000's of rounds through these 2 guns over the years I have semi-retired them to lighter use with not so heavy loads. Now 35-40 yrs later and alot more guns, my loading priority has changed from who has the baddest Mag to what shoots the best in each gun.
So the debate goes on S&W or Ruger, Ford or Chevy!!
HAVE FUN GUYS it makes good reading.

S.B. · « **Reply #65 on:** June 05, 2007, 03:42:58 AM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 04, 2007, 02:16:35 PM

I neither had heard of a S&W frame stretching , not sure that was the best term to use , but that is what the gunsmith used to describe it , what happened was the bullet. pin would not line up as it should , the frame was out of alignment , and to get the gun to lock the cyl. in place took alot of force , the new pin didn't help ! the hole where the bolt came thru. was messed up also ! the gunsmith sent it back to S&W when it came back it would shoot but it spit a little out the cyl. bbl. gap and accuracy was not typical S&W . i was charged shipping only and that was by the gunsmith .
Now i in no way blame S&W in fact carry one everyday ! just think ruger is stronger , will admit S&W may be the better balance of power and strength in a carry 44 mag. ! ruger on the other hand could probably be used as a crow bar with no ill effect

Rereading your post, my theory is: I would think the crane was out of alignment (or only partially engaged, before you shot these loads(wouldn't let the gun lock up properly). Commonly happens with a novice gangster slapping the cylinder closed.
When the rounds went off, with the crane(cylinder) out of alignment, allowing it to bend more, plus bending other areas critical to safe shooting, even more with each shot? Hence, harder to cock the hammer with each shot.
This is just my thoughts on what was going on with your particular gun in this situation.
And so, the above MAX ammo and a defective gun combined to cause this problem.
Hope I've made my thoughts clear. My $.02?
Was the gun new or used when you bought it? How many previous rounds did you personally have through the gun?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #66 on:** June 05, 2007, 04:27:16 AM »

I can assure you i don't slap cyl. shut or spin it ! the gun was new , less than 100 rounds !
you may have something ,

warrior1 · « **Reply #67 on:** June 05, 2007, 05:27:52 AM »

first of all, before making blanket statements get to know what the other shooter is shooting.
in all my guns they wiill see max loads as the season draws nearer. however, they will never see anything
above the max. second, i will experiment with 300 grs. once in awhile,but as normal course i'll use 250 or 255s in the 45, 240grs in the 44,and 158grs in the 357.

as far as which brand ,if i wanted pretty i'd buy pretty,if i want strength i buy ruger.it's that simple.

S.B. · « **Reply #68 on:** June 05, 2007, 05:39:28 AM »

warrior1, and where does the foriegn made Taurus' fit into your thinking? By the way, I don't understand your last post, what blanket statement did I make? If your refering to my dislike of the Taurus brand, I have some experiences, I'd like to tell you about but, this is a discussion about the two American revolvers.
Have a nice day.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #69 on:** June 05, 2007, 06:37:47 AM »

your making blanket statements yourself here. Lets start my last post on this subject by saying a 629 is far from week. It is proof tested at the factory at pressure levels twice what the loading manuals are giving you. It has to be in this day of sue happy people. To me anyone that loads over what a loading manual says is safe is an idiot anyway. To say that if i want stenght ill buy a ruger is comical. Compare apples to apples here. An N frame is about the size of a gp100. If you want to compare a redhawk try comparing a redhawk to a X frame smith. Im not a fan of the X frames but a stouter DA gun was never made. The ballistics of a 500 smith will make any factory ruger look week in the knees. I own 500 and 475 linebaughs and know what major work it takes to get a ruger to hold up to them and there running substainaly less pressure even at full power then a smith 500 or 460 is. Now i suppose someone is going to say thats not a fair comparision because the smith is a bigger gun. Well last time i looked a redhawk was quite a bit bigger then a 629. ITs like saying your 1/2 ton with a v8 truck will haul more then a 1/2 ton with a V6. Of course it will. But if all a guy needs to haul is a 1/2 ton what have you gained other then driving around a truck that uses more fuel . If you really need to haul more step up to a 3/4 ton.If you think you need to have more power for handgun hunting then a factory 44 mag load provides its time to step up to a bigger caliber and not time to strap a bottle of nitrous on what you have to try to make it something it isnt. You can say all you want about the strenght of rugers. Like ive said your preaching to the choir here as i do own a couple of them. But i can gurantee you one thing. IT can be broke and it can be wore out and it can be blown up just like any other gun out there if you get stupid.

Quote from: warrior1 on June 05, 2007, 05:27:52 AM

first of all, before making blanket statements get to know what the other shooter is shooting.
in all my guns they wiill see max loads as the season draws nearer. however, they will never see anything
above the max. second, i will experiment with 300 grs. once in awhile,but as normal course i'll use 250 or 255s in the 45, 240grs in the 44,and 158grs in the 357.

as far as which brand ,if i wanted pretty i'd buy pretty,if i want strength i buy ruger.it's that simple.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #70 on:** June 05, 2007, 07:13:34 AM »

With all due respect as with the gun the book also has a large margin of safety built in , some hand loaders seem to have both the equipment and knowledge to work up their own loads , it is not for the unskilled , but it is done with complete success in many cases ( no pun intended ) if it were not so then all the wildcats would never have been invented !
when you compare a S&W to a Ruger caliber to caliber , Ruger seems to have a stronger gun , if you would rather call it a broader safety margin then call it that but it is there , i do not have a pressure chart for the S&W 50 , but how much more will it take than a super redhawk ? its not the hole in the bbl its the pressure generated that takes a toll on both the gun and case not to mention shooter ! the jump from 44 mag. to 454 is a broad one some people wanted something in between , the 44 offered a stronger cyl than the 45 ( Kieth proved that ) so a stiff load in a 44 gave the experimenter that option , and the Ruger seen to tolerate it better !
I said earlier the S&W is a great gun with factory loads , the Ruger is strong enough to take a little more ! nither are bad choices if you know your needs and skills !

warrior1 · « **Reply #71 on:** June 05, 2007, 12:57:13 PM »

well put shootall.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #72 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:23:08 AM »

Not to many of us can afford pressure testing equiptment and id about be more people then not here dont even own a chronograph. To make a statement in print that its safe to go above what a loading manual says is not good advice. IF theres a safety margin you have no clue what it is and what about the guy that believes that and like you has a defective gun and doesnt realize it. Speer,hornady,sierra,hodgdons and the rest of them have invested alot of time and money into testing loads to insure that people dont get hurt. I have quite a bit of experince handloading. As much as probably anyone here, and im surely not going to second guess them especially when im not gaining a thing in the field doing it anyway. Handguns arent rifles and you have to get the rifle metality out of your handgun loading. It just isnt worth trying to squeeze that last fps out of a handgun.

OLDHandgunner · « **Reply #73 on:** June 06, 2007, 04:13:41 PM »

I agree with Lloyd. I've been loading for 40 yrs. These manuals are put out for a reason. To give us reloaders some guide lines to go by. These companys have tested these loads with the equipment that most of us couldn't afford or most of us wouldn't know how to use anyways. It is not our job to be testing S&W's & Rugers to see how much abuse they will take before it malfunctions or someone gets hurt. In all the thousands of magnum load I have reloaded over the years in both 357's & 44's and in both S&W and Rugers it is not the full house loads that shoot the best most of the time. I would never go over the max loads that are listed in these manuals. WHAT'S THE POINT of pushing the envelope and blowing up a gun or maybe getting hurt. I reload to get the best accuracy from my handguns with whatever kind of bullet that I will be using for hunting or target shooting.
For you older shooters out there remember when Super-Vel 44 Mag ammo came out. Two of my shooting buddys had Ruger 44's and used this ammo alot. This stuff was HOT. Both of there 44's got damaged from shooting this hot ammo. Along with splitting open the webs of there hands everytime they shot it. FOR WHAT!!!! I stayed with my 21.0 grs of H-110 with my 245 gr cast bullets. I'm still shooting my same guns that I had back then and they have had several different 44's since then. Some people just never learn.
I guess I'm just from the old school. But I still can see with both eyes, have all my fingers & still shooting the same guns that I've had for 30-40 years.

PS I'm still having fun.

S.B. · « **Reply #74 on:** June 06, 2007, 05:37:47 PM »

Good point, well put.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #75 on:** June 07, 2007, 12:38:51 AM »

very well said oldhandgunner!!

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #76 on:** June 07, 2007, 12:54:24 AM »

OLDHandgunner, well said and no BS involved. The only thing some one proves when they over load a gun is just how stupid they are.

S.B. · « **Reply #77 on:** June 23, 2007, 04:51:48 PM »

Quote from: SHOOTALL on June 04, 2007, 01:32:49 AM

S.B. then check out the redhawks !
And for the record , i shot 6 rounds in a 629DX , loads that are max for the ruger in a loading man. and the cyl. locked up ,
gun was ruined , frame was streached , but the cyl didn't blow up !

I just got a 5&1/2" Redhawk this week and the cylinder is indeed larger but, why would someone want to carry this thing all day?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #78 on:** June 25, 2007, 03:32:10 AM »

because it is easier to tote than a rifle ! leaves hands free to work with dogs ! doesn't get tangled in briar's and vines !
i would consider it a hunting gun not a self defense gun ! unless in bear country !

454Puma · « **Reply #79 on:** July 20, 2007, 03:52:56 PM »

OLDHandgunner

Yes we were all young once- but as we get on in years we figure out max isn't always better! When I got my 454 Casull SRH I did the max thing for awhile until I figured out why not too. It's nice to know you can go to that level of power when needed. but that don't mean you have to stay there! That 454 can and does have the power to take anything I'll ever hunt but I can also take it down to plinking level just for fun shooting!

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #80 on:** July 24, 2007, 01:46:47 AM »

Redhawk1, if that was true we would not have either the .357 mag. or the .44 rem.mag. or many of the other wildcats that became factory loads , It is arrogant to call the likes of Kieth stupid or the many other men who stretched the power of our guns to new limits !
Some have a better understanding of the strength of the guns and are comfortable extending the power of some rounds in them . the truth of the matter the average hand loader has better ways to see pressure increase than the factories did at the turn of the century ( last century ) ! So to call them stupid because YOU feel uncomfortable being out front with reguard to load development is just plain BS !
That being said the Ruger is a better platform for this type work !

S.B. · « **Reply #81 on:** July 24, 2007, 05:53:06 AM »

SHOOTALL, I must of missed something here? The platform for the .357(D.B. Wesson) was the prewar S&W N frame and basically, the same gun was used as the platform for the .44 magnum(Elmer Keith and others), wasn't it? Now, if some unknown gun manufacturer was to come up with a 10 pound revolver on wheels, for convenience, carry purposes, and chamber it in either of these magnums, I think it safe to say, it could be loaded to velocities higher, and with stand higher pressures, than we think today? Even if these loads weren't needed to reliably take game animals.
Big isn't always better if you have to carry it all day.
I hope I haven't started another flame war here, just my $.02? Your statements in your last post seem very volatile.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #82 on:** July 25, 2007, 04:35:57 AM »

SB the 44mag came out in 1955 , the gun you refer to was a 44spl. size framed gun ! today it would be a mod. 28 or 27 !
that being said no one knew of the 44mag when Keith was doing his work or used guns treated to take 44mag. press.
If you have time check out some loading manuals , in particular check the section on for Ruger and T.C. guns only , if the S&W was as strong they would have been included ! IMHO

warrior1 · « **Reply #83 on:** July 25, 2007, 06:39:34 AM »

well the good thing i see here is just about every responder is passionate about their revolvers. be it ruger ,s&w,
taurus, freedom arms etc., if it performs for you ,isn't that what really matters in the long run.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #84 on:** July 25, 2007, 07:25:34 AM »

I have both and like and enjoy both , also enjoy the added power sometimes , a bit more than a 45 colt and less than a 454 ! the Ruger does this well , would not do it in the S&W it was not made to do it and i would not want to break a nice gun !
by the way i did not intend to sound out of line , but if no one experimented and pushed the limit few if any new rounds would have been developed ! Since most new rounds were wildcats at one time , developed by re-loaders like you and I !
the 25-06 , 270 ,44mag. 243 , to name a few started life as a wildcat !
I see the point of new , unskilled or re loaders lacking the knowledge not to attempt pushing the limits , but i can't for the life of me understand why someone with the knowledge , experience and tools should not be able to develop new rounds . And receive credit for such ! With computer programs available today most of the guess work is over before the first round is fired !
and for the record i have never developed a new round , nor exceeded loads that were either printed in a reloading book or by someone who could be trusted ! I have how ever switched components after research suggested the mix should be safe !
that being said give credit to the way we gain new rounds and to those who do the work to give them to us !

S.B. · « **Reply #85 on:** July 25, 2007, 11:05:02 AM »

SHOOTALL, a N frame in 1935 is a N frame in 1955 and a N frame in 2006, all the same size. Maybe your talking heat treatment differneces?

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #86 on:** July 25, 2007, 11:18:30 AM »

yep !

S.B. · « **Reply #87 on:** July 25, 2007, 12:09:06 PM »

24, 27, 28, 57, 29 all the same frame size.

SHOOTALL · « **Reply #88 on:** July 25, 2007, 12:13:52 PM »

so you would take a 44 spl. triple lock S&W and feel safe reaming the chambers and shooting full house 44mag. loads in it ? and other than collector value nothing would be hurt ?

S.B. · « **Reply #89 on:** July 28, 2007, 03:45:06 PM »

Your putting words in my mouth, now? I said heat treatment was the difference, didn't I? And NO I wouldn't rechamber a fine old classic into something that could destroy the collector value.