Spanish civil guardian 1916

[257roberts]

I just bought a spanish civil guardian 1916 for $50 bucks and have a few questions. I whould like to fix this gun up for my 7 year old son.It is mark for 7.62mm but I know this is to much recoil and the issues about fireing 308 win. in this guns. My plans was to buy a chamber insert to fire 7.62x39 ammo. Has any one tried this and what about chambering rounds. I have tried running a few 308 rounds in this gun but they do not feed very well and I was thinking the shorter round would be worse.

[Slamfire]

Have you looked for a reduced recoil loading? The Model 1916 is actually a variant of the 1893 Mauser, and continued use of standard .308 or 7.62 NATO rounds may cause the recoil lugs to compress the lug seats. 

[Mikey]

257Roberts:  Please take Slamfire's post under due consideration as that is an older rifle.

The feeding problems you encounter are most likely due to the shorter length of the 51mm Nato round in comparison to the 57mm length 7mm cartridge the rifle was originally designed for. 

The use of a 7.62x39mm chamber insert in a 308/7.62x51mm chamber will give tons of surplus fun for your son but you are correct in that the shorter 39mm round will most likely have just as many feeding problems as you encountered with the 51mm round.  But, you can still enjoy that rifle with the 39mm round.  Please remember that the Mauser bolt will not close on a chambered round and is designed to feed the round from the magazine. 

This will be, certainly, a single shot affair but one I think you and your son can have fun with.  I think the more you play with this set-up the easier you will find where to place the insert in the magazine so you can properly chamber it smoothly.  HTH and good luck.  Mikey.

[S.S.]

Just start reloading ?
You can have some great fun loading the ammo with your son.
Load the rounds down in power to suit him and load them a bit long
to solve the feed problem. I have almost the same rifle but mine was re barreled in Israel
and not Spain.

[257roberts]

Thanks for the info. I do reload and mite look into reloading reduced loads before going with the insert since I have 308 dies, brass, etc. Because I have no plans on fireing 308 win. or nato rounds because of the pressure issues.

[Mikey]

257Roberts:  the pressure issues arise when using the higher pressure 308 hunting rounds in the 7.62x51mm chamber.  The 7.62 Nato round works at about the same pressures as the 7x57 does, around 47-49k psi but the 308 often runs at around 60k psi

You reload, so you can load down some 308s for you and your son to use.  Thanksfully S.S. has experience with the exact problem and has provided advice regarding overal cartridge length.  You can certainly reduce your loads for the 308 cartridge:  my Speer #12 manual shows reduced loads for the 308 - you can shoot the 100 gn half jacket at between 1570 and 1940'/sec; the 110 gn M1 carbine bullet at between 1920 and 2260'/sec, and other reduced loads are available. 

I would certainly take this rifle to a gunsmith who can inspect it for safety.  Then, if I were to use it I would use reduced loadings just to be safer.  After all, you can load a 308 down to the level of a 30-30 and do just fine with it should the opportunity arise.  HTH.  Mikey.

[Larry Gibson]

Mikey

Got to ask; where did you come up with this?

"The 7.62 Nato round works at about the same pressures as the 7x57 does"

Larry Gibson

[Mikey]

Larry:  I hope I'm not wrong with this but I believe I read this from another post on this forum, not too long ago, when discussing said same rifles or the FR rebarrels.  I think the FR rebarrels were 98 actions where some of the earlier Guardia rifles were either 93s or 95s.  I believe one of the posts spoke to the pressure concerns and provided that information. 

One other post also provided the 308 pressures ranging higher than the 7.62 nato, with the 308s going to 60K psi while the 7.62 Nato pressures remained in the earlier mil-spec range of 47-49K psi.

Truly, I hope I'm right about this.  If not, please correct me.  Thanks.  Mikey.

[Slamfire]

Mikey I think you're referring to the 7.62 CETME round.

[Mikey]

Slamfire - thanks.  The 7.62 CETME round may be the culprit I was speaking about but I checked some of my reloading manuals for backup.  I see that many of the 308 loads (in my manuals) run to 52K psi yet understand that some commercial loads may run even higher, to possibly 60k psi. 

I believe I recall, accurately that the operating pressures of the 7.62 Nato round were in the 47-49k psi range for use in autoloaders - the M14 in particular.  I also recall reading that most mil-spec ammo, including euro military cailbers operated in the same range.  The 7x57 was used in the FN semi-autos and the 8x57 was used in the GEW (?) semi-autos and I don't think those things were built to handle the higher pressures of some hunting rounds but rather the more standard pressures of mil-spec ammo. 

Again I hope I'm right on this because I don't want to confuse the issue or possibly present anything that might be of a danger and if anyone out there has a more definitive answer then let us please clarify this.  Thanks all, very much.  Mikey.

[Smokin Joe]

Interesting article:

http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/spanishinquisition/index.asp

" The ORIGINAL cartridge (among a number of “prototypes”) was a 7.92 x 40mm round developed for the (then) experimental CETME rifle. It was then changed to a 7.62 x 51mm cartridge but at a lower pressure and lighter bullet then the 7.62 NATO. According to sources, this 7.62 CETME round was only used in two rifles, the CETME model A and B assault rifles. The 7.62 NATO is 7.62 x 51mm round also, but is loaded at a higher pressure and is still in use. The various re-worked rifles, including the FR7/8 and Guardia Civil, were ALL re-chambered in 7.62 NATO."

[Larry Gibson]

Mikey

Lots of misinformation out there on the so called pressure difference between 7.62 NATO and >308 Winchester. Most comes from comparing different methods of obtaining "psi", comparing psi to CUP and comparing average working pressures to maximum allowable pressure. Let me quote from TM 9-1305-200 dated June of '61 regarding the pressure for M80 Ball; "The average chamber pressure may vary from 45,000 psi to 65,000 psi, depending on the temperature." That TM also relates that average working pressures are held within +/- 7,000 psi. Now considering most quote the SAAMI maximum pressure figure for .308 Winchester as (quotes vary) in the 60,000 psi range and you see there isn't any difference. US 7.62 NATO ammuniton is loaded right up there.  Now, referencing this thread regarding the M1916 rifle, the Spanish manuals for that rifle have it used with Nato Spec 7.62 ammo and the 7.62 CETME round may lso be used.  Keep in mind that the development of the Mauser actions was one of continual progress and improvement. The M93 was not designed "just" to handle the pressure of the 7x57. It was designed to be as strong as it could be. The Spanish found, as others have that a M93 action still in good condition will handle modern cartridges. These rifles were not made just for the CETME cartridge.  BTW; the CETME cartridge was made so the original CETME rifles with unfluted chambers would function.

Larry Gibson

[Slamfire]

Larry, the M1916s I've examined all had the flat bolt bottom, that is indicative of the early M93s. The Spanish built them in La Caruna(?) under license. The bolts did not have the gas relief hole, or shroud that were the major improvements in the M95s. While I've never seen an M93 with deformed lug seats I have seen an M95 with set back in excess of .005". I don't know about the metallurgy, but things were slower before the War To End All Wars, so wouldn't be surprised if there was no improvement. I can't, in good conscience, recommend the continual use full pressure ammo in this rifle. Additionally, 257 Roberts said the gun would be used by a seven year old boy, so I cautioned him against using .308 or NATO ammo, and suggested reduced recoil rounds.  The "safety lug" is a red herring, the earlier models had a bolt handle root that preformed the same function.
257 Roberts, a competent hobby smith I know, swears by 130 grain Speers in the old Mausers he sporterizes for his grandchildren. He claims they kills whitetails as well as the standard 150 grain bullets. I believe him, as I've seen good results out of various Contenders on California Mulies. 
Peace brothers, I mean no insult. 

[Larry Gibson]

Slamfire

That's the nice thing about this country, we have choices. My point to Mikey was that the "difference" in operating pressures between the .308 and the 7.62 is a myth. I also questioned where the 7x57 pressures came into the equation.  As to continued use of 7.62 in the M1916s or FR7s. I believe 257 Roberts was interested in putting a 7.62x39 insert into his chamber to convert the rifle to that cartridge. I've seen a couple of these and they seem to work fine. Reduced loads in the original 7.62 NATO chambering are also a good alternative for his son to shoot. I used reduced loads years ago for my own daughter to kill deer. There are some M1916s and FR7s that are not in very good condition that I'd not use but then I've seen a lot of M70s, M700s etc that weren't in good shape either and that I'd not use. However, there are lots of M1916 and FR7s that are in good shape and I know of numerous ones that have been used with a considerable amount of 7.62 M80 ammo without problems.  I have a M1916 (made in '28) action that I picked up in '69. It already had been sporterized and what barrel(s) or cartridges it had gone through i unknown. I have shot out 2 new commercial .308 winchester barrels on it using M80 Ball, factory .308 and my own hand loads. I now have a 2 groove '03 barrel on it chambered to a cast bullet cartridge of my own design.  It is still going strong.  I've no problem putting copious quanities of 7.62 NATO through one of these as long as it is in good condition. But that is my choice. I respect your choice also.

Larry Gibson

[Mikey]

Larry, slamfire:  thank you both.  Mikey.

[257roberts]

Thanks for all the info. This is my first project gun and I think everybody for all the information. I will probably try the 7.62x39 insert first, because of the cheap ammo and can reload some deer rounds with 130gr nosler BT which works great on deer in my contender pistol.But I'am going to check the headspace with a field gauge to make sure its safe to fire. If it checks out ok I'am going to sandblast and reblue. They make a short action mag kit does anyone know if this helps with the short 7.62x39 round. If I do not like like the 7.62x39 I can always knock out the insert and try some 308 reduced loads. Thanks again since this is all new to me.

[jgalar]

I would just use starting loads. If you use 4895 you can reduce it a bit more. Plenty of reduced loads available.

[S.S.]

Disagreement with CIVILITY !! All forums should follow the example 

[qajaq59]

I would reload and use cast bullets. They're cheap enough to buy or cast and the recoil will be far less then jacketed bullets. Plus your boy will learn to really clean a rifle after he uses it so that the barrel doesn't lead up.

[ScoutMan]

Clarify this for me.  Will  beginning loads from the manuals be considered as reduced loads. For my M-1, I've always stuck  to the middle loads in the manuals for flawless functioning.

[Larry Gibson]

Clarify this for me.  Will  beginning loads from the manuals be considered as reduced loads. For my M-1, I've always stuck  to the middle loads in the manuals for flawless functioning.

Yes.

Larry Gibson

[Slamfire]

I don't know how much reduction in recoil you'll experience, but the pressures ought to be on the mild side with starting loads.