anybody read this article yet on the ultimates

[DEPUTY]

http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/pdfs/article_precisionshooting.pdf

[oneshotonekill]

Good article,

The thing that got me in that article is the talk of the ignition using large rifle mag primers.  Based on the description in the article it seems as though the chemical composition of the primer can cause a different type of detonation.  He compares a standard ML using 209's (only having the capability of burning 110 grains of powder at a pressure just over 19k) to the large rifle mag primer in the ultimate creating a high detonation burning all the powder in 9 inches of barrel and a pressure of over 52k.  If that is true that the lead compound in the rifle primer causes a different "high energy detonation" as compared to the mercury compounds traditionally used in percussion caps and 209's then why hasn't anyone blown up a ML using veriflame adapters.  I have a hard time believing the primer alone would make that much difference.  That's 2.5 times the pressure and we are talking pyrodex not smokeless. 

[Mac11700]

Good article,

The thing that got me in that article is the talk of the ignition using large rifle mag primers.  Based on the description in the article it seems as though the chemical composition of the primer can cause a different type of detonation.  He compares a standard ML using 209's (only having the capability of burning 110 grains of powder at a pressure just over 19k) to the large rifle mag primer in the ultimate creating a high detonation burning all the powder in 9 inches of barrel and a pressure of over 52k.  If that is true that the lead compound in the rifle primer causes a different "high energy detonation" as compared to the mercury compounds traditionally used in percussion caps and 209's then why hasn't anyone blown up a ML using veriflame adapters.  I have a hard time believing the primer alone would make that much difference.  That's 2.5 times the pressure and we are talking pyrodex not smokeless. 

That's a good question...since I just got my variflame adapter kit to try out

Mac

[Wolfhound]

http://www.ultimatefirearms.com/pdfs/article_precisionshooting.pdf

Looks like a sales pitch instead of a genuine article.

[DEPUTY]

that's what i Like about you Wolfhound your so positive, like every other article written huh...... about every other gun .   even the all mighty savage

[Keith Lewis]

I guess the small rifle primers are a lot different from the large rifle primers as I have been using them with the .25ACP conversion in my NEF and my Omega and have not experienced any high pressure "detonation" yet. If there is any difference in how the Ultimate ignites the powder I would believe breechplug design before this "detonation" hype.

[Busta]

There are people that have seen and understand the Ultimate, and those who haven't and don't. The breech plug is like no other muzzleloader out there, the Large Magnum Rifle Primers by themselves will increase pressure over standard primers. If you have never seen the Ultimate in action, then how can you comment on it? The patented breech plug design, Large Magnum Rifle Primers, and quality barrels all work as a system to ignite/detonate the whole stack of pellets at the same time.

Until you see the cutaway .45 case slide onto and into the breech plug, you probably just won't understand it. The .45 case goes over a large nipple (for lack of a better term) in the plug that seats itself into the primer flash hole in the back of the case, the case is also inside the breech plug, totally sealing out blowback. The primer has a direct channel into the powder. The .25 ACP ignition and Vari-Flame ignition is not even in the same league. I use the .25 ACP, the interior of the case is wide open, does not have a direct channel into the powder, and therefore is very inefficient by comparison, but efficient enough to do the job in most applications. This is not your daddy's muzzleloader. These guys nailed the perfect ignition and have had it for around 10 years now.

The .25 acp uses either, Small Rifle Primers or Small Pistol Primers. Not to mention, the primer does not have a direct channel into the powder. The .25 ACP primer flash has to travel through the full length and WIDTH of the case before it can funnel itself down to enter the channel, where it has to travel even further to the powder. Basically, the case is just the carrier for the primer, and these two systems are totally different.

The Vari-Flame also used the Small Rifle Primers or Small Pistol Primers, not Large Magnum Rifle Primers. Totally different systems.

And no, I don't own an Ultimate, and I am not affiliated with them in any way. I do think their system is the most efficient design ever made though. If their plug wasn't patented, someone else would have surely copied it, it is that good.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Large+Magnum+Rifle+Primers&btnG=Google+Search

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Lead-Styphnate&btnG=Search

[Ricci Price]

   I built my own smokeless muzzle loader a few years back (actually built a barrel for a H&R), and one of the things I found critical to accuracy is primer type and breech plug design. I found that large rifle primers are much cleaner than 209's (of coarse) and are far more accurate, in my rifle. Not many people understand the pellet theory, most think that they are for covenience of loading, which they are, but they also allow for a faster burn if the gun is set up for as in the Ultimate. They can only get there speed from pellets and not from powder, powder is a progressive burn for length tolerant barrels, the longer the barrel the more powder it will burn, pellets ,on the other hand, stacked on top of each other with the hole in the middle start burning alltogether at ignition, causing what Busta says, detonation, or in other words everthing blowing up at once. I didn't copy the ultimates breech plug design, but I do use large rifle primers.

[Wolfhound]

that's what i Like about you Wolfhound your so positive, like every other article written huh...... about every other gun .   even the all mighty savage

Not all articles are that slanted. It's too much like Randy's writings.

[Oldsnow]

   I built my own smokeless muzzle loader a few years back (actually built a barrel for a H&R), and one of the things I found critical to accuracy is primer type and breech plug design.

Ricci Price I would like to here more about the H&R smokeless rifle you built. Shoot me an E-mail, thanks Oldsnow.
   
    habackus@mchsi.com

[dmurphy317]

While the design may be innovative and the breach plug unique, I don't buy the 750fps better hype for a minute. One of the loads I shoot using 130gr of Pyro pellets averages 1950fps using a 300gr SST. Same load using a 250gr SW is around 2050fps. The 275 they mentioned is moving at 2326fps. That's less that +300fps vs the 250 and less than +400fps vs the 300. And they are using 80gr more powder. Also running the numbers for the 275gr x 200gr load, the drop at 500 yards is around 8.5 feet and the energy is around 760foot pounds, OK for deer maybe but a little light for elk in my opinion. My 300gr load comes close to those numbers at around 440 yards and the 250gr load has similar drop at 435 yards but with 200 pounds less energy. All of these are based on a 6" point blank range sightin.

Based on the information the rifle is accurate, but I would expect a gun that costs $1,600 and outfitted with $600+ worth of glass to be accurate. I personally don't have that kind of money to spend on a gun that is only marginally better than the $200 gun (including glass) I have now that shoots .75" groups at 100 yards and sub 3" groups at 200 yards with enough energy to get the job done on an elk with over 1000 foot pounds out past 300 yards. I do limit my shots to 200 or less rather than risk a bad shot.

If you can afford it and it's legal where you hunt, go for it. For the rest of us, there are far more economical choices that get us close enough to it's performance within the reasonable and average hunting range most animals are taken at. That's my 2 cents.