100 gr VS 150gr Triple 7 powder

[northern hunter]

Hey guys finaly went out and shot my 50 cal encore today,had fun,shot for 3 hours.
I tried 777 loose from 90gr to 130 gr,with 180 gr xtp and 240 gr xtp and 300gr Hornady sst.My rifle didnt like the 180's but put the 240 into a 3 shot group of 2 1/2 at 100 yards.It liked the 300 gr,2 inch group with 110grains of 777.
Then I tried the triple 7 pellets.
2- 50gr. pellets and the 240's went into groups of 1.5 to 1.75,the 300 gr. sst's were amazing 1 inch to 1.5 for 3 shots.
Then tried same bullets but with 3 pellets and the best group for the 240's were 2.3 inches and the 300 opened up to 2 1/2 to 3 inches.
So my question is this shoud I give up some acuracy for more power and speed or just stick with the 100 gr loads.
I will use my encore this fall for bear,moose and deer,shots could be from 10 yards to 200.
So what do you all recomend.
Shoot once and carry a sharp knife

[flintlock]

I look at it this way...The reason for more powder is to flatten out the trajectory for longer range shots...If adding more powder increases your group size enough to make that long range shot iffy then why do it???

I also think that 200 shots are mighty optimistic with a muzzleloader in most cases, especially when you are talking about bears and moose, which need quite a bit of energy to kill efficiently...

I use 90 grains of FF or Pyrodex R-S in my Knight Disc...Sighted in 2 1/2 inches high at 100 yards, I'm
2 1/2 low at 150...Groups at 150 run about 3 inches, this combo has plenty of power for deer.

[Redhawk1]

For loose triple7 powder don't go over 120 gr. that is equivalent to 150 gr. of pellets which is the max for the Encore. 

In one of my Encores I use 90 gr. of loose triple7 with a 195 gr. bullet.
In the other Encore I use 120 gr. of loose triple7 with a 250 gr. bullet.
Both loads get me 1 inch groups at 100 yards.  If I am going to be shooting long range I use my 120 gr. load and the 250 gr. bullet. This is the gun I shoot the most and it is in the field with me almost 90% of the time. 

[northern hunter]

I shoud of stated that bear would be over bait and 40 yard shots,deer from tree stands and not over 100 yards any were we hunt,but moose could be out to 200 or more so that was why I was looking at the 150 gr loads,for more power and flater shooting.
Thanks for the info on loose 777 powder.3 pellets and the 300 gr sst's kicked more then the loose powder at 120gr.with the same bullet,to me anyway's
happy shooting.

ps I almost got stuck driveing into the range as there's still a foot of snow in the bush,hope its gone soon.

[AndyHass]

If you're thinking 200 yds, use the most accurate load.  If that load is not powerful enough for the game in question at 200 yds, then DON'T shoot 200 yds.  Personally, I wouldn't shoot 200 yds with a load grouping worse than 1.5 inches at 100.

If you are shooting bear at 40 yds over bait, I'd go 150 gr as long as the groups at 100 are 2.5 inches...at 40 yds you'll make good shots with more power.

Power doesn't matter if getting it makes you miss the vitals.

[Redhawk1]

AndyHass, you are talking 150 gr. of pellets not loose triple7, right??

[AndyHass]

Pellets.  Loose powder is 15% more powerful by volume than BP or Pyrodex, so since guns are currently rated to 150gr BP or Pyrodex the max 777 load with loose powder is 127.5 grains.  777 pellets are calibrated to the equivalent Pyrodex charge to avoid people over-charging.

[Redhawk1]

Pellets.  Loose powder is 15% more powerful by volume than BP or Pyrodex, so since guns are currently rated to 150gr BP or Pyrodex the max 777 load with loose powder is 127.5 grains.  777 pellets are calibrated to the equivalent Pyrodex charge to avoid people over-charging.

I still go by the 120 gr. of loose equals 150 gr. of pellets in triple7.  We are talking 120 gr. by volume not by a measured weight.

[AndyHass]

Nowhere in my post is "by weight" either written or implied.   

15% difference is the number that is given, if you want to round down to 120 grains that's fine, safer than rounding up.  Reducing a 150 grain charge by 15% yields 127.5 grains.  The only way to test this would be over a chrono.

[northern hunter]

Thanks guys, I cant get out for another 2 weeks but when I do I will bring my chronograph with me and will see what the diference is in fps for the diferent loads uesing loose and pellets.
Will let you all know.

[Redhawk1]

Nowhere in my post is "by weight" either written or implied.   

15% difference is the number that is given, if you want to round down to 120 grains that's fine, safer than rounding up.  Reducing a 150 grain charge by 15% yields 127.5 grains.  The only way to test this would be over a chrono.

I did not imply anything, I am just stating that 120 gr. of loose triple7 is considered MAX for the Encore. NOT 127.5. ALSO you can't measure 127.5 by a volume meter now can you?  This is the only point I am trying to make here. 

northern hunter , let us know how you make out. 

[simonkenton]

A  load of 110 gr of 777 and a 300 grain slug is a very powerful load. I wouldn't hesitate to take on a black bear at 40 yards with that load.
Since it is more accurate, I would stick with that load for the longer range shots.
I bet you are way above 2,000 foot pounds with that powerful load. That big slug will carry more energy downrange than a smaller slug would.
The 300 SST is a good game getter, so you are all set.

[AndyHass]

Nowhere in my post is "by weight" either written or implied.   

15% difference is the number that is given, if you want to round down to 120 grains that's fine, safer than rounding up.  Reducing a 150 grain charge by 15% yields 127.5 grains.  The only way to test this would be over a chrono.

I did not imply anything, I am just stating that 120 gr. of loose triple7 is considered MAX for the Encore. NOT 127.5. ALSO you can't measure 127.5 by a volume meter now can you?  This is the only point I am trying to make here. 

northern hunter , let us know how you make out. 

You brought weight into the picture, which was never mentioned in my post.  That confused the issue.
Every volume measurement is an estimate.  You were implying the max load was 120; I was pointing out that the conversion factor I have seen published widely is 15% and, technically, that yields 127.5gr regardless of the precision of a volumetric measure.  You can't tell me you're measuring 120 with any more precision, there'll be variation depending on how you pack the charge in the measure. 
If you have seen published that it is actually 120gr specifically for the Encore, I would be interested in reading about it. 
Quite honestly, it's a little silly to debate the point given the safety margin in the guns and how they function.  If someone shoots a heavy conical over 120gr, they're probably subjecting the gun to more pressure than someone shooting 127.5gr under a 200gr bullet.

[Redhawk1]

OK AndyHass, forget about the weight issue, seeings how you are hung up on it.

But the 15% you are talking about is right. But some of use have weighed 3 triple7 pellets and also weighed loose triple7 pellets and 120 is the lucky number as a volume to weight measurement.

So lets drop it and move on. 

[AndyHass]

OK AndyHass, forget about the weight issue, seeings how you are hung up on it.

But the 15% you are talking about is right. But some of use have weighed 3 triple7 pellets and also weighed loose triple7 pellets and 120 is the lucky number as a volume to weight measurement.

So lets drop it and move on. 

I wouldn't weigh pellets and try to figure out what is going on.  The pellets are calibrated to produce the same power as 50gr loose Pyrodex by volume, even though they are 777 pellets.  Pellets don't necessarily burn equivalently to loose, so I wouldn't try to compare the two.

I'm not hung up on the weight issue, I'm just wondering how it came into this thread to begin with.

[kudzu]

I have allways gotten better results from loose powder over pellets. I also started weighing out my powder by WEIGHT instead of volume and cut group size from around 1 1/2'' to < .75.  With Pyrodex 115 gr by vol. = 80gr by weight.  A little more hassle but well worth it.
If you decide to try this method, measure out about 6-8 loads by vol, then weight out for average. You will be very suprized at the differance weights with the vol. loads.
You try to do everything the same but "BY WEIGHT" is much more consistent.


AS to original post, I would stick to loose powder and let the gun tell ya which "handload" to use. you can fine tune a lot better with loose than by jumping 50grs up and down with pellets. Most likely you will find a accurate load between the 100 and 150 (vol.) loads. Then you can have the best of both worlds. ACCURACY and POWER.

good luck,DM