Author Topic: 45-70 Loads (Read 1028 times)

enj13 · « **on:** April 08, 2007, 07:35:40 AM »

I have a new Buffalo Classic that I haven't loaded for yet. NEF liturature seems to indicate that a new BC would be able to handle Ruger loads safely, but dosen't come right out and say it. Probably refuse to use the word "ruger" in their own advertising. Does anyone know where it is stated that the BC can use the top loads?

Norm

Mac11700 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2007, 07:40:56 AM »

It's not stated anywhere where any Handi rifle can use top end Ruger data...

Mac

Sourdough · « **Reply #2 on:** April 08, 2007, 08:06:27 AM »

Go to your load manuals, there is a middle load for lever guns. Those are the loads I have always been told are correct for the Handi's. The high loads are for Rugers, Sakos, and other bolt guns.

If you should try these higher loads in your BC, be aware we won't send flowers.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** April 08, 2007, 08:49:27 AM »

Since the Handi is chambered in 500S&W and the BC uses the same SB2 frame, that should give you an idea of what H&R considers safe pressure levels for the SB2 frame. Your shoulder and body will probably tell you differently, tho!!

You can also give em a call and ask em!! (866)776-9292 toll free.

Tim

vinpar092 · « **Reply #4 on:** April 08, 2007, 01:47:55 PM »

Tim I already call and they told me upper lever gun loads. I shot a gentleman's .45-70 at the range yesterday and didn't do anything but get me more FIRED UP!!!! I'm ordering my dies and a few things next week while I reestablish my gun fund for the new barrel. A 500 S&W at 400 grain is 49,000-50,000psi and a .45-70 modern load is around 60,000psi. Hodgdon states loads 350 grain of H4198 at 56.0 grains to be 60,000psi at around 2300fps (modern) and Levergun 350 grain H4198 at 54.0 grains to be 2191fps at 50,000psi. I don't know about you but 10,000 psi for 100fps isn't worth it.
vince

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** April 08, 2007, 02:39:29 PM »

You can shoot whatever you feel comfortable with, I have three 45-70 H&Rs, 2 Handis and a BC, plus a 45-120 BC, I shoot a heavy levergun load of 300gr Nosler partitions at 2425fps in the Handi and 2450fps in the BC, I guarantee you won't like the recoil of any Ruger level load in a Handi or a BC without some recoil abatement, even with a Limbsaver recoil pad, a Past magnum shoulder pad and 2lbs or lead or a 1lb mercury recoil reducer in the stock, recoil is stout, in an unadulterated stock, you're not gonna enjoy it, can you say detached retina level recoil!!

Tim

tanoose · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2007, 04:03:14 PM »

Tim didn't you install a Mercury recoil suppressor in one of those 45/70's, how did it work do you feel much of a difference ?

vinpar092 · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2007, 04:10:39 PM »

The .45-70 I shot at the range was a 405 grain at around 1700 fps from a real light Browning lever gun with no recoil pad. I couldn't imagine shooting it at 2000 fps. But I'm a little recoil sensitive. Hopefully I'll break myself of that.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2007, 04:18:18 PM »

Tanoose, yes I did, in a .45-70 Handi and just lately used it in the .500S&W with 440gr Cast Performance at 1700-1800fps, recoil is stout, but very manageable from the bench with a Limbsaver added too, I rate the MRR better than 2lbs of dead weight.

Tim

Stan in SC · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2007, 11:45:30 PM »

Please understand that I am not knocking the original poster here but this thread raised a question in my mind that might just be in place here.I see so many people who discover a caliber or discover reloading and the first thing that comes to their mind is "How hot can I load it?".OK, in a lot of cases faster is better.BUT....not always.
I've seen loads that were so fast that they would pass right thru an animal without allowing the bullet time to mushroom properly.
Some loads are much too fast to allow the rifle to properly stabilize the bullet in it's flight down the bore thereby sacrificing accuracy for speed.
There are many loads,especially in the 45/70 caliber,that will make you a candidate for a chiropractor or worse due to their excessive recoil.
My take on the person who instantly wants to know how fast or hot hot can I load it is that they are wanting max performance without taking into consideration all of the ramifications of what that extra bit of loading is going to do or not do.Kinda like jumping into a strange auto and flooring the accelerator without checking to see if it had any brakes.The quest for max performance is good and the pursuit of it is worthy.The people who seek it are what makes our hobby continually better.
Just bear in mind that maximum performance is NOT synonymous with maximum speed and this includes what limits your firearm can reasonably stand as well as the best performance of your projectile in it's flight.

Stan

edgemark · « **Reply #10 on:** April 09, 2007, 02:31:36 AM »

Quote from: Stan in SC on April 08, 2007, 11:45:30 PM

SNIP

I've seen loads that were so fast that they would pass right thru an animal without allowing the bullet time to mushroom properly.
Some loads are much too fast to allow the rifle to properly stabilize the bullet in it's flight down the bore thereby sacrificing accuracy for speed.

SNIP

Hmmm, I admit that I like a flat shooting rifle, but I am intrigued by your statements about a bullet going too fast to expand. This would seem to be contrary to physics, generally when a bullet impacts at a velocity that is substantially above its design velocity it will expand too violently and tends to act like a varmint bullet. Can you give some basis for your views?

The other question I have concerns stabilization of the bullet. Are you describing a copper jacketed bullet, or are you talking about soft lead bullets that can't grip the lands?

edge.

Freightman · « **Reply #11 on:** April 09, 2007, 05:47:11 AM »

When you get old and beat up as I am you do not ask how hot but how far can you load down and keep it on paper at 100 yds. Love sr 4759 as it is able to be down loaded to an enjoyable level.

45/70fan · « **Reply #12 on:** April 09, 2007, 05:55:54 AM »

everybody should have one caliber that rattles your teeth

James B · « **Reply #13 on:** April 09, 2007, 06:28:45 AM »

There is some science that backs up Stans opinion on velocity. I can't recall where I found in now but I read some good article's on what they call Bullet Hang Time. This is simply the time that the bullet stays in the animal and shows why calibers like the 308 and 6.5x55 do such a good job of killing game. On another point Garret has done studies that show with hard cast bullet the 45-70 will out penetrate the 458 Win Mag and 460 Weatherby mag by up to 50 percent. Velocities of 1600-1900 give optimum penetration with hard cast bullets. The lower velocity stops deformation of the bullet nose and allows it to continue on a straight path which enhances penetration.

edgemark · « **Reply #14 on:** April 09, 2007, 06:49:24 AM »

James B, I think that you are making my point!
In general the less a bullet deforms the greater the penetration, not the other way around. IMO, if you look at the wound channel from the 458 win mag and the 45-70 with a LBT bullet you will see a MUCH wider wound from the 458, especially in the beginning as the bullet sheds energy.
Clearly, a solid bullet that does NOT deform or tumble will penetrate further the faster you shoot it assuming it is shot through the same medium. A deforming bullet is a totally different animal in that regard.
IMO, Compare the penetration of a Nosler Partition to a non bonded bullet of the same profile/caliber and weight with an impact above 2,500 fps and the Partition will out penetrate the other 99 out of 100 times because it will not disintegrate. It will almost always lose the front core, but the expansion will almost stop whereas the standard bullet will very often become a bunch of lead and a separate jacket in many pieces ( depending on caliber).

edge.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 09, 2007, 07:52:47 AM »

Edgemark:

Your example of the Nosler Partition is very valid...but you don't have to run it up that level to get similar penetration...at least from my experiences with it in the 45-70. 2400fps with it will suffice

Mac

edgemark · « **Reply #16 on:** April 09, 2007, 08:04:20 AM »

Mac11700, agreed

I only used that velocity because it is above the intended impact velocity for about 90% of all big game bullets. Most bullets prefer 1800-2000 for an ideal compromise between expansion and penetration. I want a bullet/rifle combo that can perform from 20 yards as well as at 250 yards and that is asking a lot.

edge.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 09, 2007, 08:15:45 AM »

The 300 grain Partition is unlike the majority of .458 bullets...It's working velocity is good down to 700-800fps...and in well excess of 2400...Run the numbers in Point Blank and you'll see that it is the optimum bullet for your needs with the 45-70...and why I have been sold on them for many years...The accuracy you can achieve with them is outstanding..They are expesive..but bullet cost isn't a concern of mine when hunting...While not shot in a Handi..but my CVA...this bullet does all that I could expect from a 45-70...http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,115587.0.html

Also with wide meplats of the cast bullets...you will have a larger permanent wound cavity..not the temporary cavity...this temporary cavity is what helps to disrupts the CNS ..and why folks like to use them because of rupturing blood vessels well away from the entrance hole...this is also what causes a lot of blood shot meat,depending on the bullet location of course,it's also why folks say you can "eat right up to the bullet hole" using good cast bullets...This may not be the best scenario when it comes to critters that bite back using expanding bullets ( Garret didn't think so ) ...but for most edible ungulates drops them quicker and does a outstanding job...I prefer jacketed bullets over cast bullets for normal hunting for this reason...and have a 405 Cast Performance load if needed...

Mac

edgemark · « **Reply #18 on:** April 09, 2007, 08:37:59 AM »

You had some pretty impressive groups with that CVA rifle

What was the approximate load of H4198 to get 2400 fps.

Have you had any similar results with a Handi and those loads?

thanks,

edge.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** April 09, 2007, 08:48:10 AM »

Edge, I have had the same kind of accuracy in my 45-70 Ulta using Mac's H4198 load, start at 50gr and work up using Rem nickel brass, 9½ primers, crimped at the top of the cannelure with a Lee FCD, velocity is 2425fps.

Tim

Mac11700 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 09, 2007, 07:37:37 PM »

Quote from: edgemark on April 09, 2007, 08:37:59 AM

You had some pretty impressive groups with that CVA rifle

What was the approximate load of H4198 to get 2400 fps.

Have you had any similar results with a Handi and those loads?

thanks,

edge.

I use a Lyman "M" die for belling (much easier on the nickel case mouths) and a Lee factory crimp die set to it's fullest...Start low slowly work your way up...but be prepared...If shooting this load out of a Handi without adding weight to the stock and a soft cheek piece..it will kick like a Missouri mule...

I got MOA with it out of my Handi..but..not as good at 200 yards..I didn't put that many rounds thru it before selling it either so I might have got it down better than I did with a little more time with it...My 1895 XLR will get almost as good of groups...but not quite..but it too isn't as comfortable to shoot as the Elite and like the Handi has a-lot of muzzle climb off the bench....

Mac

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** April 10, 2007, 03:37:19 AM »

Mac loaded some of these for me last fall for my XLR. The accuracy, vel, std. dev. & everything in regards to ballistics is as stated.

But the biggie is what happens when the bullet hits the game animal. I have shot more than my share of Whitetails & with alot of rounds. I took a decent Ozark 4x4 with this load last fall & it was devastating to say the least. This is a great load in an area such as where I took this Deer, because Bear & Hogs are in the same area & all are in trouble with this load.