Author Topic: After hunt, your bush-pilot does not arrive. (Read 1674 times)

WaitsLong · « **on:** April 16, 2007, 10:12:44 AM »

How long before you decide that 1) he is not coming or
2) he will be a long time delayed; so that you must go into
survival mode.

No one except the pilot knows you are in the bush.
You have no transmitters or locators beacons.
You know that there has been no bad weather at
any relevant airfield; you were monitoring radio.

One specific consequence of survival mode:
Shoot an extra animal, if possible, start drying meat.
Do you have other survival suggestions.

I posted here because this has more to do with North
Country, flying in, bush-pilot behavior, etc. than it does
about survival per se.

corbanzo · « **Reply #1 on:** April 16, 2007, 12:20:19 PM »

If I'm out hunting where I need a pilot, I'm already in survival mode.

I keep camping, make signals, eat pretty darn good if I was out hunting.

Really, if you are out where you have supplies and something to eat, its not too big of a deal.

Drastic temperature without the right gear and injury are really the only thing to take you down. But you would have to be out quite a while for that to happen. Stay put and enjoy yourself. "I got stuck out in the woods..... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out in the woods" is a good excuse not to be at work on monday.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #2 on:** April 16, 2007, 01:32:27 PM »

That was a concern of mine when I went to Alaska. I was there when they had fires at Bettles and all over. We arrived at Bettles and had to stay there 3 days before we could fly out. The people that were out in the bush had to wait for the plains to get them. Like corbanzo , I went into survival mode when I watched the plain fly off knowing I was over 150 miles from anything. We brought along a satellite phone with 2 fully charged batteries for our back up. Also, the air service kept track of where everyone was located. Just plan good and have fun. Get your GPS coordinate from the bush pilot, just in case you need it. Also have the phone number for different agencies for Alaska, just in case.

WaitsLong · « **Reply #3 on:** April 16, 2007, 07:09:09 PM »

Redhawk1,
SatPhone sounds good and air-service knowing where you
are very good precautions.

All,

Please consider, without a transmitter (SatPhone is a transmitter),
and if no third party knows your location, no known speciai
circumstance, like forest fires or bad weather.

One other cause of survival situation, the pilot leaves you
at a different place than he originally intended, therefor
nobody knows where you really are, except the pilot.

There are a lot of variables, but I am trying to get an idea
of what is reasonable. Does below seem reasonable.

1 day late, build signal fires but do not light them, yet.

2 days late, if any plane is spotted, signal with fires, mirrors or whatever.

3 days late, shoot extra animals, even with no license (tag).

4 days late, start drying meat.

5 days late, make some permanent, signal structures if possible.

Would this seem over-reactive to you?

As noted by Corbanzo, weather may change, for the worse.
And animals may leave the area at any time, maybe when the
weather changes. Pardon the drama, but these things could
easily happen, just when you decide you need more food.

Daveinthebush · « **Reply #4 on:** April 17, 2007, 07:08:23 PM »

Well it happened to a lot of hunters up here all on the same day. 9/11

Some had sat. phones, radio and some not. I do remember one guy walking out to the road.........

miles I can't remember.

It happens and one has to first sum up the situation and decide what to do. Up here, depending on the area you may just be stuck.

WaitsLong · « **Reply #5 on:** April 17, 2007, 08:50:17 PM »

Quote from: Daveinthebush on April 17, 2007, 07:08:23 PM

Well it happened to a lot of hunters up here all on the same day. 9/11
Some had sat. phones, radio and some not. I do remember one guy walking out to the road......... miles I can't remember.
It happens and one has to first sum up the situation and decide what to do. Up here, depending on the area you may just be stuck.

Dave,
I had not even thought of 9/11 and the grounding of aircraft;
I was thinking of the few stories about people left until they starved
or tried to walk or paddle out.

Everyone should have a workable radio receiver and listen at key times.
At least they would not over react, if local news described flight delays.

The older I get and the more I read, the more I see staying, hunting/foraging,
and signalling planes as the most practical, FOR ME. Walking out, no me.
A young guy, with a reasonable path to a road or town, it might make
sense to walk. But the North is characterized by water-bog hazards in the
summer and temps and winds that kill people after the freeze-up.

I gather from the nature of the responses that there is no set of guide-lines,
since conditions and people abilities and temperament differ so widely.

Edited: 2nd to last line, inserted "set of", to make singular/plural agreement.

williamlayton · « **Reply #6 on:** April 18, 2007, 12:37:38 AM »

HUMMM. Interesting thoughts and a good discussion.
I am shocked to think that there is not a requirement for bush pilots too plan a give details of those plans to someone---maybe I misinterpreted the post.
If I had done this I think I would have assumed that others knew of locations and plans. Guess I learned not to assume.
Seems like there is need of some co-ordinated effort to keep track of bush pilots/guides/plans and locations.
I am in agreement with not moving and surviving.
I am also in agreement--now--with the thought of being of a mindset, from the beginning, that I was in a survival mode.
Looking at it all and giving some thought too it, I think some of these thoughts need too be remembered if you are in the lower states and just on a day trip in the car.
Always have a plan "B" in place and think about the what-if's. It could be a fruitful thing.
Thanks for the heads-up and post.
Blessings

WaitsLong · « **Reply #7 on:** April 18, 2007, 06:48:20 AM »

Trying to figure out why this bothered me enough
to start this thread, I thought of similar cases
(being left) had nothing to do with pilots, at all.

Hundreds died when they were left on the sea ice
by a sea captain. There was a perp: never punished.
Book: Death on the Ice
http://www.amazon.ca/Death-Ice-Newfoundland-Sealing-Disaster/dp/customer-reviews/0385251793

At the Equipped to Survive website, I read this story of
Chris Kavanaugh and others who were left on an island with
"equipment to follow". Guess what happened.
http://equipped.com/srvstoriestoc.htm

These two examples show that the problem is not limited to bush-pilots
and bush flights.

However, I see a special problem with bush flights because the amount
of gear (in small planes) is so limited, the hunter cannot take very much
survival equipment.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #8 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:23:00 AM »

Just learn from others mistakes and plan well. Use your head.

corbanzo · « **Reply #9 on:** April 19, 2007, 09:07:49 AM »

All pilots should file flight plans of where they are going and when they are coming back. If I was to get dropped off, I would take the GPS, get exact coordinates, and have the pilot write them down, so we know the exact location, and not the planned location

Quote

However, I see a special problem with bush flights because the amount
of gear (in small planes) is so limited, the hunter cannot take very much
survival equipment.

The planes won't limit you. If you can carry more than the plane can handle, you are one tough dude. When planning a hunitng trip, you should have your gear geared to how much traveling you are going to be doing. I have been out backpacking for over two weeks, carrying everythng with me the whole time, and having enough to survive just fine, and get by if I was stranded.

I have seen a few times when planes haven't been able to handle the trip:

Salmon poacher:

A guide was out with some clients, and they wanted to go over the limit, to store the fish and get past f&g, they stored fish in the floats. Broke the float joists trying to take off.

Beer:

Guys going out for a trip, I think it was actually a science trip, tried to take a whoooole lot of beer with them. Plane wouldnt take off, beer got left behind.

WaitsLong · « **Reply #10 on:** April 19, 2007, 10:56:17 AM »

Corbanzo,
So, extra weight can be taken. Do you have a
typical example (or link) of a plane, people, gear, supplies?

All I found on the internet was 50-60 pound baggage limit and
500 pound total load, which I suspected was not real.
In a bush-pilot book, the first part of the book explained that
the small Piper type planes were FAA rated at a very conservative
load weight. But, everyone overloaded, on a regular basis.

I assumed that 2 hunters with gear and supplies and game on the
way back, would approach or surpass the actual limit of a
small plane .
It just occurred to me that the air thickness, weather, and
especially geography (mountain pass vs flat hop) all go into what
the plane can haul.

It makes me feel good that you guys are living the adventure.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #11 on:** April 19, 2007, 01:21:21 PM »

I flew out on a beaver and now the air transport uses the otter also, which hold a lot more than the beaver. On the Beaver we had two guys at over 250 lb each and all the gear for 3 people. The next flight brought out the other guy with a small amount of gear.

That is why you need to plan ahead, call the air service and find out all your weight limits. Just remember, you are going to be roughing it, take only what you need for survival. You will be surprised what you can live with. Forget the beer and non essentials. Enjoy the experience.

corbanzo · « **Reply #12 on:** April 24, 2007, 04:21:46 AM »

I'm not talking about a whole lot of extra weight. We always weight our packs before hiking/mountaineering trips, just for fun and as habit, and it seems that for a week our minimum weight is about 30 lbs. That is another 30 lbs that I can take and be within pre set limits.

The limits put on planes are kind of worst case scenario limits, most pilots will load far beyond recommendations, it is just how it goes.

When you are out in a "survival" situation, the heavy things that you are taking are going to be food and water and fuel, which get consumed during the trip. Those are the variable weights. The sleeping bags, tent, cooking stuff, and hunting supplies arent going to change, they are fixed.

If it is gear that you can do without for a couple of days, you can do without it for a week or two also.

When you are coming back, all (or most of) these variables should be consumed, this making more room for the game. If you kill too much animal, it might have to make for two trips. Experienced pilots will know much much their plane can handle, and set their own limits. I dont remember if i saw it on the internet or where, but there is a video of a plane crashing because it didnt have enough runway taking hunters home, and hit trees. I'll post it if I can find it

corbanzo · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2007, 04:30:02 AM »

haha, this is what i found looking for that video:

Fly-in Moose Hunting
Lloyd and Bruce fly in to the Alaskan interior to go moose hunting. They have a good hunt, and both manage to get a large moose. When the plane returns to pick them up, the pilot looks at the animals and says, "This little plane won't lift all of us, the equipment, and both of these animals--you'll have to leave one. We'd never make it over the trees on the take-off."

"That's baloney", says Bruce.

"Yeah," Lloyd agrees, "you're just chicken. We came out here last year and got two moose and that pilot had some guts; he wasn't afraid to take off."

"Yeah," said Bruce, "and his plane wasn't any bigger than yours!"

The pilot got angry, and said, "Well, if he did it, then I can do it, I can fly as well as anybody!" They loaded up, taxied at full throttle, and the plane almost made it, but didn't have the lift to clear the trees at the end of the lake. It clipped the top, then flipped, then broke up, scattering the baggage, animal carcasses, and passengers all through the brush.

Still alive, but shaken and dazed, the pilot sat up, shook his head to clear it, and said "Where are we?"

Bruce rolled out from being thrown in a bush, looked around, and said, "I'd say, about a hundred yards further than last year."

corbanzo · « **Reply #14 on:** April 24, 2007, 04:38:44 AM »

survival situations...

Dand · « **Reply #15 on:** April 24, 2007, 11:41:45 PM »

Waitslong I don't mean to be inconsiderate but it seems like you spend a lot of time worrying - though this scenario has happened more than once. Especially when folks do business with sloppy operators. Get references before you hire a pilot / air taxi. The good ones do file flight plans, and have back up plans to take care of clients. And clients should tell their families or contacts, their basic schedule and general hunt location.

After that, the satellite phone has become popular. Some folks carry ELT ( emergency locator transmitters) or EPIRBs - that satellites and air craft can hear. Some carry vhf radios with aircraft frequency capabilities - but the ones I've had the batteries always seemed low or too cold when it came time to use the VHF. GPS, compass, and waterproofed maps of the area are good to have.

But any more much of Alaska has other planes flying over it and one is pretty likely to be able to signal other planes or boats etc. for help. Not always, there are some really deserted places, but I don't spend lots of time worrying about it other than making sure I'm hiring a good air taxi to start with.

I have hired pilots with super cubs to fly me to hunt locations and weight is really a factor there. I went with freeze dried food and very carefully selected my gear. My partner flew in a separate plane.

If you are going for really big game like moose, hunters should plan for a second trip to get the meat out - gear, hunters, and meat just may not fit in one plane load.

Going back to good operators - the good ones now days often weigh much of your gear and don't push the limits like they did in the 70's and 80's. The FAA is MUCH more strict now and pilots or air taxis can lose their license or insurance for dumb overloads.

Overall, your question is a good one that folks planning a remote trip should consider. Proper preplanning is the best defense.

One more thing. Just back from a lower 48 trip where I could watch cable TV. The Discovery Channel is featuring this British ex special forces guy who gets himself dumped in remote places and then he finds his way out. Trying to walk out is a Bad Idea in much of Alaska. All the survival stuff I've been exposed to here in AK - some of it required by my work - generally discouraged us from trying to walk out. Generally its much better to stay put in a safe place and make a signal. Save your food and energy for staying dry and warm as possible. Some parts of the state, 10 miles of walking in a day can be a killer - and often doesn't get one anywhere near to help.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2007, 04:01:18 AM »

In my 25 years of hunting all over Alaska it happen to me several times over those years.... I guess the worse one was being left in the Brooks Range 10 "extra" days... There's not much to scrounge up for dinner there in the late summer... You won't be walking out of where we was either, it was 80 miles to the nearest "anyplace", and that's 80 miles of mountains, rivers, and tundra! Smoked sheep meat gets to you after a couple days with nothing else... Remember you have "already" been eating it since you shot it!

Second worse, i was out on one of the islands in Prince William Sound.... At least it wasn't a huge problem to find food there... I think that was a week overstay that time and the weather can REALLY suck there at times? Forget about a fire, nothing will burn because it "never" dries out! Even though i got stuck there several times, i loved the place, and to this days it's one of my favorite hunting spots..

I was in King Salmom (KS) one time waiting for the plane to come in with a load so we could go out for brown bear... When the plane landed, it was a while before it could go back out, and the 3 guys getting out of the plane were HOT! After a while one of them told me, they had planned a 3 day duck hunt before being moved for brown bear... Problem is, the pilot that took them out there, forgot to log where they were when he got back to KS, and went outside on vacation... They were "duck hunting" for 2 extra weeks before someone happen to stop in to check on the cabin they were in! He just happen to stop in at that cabin because it was reserved for a couple days later and he was in the area...

I never stayed in a cabin while hunting, so i kinda thought it wouldn't have been so bad to be stuck the way they were... They even had food...

You can fly in more than you can fly out, so i always flew in with extra "fresh" food like potatoes/onions/bread and other things that can be left behind... Then i learned to bring 5 extra days of freeze dried food for "just in case".... Oh yea, i always took in a bottle of muli viamins too... As food run out i doubled then trippled them...

You have to stay strong so you can kick the pilots @$$ when he comes back...

DM

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2007, 08:27:13 AM »

I am telling you, 5 day extra of MRE's is the way to go. The food is not bad and has a lot of calories. 1 case has 12 meals in it. You just need a little water to heat them up.

corbanzo · « **Reply #18 on:** May 01, 2007, 03:21:21 AM »

And one big piece of very well vac-packed cheese. Man after a week or so out eating packpacking food, biting into a piece of cheese, even just a small one that lasts a moment... man that is good. Takes all your cares and tiredness away.

williamlayton · « **Reply #19 on:** May 02, 2007, 03:25:14 AM »

This is really good information and I am enjoying the reads.
Blessings