bullet choice for black bear-45 colt or 44 mag

[Jaydub in Wi]

For black bear hunting over bait with a 44 or 45 colt, would a hard cast lbt bullet be best? The reason I ask is I thought someone on the net suggested a standard jhp and wait for a broadside shot. I'm leaning towards a lbt bullet or maybe a speer sp 300 gr. The range would be 25 yds or less. Thank you

[Lloyd Smale]

A hard cast bullet with a good metplat is never a mistake in a handgun. The jacketed would work for what your doing too but id personaly take the hardcast anyday.

[Mikey]

I will agree with Lloyd on thisone.  A good hardcast slug with a large metplat is always a good idea in a handgun.  It has also been said that, at least in 44 mag, a 240 gn jsp or jhp gets their attention pretty quickly from broadside shots but that is like waiting for the bear to offer one up for you.  That doesn't always happen, so I would be inclined to use the heavier hardcast slug with the large metplat.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[Redhawk1]

I'll be the third to say use a hard cast flat nose bullet. 

[Jaydub in Wi]

That's what I was thinking guys. I might be wrong but I thought JJ Hack suggested using jhps . I' ll use a 300 gr wfn in the 45 or maybe take the 44 loaded with 280 gr wfns. Both loaded over H 110. Thanks again

[Redhawk1]

What I don't like about the jacketed bullets is some times the lack of penetration. With the hard cast, I know I will get good penetration and bone crushing results.

[S.B.]

That's what I was thinking guys. I might be wrong but I thought JJ Hack suggested using jhps . I' ll use a 300 gr wfn in the 45 or maybe take the 44 loaded with 280 gr wfns. Both loaded over H 110. Thanks again

What I think the compete statement from JJHack was that the 240gr. JHP would cause was for the bear(black) to react like a bee had stung him and giving the shooter more time to put more rounds into the bear and not be thinking of mounting a charge, not that the JHP was the quickest killer of bears or deepest penetrator of bears?
I agree with the other responders here about the hard cast flat nosed slug being the best choice for bears. I have no experience with the 300 choice but, have a ton of experience with the Lyman 429421 240 SWC bullets, I've casted this one since I bought my first .44 Mag., probably 30 years ago.

[Del]

Can't go wrong w/a good hard cast bullet, especially LBT's!!  Complete bone crunching penetration & two holes to help w/a good blood trail is a good idea w/bears. 

A friend of mine who has been a .44 mag fan for 30 years claims you don't have to use 300 grn or bigger bullets, he's had great results using standard 240 grn hard cast LSWC's - getting full penetration on elk & moose even when center punching both front shoulders!!

Bottom line, I would recommend a bullet that will completely penetrate & make 2 holes no matter what angle the shot is.  At the same time I wouldn't pass up a shot at a black bear because all I had in my gun was 240 JHP!  One bullet I don't like is the Hornady 265 grn JSP, I believe it was designed for the .444 Marlin velocities & the nose it to 'pointy', it will most likely NOT mushroom then slip through like a FMJ - if shot in a good spot the bear will die, but it may run A LONG LONG WAYS first!!

Hope this helps, best of luck!
Del

[RollTide]

I would go with JJHack on this one and use 240gr JHP at full throttle for black bear. Hack claims the heavy JHP's have plenty of penetration for black bears.   From what I understand, hardcast will leave a good blood trail and you will need it unless you break down the running gear with the first shot.  Hack seems the think the JHP does a better job of anchoring the bear, and after 100 bears with a handgun to his credit, I won't argue with him.  I greatly respect those who have suggested the hardcast and it is a good option, especially for hunting, but when I go into black bear country it is with full bore JHPs in my gun.  A hunting situation can turn into a defense situation in a hurry, and I believe the JHP's are superior for defense for sure.

Roll Tide

[S.B.]

RollTide, I'll have to go back and reread JJHack's article? You've read more than I saw in it.

[Redhawk1]

RollTide, your last comment does not make sense to me. If I had to rely on a bullet for a defense in this case, I think the hard cast beats out the jhp.  Sorry but a jhp is not know as a bone crusher. JMO

[jk3006]

I've never shot a bear with either, but I have read JJACK's article several times and I'm pretty sure he did say that the 240 jhp would exit on a boradside shot almost every time.  He definitely has the experience with all the bears he's killed, but some people here also have shot quite a few bears with hard cast and have claimed good results.  Maybe it's a toss-up. 

[Ak.Hiker]

You could get both expansion and penetration with the Nosler Partition Gold 250 in the 44 magnum.

[RollTide]

Redhawk,
I know you have more experience at this than I do first hand, so I am not going to argue with you either.  The way I understand it is that black bears are just not so massive or tough as to put up to much resistance to a full power 240-260gr JHP.  Hack says when you shoot an aggressive bear with a hardcast, even Garrett's loads, which he has done, they just whistle right through and do not effect the bears aggressive attitude toward the shooter at all.  If it is not a CNS shot or does not break enough leg bones to immobilize the bear, he will usually just run off.  If for any reason he runs in the direction of the shooter, you are in trouble.  Hack says that a bear shot with a full bore JHP will either roll on the ground or sit back on his haunches and bite at the wound.  If the 240JHP gives complete penetration through bone or whatever, and causes enough trauma to stop the bear in its tracks rather than allow it to run off, that is the bullet for me.  Hopefully in a few weeks, I will be able to let you know if Hacks experience translates to my neck of the woods.  I beleive completely that a harcast will kill a bear like you say, but will basically pencil a 44 caliber hole stem to stern.  The JHP on the other hand will punch a hole stem to stern and cause so much trauma in the process to make the bear forget about the shooter and focus on the wound.  THAT is a STOP.  And a stop is what you need for defense, not just an eventual kill.  A hardcast will provide an eventual kill sure enough.   If you take out major running gear or the CNS hardcast will provide a stop.  Hack says the JHP will provide a stop without taking out the running gear or the CNS, both of which are highly unlikley if an angry bear is running right at you.   It is a matter of what the bear does between the shot and dying that makes the difference in a defense situation.  Does it stop or does it take you out before it dies.

I certainly respect your experience and opinion and your choice to carry hardcast if you want, but when MY life is on the line I am going to use a heavy JHP.

Your choice your life, my choice my life.

Best regards,
Roll Tide

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive shot a few heads of game with both. I personaly have saw a bear shot with a 44 mag with a 240 sieara hp that the bullet came apart on the shoulder and didnt do the job. The bear was finished off with a cast after a half a day of tracking. I aslo saw a wild boar shot with a 41 mag using a 210 hp that was stopped on the gizzle shield and finished off with a 41 special shooting a 215 cast at 1000 fps. Now im not going to sit here and try to say that jhp bullets are no good. They will in most cases kill quicker then a cast. But they also will sometimes fail and thats not an option for me. To say that a cast bullet pensils a hole the lenght of the wound channel just isnt so. Ive shot enough animals to know that they open up a respectable wound channel and if you compare the longer narrower wound channel of a cast bullet to the shorter but larger one a jhp makes there very comparable. Only thing is is that a cast bullet will pentrated to the vitals at any angle for the most part and if you dont take out the vitals it doesnt matter how big your wound channel is, your going to be tracking a wounded animal. To me to use a jhp on a wounded bear is a mistake. The bear isnt going to stand still for your to get a perfect broadside shot. More times then not your going to be looking at his poop shoot running away and your going to really need some penetration then. Id like to know that when that bears moving around and moving in any direction includeing toward me that my bullet is going to go through him and break bone while its going. I have alot of respect for jjhack. Hes killed alot more animals them me but remember he was killing nusinces bears and probably had time to pick his shots and no doubt if you had time to slip a jhp behind a bears shoulder it would proably kill quicker then a cast. As far as a wounded black bear charging me everyone ive shot and seen shot and talked to guys that have shot have took off like a scalded rabbit when shot. There is though one instance when bear hunting that i would use hp bullets. Thats when running them with dogs. There usually shot treed and you can pick your shots and you want the beer dead real fast so the dogs dont get into it with them and get hurt. But most of the time in that type of hunting there is more then one shooter and you shoot till the bear doesnt move.

[Redhawk1]

RollTide, you are correct, use what you feel comfortable with.

Also black bear are not all that tough, but I have seen some take a few good shots and keep coming. Most black bear will run like the wind when shot, some turn and come after what just hurt them, not the norm though.In that situation, I want something that will break the skull and penatrate. 

[S.B.]

The question was Black bear hunting over bait not defending a life form an attack?

[Lloyd Smale]

S.B. is right the post was about hunting over bait and it got twisted around again into one of those dammed bear protection posts!! For hunting over bait and given the oportunity to pick your shot either will work.

The question was Black bear hunting over bait not defending a life form an attack?

[jk3006]

For what it's worth I'd also like to add that JJACK used 240 and 300 xtp's exclusively, to my knowledge.  Perhaps an xtp will hold together better than other jhp's for better penetration. 

[Jaydub in Wi]

Thanks for the posts guys. I was asking because I haven't done a lot of handgun hunting yet.I'm reading Dr Nordberg's book now, and he suggests using a load that will leave a blood trail after the bullet passes through the heart. I've read Veral's book also , but I haven't seen them in action yet.I'm going with a 300 gr 45 in my blackhawk, but I also have a 338 win m 70 that needs use too. thanks again

[Redhawk1]

The question was Black bear hunting over bait not defending a life form an attack?

I would still use hard cast. Sorry if you don't agree with the way the thread went, but it can happen and has.
Have you ever tracked a wounded bear that was shot over bate?  Get on you hands an knees looking for blood or going into heavy cover, I have and it is not a fun experience. So there can be more to it than shooting Boo-Boo over bate. 

[RollTide]

I would still use hard cast. Sorry if you don't agree with the way the thread went, but it can happen and has.
Have you ever tracked a wounded bear that was shot over bate?  Get on you hands an knees looking for blood or going into heavy cover, I have and it is not a fun experience. So there can be more to it than shooting Boo-Boo over bate. 

Well said Redhawk.  I respect you and Lloyd a LOT and know you both have a wealth of experience.  I really appreciate how you both and JJHack take time to inform those of us with less experience.  All my life, when I needed to know something important, I went to people who had been there, done that, bought the Tshirt, and worn it out.  You three fall into that category and I for one really apprecite that you take time to share.

Plus, if I disagree with you, you share more.  I'm a sneaky cuss aint I. 

Roll Tide

[corbanzo]

For a broadside shot at 25 yards, both the JHP and the cast are gonna go straight through.  If you want a quartering shot to go through a shoulder, then I would recommend a cast, but even with a heavy JHP at 25 yards, you are going to cause some pretty good bone damage.

Black bears are considered soft skinned game.

[jk3006]

Thanks for the posts guys. I was asking because I haven't done a lot of handgun hunting yet.I'm reading Dr Nordberg's book now, and he suggests using a load that will leave a blood trail after the bullet passes through the heart. I've read Veral's book also , but I haven't seen them in action yet.I'm going with a 300 gr 45 in my blackhawk, but I also have a 338 win m 70 that needs use too. thanks again

By all means share with us how your experience went if and when that day comes!

[Larry Gibson]

First black bear I shot with a handgun was up a tree bayed by dogs. I had a M94 30-30 but chose to us my Colt Combat Commander instead. The load was the old RN Hornady 185 gr HPs over 7.5 gr of Unique. These were running right at 1005 fps out of the Commander. I shot the bear 4 times because the guide didn't want him coming out of the tree alive. The fir tree was on a hillside so I was able to get a good pretty much level shot at the bear from the uphill side. Range was 25-30 yards. All 4 shots were heart lung shots and the bear died quickly staying in the tree. I had to climb up and push him out. He weighed around 200 lbs. Three of the bullets were through and through and the 4th went through the heart lungs, the off side shoulder and lodged under the hide. I could have reloaded it and shot it a gain as there was no expansion.

Second black bear with a handgun was a smaller 180 lb or so bear that I stalked late one evening in a clearcut. I used a M1917 S&W .45AR loaded with cast 452490 (240 gr SWC GC) over 7.5 gr of Unique (must be something about that load!) for 990 fps. Shot the bear 3 times from 45-60 yards (it was ambling quartering away after the first broadside shot) before it dropped. All three shots were through and through the heart lung area and out the off side/shoulder.

I've been on a couple other black bear kills with handguns. One was with a 8 3/8s barrel M29 .44 with Lee Jurris's original 180 HPs. A couple other were with .41 Mags using SPs (Remington 210s if I remember right), one with a Super BH with 7 1/2" barrel .44 using the classic Kieth load and the last was with a 5 1/2" (?) Redhawk .44 using 240 XTPs.  All the magnums using jacketed bullets had complete penetration and exhibited much more terminal damage than the hard cast bullet.

While I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a black bear with cast bullets if that's what I had in by handgun at the time if I were to purposely go hunting black bear I would use my 7 1/2" barreled Ruger Bisley .41 or my Ruger 6 1/2" barreled 50th anniversary BH .44. I would have the 210 XTP in the .41 and the 240 XTP in the 44. Both are loaded to 1400+ fps.

That's my experience and my choice these days.

Larry Gibson

[tony212]

A bullet typed that is hardly ever mentioned but the one I have had the best luck with is the jacketed soft point.  I have killed several bears with a .44 revolver and 240 grain jacketed soft points have worked the best for me.  I have killed bears with cast bullets but when I took a close look at their performance I found that they lacked any expansion at all and cut clean .44 caliber holes, most of the time with complete penetration.  While penetration is good when shooting tough animals like bears I prefer to have some energy transfer and more tissue damage with it.  On the other hand the bears I have seen killed with hollow points had massive tissue damage.  But I have also seen the same hollow points blow up when shot placement wasn't quite right and heavy bone (shoulders) were hit.  Soft points offer a good compromise.  They are capable of offering good tissue damage as well as penetration.  I have always had complete penetration as well as good expansion with Speer 240 grain soft points over 17.5 grains of 2400 and a CCI 350 primer for 1150FPS.  If you don't reload try the Remington factory green box 240 JSP.  I'm sure either one will work out well for you.
Hope this gives you another option.
Tony

[HHI-7420]

Seems to me that everyone that posted here is right. Circumstances rule. It all depends upon the instance of use(defense/tree stand, etc.).  Pat

[Del]

A few folks here have referenced a posting by JJHACK about using handguns for bears, I remembered reading that so went looking for it on this site, and this is where I found it:

GBO Bear Hunting forum, title was "Question for JJHack", posted Sept.09, 2003.

For any handgun hunter or people who carry a handgun for protection from bears, this is definitely worth the time to read!!

Anyone how has LOTS of experience at what ever it is you may be interested in, they are well worth listening to!!

Hope this helps!
Del