Author Topic: factory hunting loads for a 4" .357 magnum (Read 2670 times)

sachel.45 · « **on:** April 18, 2007, 06:51:13 AM »

I was wondering if anybody had any experience with either the 158 grain federal fusion or the 180 grain cast core bullets from federal for deer inside 75 yards i don't hand load as of yet (soon as i move) just wanted a good starting place and i've always had good luck with federal. its a ruger gp 100 also i really don't want a .41 or .44 mag so don't say i need to get something bigger not trying to be rude. thanks

Is64.8 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 18, 2007, 09:13:32 AM »

My wife has killed several deer with the .357 out of a Marlin 1894CP rifle (1) Federal 180gr Cast Core (2) Hornady 158gr XTP-JHP (3) Hornady 158gr XTP-JSP. All were shots less than 100yd, quick kills with complete penetration.

I would expect the Federal Cast Core to also penetrate very well out of a revolver, and a heavy for caliber JHP/JSP to completely penetrate on shots behind the shoulder. I'm probably not a whole lot of help.

RollTide · « **Reply #2 on:** April 18, 2007, 08:14:32 PM »

Not trying to be rude, but a 4" 357 is not a deer gun with ANY load factory of otherwise. Deer have been killed with the 357 (and a 22 for that matter), but a long barrel 357 is VERY marginal, and a short barrel one is simply not a responsible choice to humanely kill a deer. I have lost deer shot at close range with a 44mag and it is a LOT more powerful than a 357. If you don't want to get bigger gun, don't handgun hunt deer. You will wound and loose a lot of deer if you can even hit them at all with such a short sight radius at 75 yards

Roll Tide

Mikey · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2007, 07:45:15 AM »

sachel45: I usually limit my ranges to 50 yds with a 4" bbl unless I have a picture perfect sight picture and hold with a clear shot and then I will stretch it to 60 yds. However, I use a 357 load that is heavier than either of the loads you mentioned and have had slugs pentrate t&t on chest and shoulder shots to those distances. The old Remington standard 357 load with a 158 gn softnsoe bullet will penetrate the chest from a 4" revolver at 50 yds but soft nosed or hollowpoint bullets may veer off on shoulders or the rib cage. My recommendation is for a hardcast semiwadcutter bullet and I believe loads like that are available from some of the custom ammo shops (possibly Buffalo Bore, Garret, and others). The 357 is clearly capable of taking whitetail but many advocate for heavier calibers and as with any hunt, ethics should be a major consideration.

Whitetail I have taken with a 357 have either gone down quickly with shoulder shots or reacted similarly to a chest shot with a rifle bullet and run a bit. HTH. Mikey.

Ak.Hiker · « **Reply #4 on:** April 20, 2007, 04:28:39 PM »

The Winchester 180 grain .357 Partition Gold is designed for hunting deer. it would be worth looking at. You also have alot of 180 grain cast loads on the market to look at. The Buffalo Bore 180 cast is the most powerful out of the .357 loads I have tested.

Badnews Bob · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2007, 04:15:06 AM »

I have never failed to take a deer with my .357 useing 180 gr bullets, Complete penetration, In one side out the other, What more do you want?
I took a real nice 8pt buck last season @ 65 yards with my GP 100 180gr thru both lungs he traveled about a hundred yards layed down and we ate him.

sachel.45 · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2007, 07:59:33 AM »

Thanks for the help guys

Graybeard · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2007, 10:53:14 AM »

Boy I'll bet that Jerry Lester would beg to differ that the .357 Magnum isn't an adequate deer killer. He's taken quite a lot of them with his various .357 Magnums. About all I can say regarding the comment on having lost after being shot with a .44 magnum is that either: a. you need to learn to shoot better, b. learn deer anatomy a bit better, c. need to change your ammo or d. learn better tracking skills.

I've shot a LOT of deer with the .44 magnum and have NEVER yet lost one I shot with it. In fact taken on average the deer I've shot with it have traveled shorter distances than those shot with such rifles as the .270 Winchester, 7-08 and even the .30-06.

Now having said all that I guess I've never personally thought of the .357 magnum as a deer hunting round from a handgun. I carried one a bit in my early deer hunting days when the deer here in Bama in my area at least were darn few and far between and never got a chance to drop the hammer on one with it. Once I began using the .44 magnum I never carried the .357 again for deer hunting. But I know several folks who have shot deer with one even from guns with barrels as short as 3" and they brought their deer home.

I kinda think it matters more WHERE you put that bullet than exactly which bullet you use or what bore diameter is that bullet comes from.

poncaguy · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:58:21 AM »

Amen Graybeard, Amen!!!!

RollTide · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2007, 12:03:05 PM »

I agree that shot placement is the crucial point in hunting with anything and that the 357 has killed deer, as I said earlier. The deer I lost was a running shot that maybe I should have passed on, but it was close range and I took the shot. The blood trail dried up and I never found the deer in the jungle-like vegetation. Granted, maybe I'm a lousy shot and maybe I needed to use a better load (it was a full bore 240 JHP if memory serves) and maybe I need to track like some Apache friends of mine, but I would say I am at least as good a shot as most of the people who hunt with a handgun and probably track as well as most. The truth of the matter is that the best 357 load has about 500-600 ft/lbs of energy AT THE MUZZLE, probably less with a 4 inch barrel, and definitely less at 50 yards. That is considerably less than a 218 BEE or a 22 Hornet from a long gun. I know it has been done even with a 22LR like I said before, but I don't consider a 22LR, 218BEE, 22Hornet in a long gun, or 4" 357 handgun adequate for deer hunting. If you want to use a 4" 357 on deer, go right ahead. To each his own. I don't do it and don't recommend it.

Just my $.02

Roll Tide

poncaguy · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2007, 03:56:51 PM »

A 240 jhp in a 357???

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2007, 04:51:11 PM »

Quote from: Graybeard on April 21, 2007, 10:53:14 AM

Boy I'll bet that Jerry Lester would beg to differ that the .357 Magnum isn't an adequate deer killer. He's taken quite a lot of them with his various .357 Magnums. About all I can say regarding the comment on having lost after being shot with a .44 magnum is that either: a. you need to learn to shoot better, b. learn deer anatomy a bit better, c. need to change your ammo or d. learn better tracking skills.

I've shot a LOT of deer with the .44 magnum and have NEVER yet lost one I shot with it. In fact taken on average the deer I've shot with it have traveled shorter distances than those shot with such rifles as the .270 Winchester, 7-08 and even the .30-06.

Now having said all that I guess I've never personally thought of the .357 magnum as a deer hunting round from a handgun. I carried one a bit in my early deer hunting days when the deer here in Bama in my area at least were darn few and far between and never got a chance to drop the hammer on one with it. Once I began using the .44 magnum I never carried the .357 again for deer hunting. But I know several folks who have shot deer with one even from guns with barrels as short as 3" and they brought their deer home.

I kinda think it matters more WHERE you put that bullet than exactly which bullet you use or what bore diameter is that bullet comes from.

I try not to even bother arguing the point anymore GB. I'm more than willing to offer advice, or anything else to a fellow who's seriously wanting to know the facts on this subject, but I've grown tired of arguing with the ones that obviously have closed minds to reason.

All I can say is that there are those who hunt, and then there are a few who are true "hunters". A true hunter thinks about every aspect of hunting his target game such as size, ranges, anatomy, weather, terrain, etc. He then can take just about anything from a stick, or rock, to a bow, revolver, shotgun, or rifle, and harvest his game. He not only "kills" his target game, but he's patient enough to either wait for the perfect circumstances, or in my case willing to put in the work, to cause the perfect situation to unfold for him. He's then self disciplined enough to pass on anything other that that "perfect" set of circumstances. This mind set causes him to consistently make very humane kills no matter "what" method or tools he chooses.

This is absolutely what the art of hunting/shooting/killing game boils down to, nothing more, nothing less. All one has to do is compare his self to these absolutes to see which type of hunter he is. $:-\$

RollTide · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2007, 07:10:45 PM »

Poncaguy,
I was referring to my previous post where I mentioned having lost a deer shot with a 44 mag. Sorry for not making that more clear.

Roll Tide

RollTide · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2007, 07:23:31 PM »

Mr. Lester,
I am not trying to be argumentative. The original question was about using a 4" 357 out to 75 yards for deer. Do you think a 4"357 is 75 yard deer medicine? If that falls into your definition of "perfect circumstances" for taking a shot, my hats off to you. It does not fall into mine or anyone else I have ever seen shoot a 4" 357. I guess I should get out more.

Roll Tide

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2007, 05:38:16 PM »

Quote from: RollTide on April 18, 2007, 08:14:32 PM

Not trying to be rude, but a 4" 357 is not a deer gun with ANY load factory of otherwise. Deer have been killed with the 357 (and a 22 for that matter), but a long barrel 357 is VERY marginal, and a short barrel one is simply not a responsible choice to humanely kill a deer. I have lost deer shot at close range with a 44mag and it is a LOT more powerful than a 357. If you don't want to get bigger gun, don't handgun hunt deer. You will wound and loose a lot of deer if you can even hit them at all with such a short sight radius at 75 yards

Roll Tide

I understand that the original question was about ranges up to 75 yards which I agree is too far for a 357 revolver. Your response here though pretty much is saying the same old arguments often made about the 357 magnum being an unethical choice for deer hunting. You made a blanket statement here, and I merely made the same type of blanket statement in my reply to this post.

The fact is, if you are a true hunter, you can consistently make "humane" kills on deer or any other game no matter what you have in your hands. In my younger days as a teenager I killed quite a few deer cleanly with different assorted (and very unusual) things even a baseball bat. This was not done as a stunt, but out of necessity, and every single one was a very quick kill. Yes, each one of these took a lot of work on my part, patience, and if I must say, a good bit of stealth, and skill, but that's where the actual "hunting" comes into play. The point I'm trying to make is that you can kill deer, or any other animal cleanly with just about anything, and you can do it consistently to boot. You just have to modify your methods to take into account the limitations of your weapon of choice.

I understand human nature probably better than the majority of people do, and it's human nature to do things the easiest way. That mentality is the reason we have huge calibers, outrageous complicated bows, and an overwhelming array of hunting goodies that fellows not only buy, but become utterly dependent on. Yes, they do make hunting easier, and in some cases they're necessary like bean field shooting, and such, but I think it's sad that so many people go their whole life, and never feel the satisfaction of a truly bare bones, up close, and personal hunting experience.

No bad feelings or nothing here, just trying to convey to you my thinking on the subject.

RollTide · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2007, 09:32:51 PM »

I don't sense any bad feelings or anything like that from you. I don't have any either. I think one reason most don't gain the exceptional hunting skills you have is that we have never had to do it out of necessity. Another is that most don't have time to develop the skills that you have obviously taken time to develop. My hat is off to you if you can sneak up on a deer with a baseball bat. I know the Inuits in the Artic sneak up on sleeping polar bear and shoot them in the eye with a 22. I would just get killed doing something like that. I hunt when I can the way I can. I am a little jealous of people who have more time for it. I am afraid I still have to put killing polar bear with a 22, deer with a baseball bat or a 4" 357 at 75 yards in the stunt category. Not that rare people like yourself can't do it repeatedly, but because for the other 99% of the people in the world it would just be dumb luck to do something like that and would likely end up with a wounded animal 99% of the time. That is why I made the blanket statement I did, because it is probably true for 99% of people 99% of the time. I truly do admire you if you can do the things you say, and I have no reason to doubt you, but you must realize that you are the exception and not the rule. For anyone without your level of skill to try and imitate your feats would be at best foolhardy. I knew a guy once that killed a deer with a slingshot. He hit it in the head with a lug nut at about 30 yards and it fell over the cliff it was standing on. That was one of those "perfect conditons" you were talking about earlier. That man could have made that exact shot 100 times in a row without a miss. I have seen him hit aerial targets as high and as far as I could throw them and for as long as I could throw them with a homemade wood and scrap rubber slingshot. I have known people like yourself who can do exceptional things, I just don't recommend them for us mere mortals.

Rest regards and admiration,

Roll Tide

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2007, 10:35:05 PM »

ft lbs of energy here we go again! Ft lbs arent what kills an animal. BLEEDING DOES! Put a hole through both lungs or the heart and a deer dies about right now. Put on through the liver and maybe youll need to do a short bit of tracking but its a dead deer. A 357 loaded with heavy cast or a tough skinned jacketed will easily blow through a deer taking out the heart or both lungs and kill a deer DEAD! Comparing it to a 22 hornet or even a 220 swift is ridiculous. The problem with the small bores is they are not designed to penetrate there designed to expand fast and take small game with in a violent way. Like Jerry ive taken a few heads of game with handguns and cast bullets. Not so many as him with the 357 as ive never been a big fan of it. Not because it isnt capable of doing the job, but because im more of a fan of the bigger and slower camp. ANY handgun hunter has to exercize a little more discression when it comes to taking a shot on a game animal then a rifle hunter does. You dont have the accuracy capabliltys that a rifle has and there much harder to shoot accurately. Shoot a deer in the guts with a 500 linebaugh and your going to have to track!! IVe passed on running shots with a rilfle and surely wouldnt attempt one with a handgun. Whitetail deer and even black bear are not hard to kill. Ive dumped them in there tracks with a well placed shot out of a 30 carbine and a 3220. Ive also spent the whole night tracking one that was shot to far back with a 8mm magnum by my brother in law. Worked out well though as that 8mag is now in my safe!!! A .357 will kill a deer. LIke Jerry said its a gun for an experienced handgun hunter not a beginner. But then if you dont have the mind set to use a handgun ethicaly no amount of power will make up for a poor shot. I guess you can say the same thing for a rifle. Shoot at running game with anything and eventually your going to leave a hurting and wounded animal to suffer an angonizing death in the woods.

jgalar · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2007, 03:49:24 AM »

Jerry: are baseball bats usually used during primitive season?
You used a wooden bat right! Don't tell me you wimped out and used one of those aluminum bats

I think the aluminum bats should be banned - too easy to kill dear with.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2007, 06:25:17 PM »

Quote from: jgalar on April 24, 2007, 03:49:24 AM

Jerry: are baseball bats usually used during primitive season?
You used a wooden bat right! Don't tell me you wimped out and used one of those aluminum bats
I think the aluminum bats should be banned - too easy to kill dear with.

It was actually an aluminum bat.

Rolltide,

I can assure you that the bat incident was far from a sneak up, and crack him in the head deal. For fear of legal implications I won't post the details here, but it was closer to a 35 mph collision than an actual hunt.

I have killed quite a few deer though that were close enough for a bat.

sachel.45 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 25, 2007, 06:36:31 AM »

sorry to stir up a mess here guys that wasn't my intention.

irold · « **Reply #20 on:** April 25, 2007, 12:48:34 PM »

By the sounds of it, I'm gonna be in the vast minority......but I agree with RollTide 100 %. Not much else to say.....For the average person, a 357 is marginal......well said, RollTide

only my opinion ....

Graybeard · « **Reply #21 on:** April 25, 2007, 05:56:11 PM »

While opinions are fine and everyone has one and all are welcome I have to wonder how much EXPERIENCE backs up those negative opinions? How many times have you actually used it on deer?

Larry Gibson · « **Reply #22 on:** April 26, 2007, 06:55:36 AM »

Quote from: Graybeard on April 25, 2007, 05:56:11 PM

Why opinions are fine and everyone has one and all are welcome I have to wonder how much EXPERIENCE backs up those negative opinions? How many times have you actually used it on deer?

Graybeard

In my LEO experience in NE Oregon I killed numerous deer (and elk) that had been injured along with a few dogs, sheep, goats and cattle. In places where civilian were watching a quick headshot with the .223or 7.62 rifle did the trick. However, most were in rural areas with no witnesses. I usually had a couple "test" guns along with me ( I had my own Blazer patrol vehicle and a locked container to keep them in). Thus I was able to test different calibers and loads on live deer. I used the .357 with 4 and 6" barrels quite a bit as many times my "back up" was an OSP Trooper and they carried 4" S&W .357s at the time. I or the other officer were able to pick and choose our shot and we mostly used heart/lung shots from different angles. With regards to .357s with 4" barrels. The 125 gr federal or Winchester HPs killed the deer noticeably quicker than any 150 gr or heavier bullet (SP, HP or cast). With 6" barrels those 150+ gr bullets that genuinely pushed 1400 fps were pretty much the equal of the 125s out of 4 and 6" barrels. I also observed that a softer cast 358156 which expanded pushed to 1400 fps killed quicker than the 358429 Kieth bullet in the 1300 fps range. We did not have the wide meplat bullets back then that we have today so I've no comparison of them. However, I did shoot a couple deer with the 358495 WC loaded pretty hot over Unique (right at 1300 fps out of the 6" barrel if I remember correctly) and it killed every bit as quickly as any bullet.

While a .357 with 4" barrel would not be my choice to hunt deer with I'd not have any problems shooting one if necessary. I do carry a 6" Ruger Security Six quite a bit and would have no compunctions of shooting a deer with it as I carry 125 XTP/FPs in it that are running 1690 fps. It in fact will kill deer and will give all the penetration necessary ( I don't do Texas heart shots).

In my previous posts regarding this matter you've probably noticed my recommendations on bullet type and weight are based on barrel length when discussing the .357, .41 an 44 magnums for hunting deer or larger big game. Usually the question centers around "what's the best" for a certain cartridge. Barrel length is a significant consideration in choosing a bullet/load for the intended purpose. Anyway, that's my experience.

Larry Gibson

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #23 on:** April 26, 2007, 02:12:48 PM »

Quote from: Larry Gibson on April 26, 2007, 06:55:36 AM

Quote from: Graybeard on April 25, 2007, 05:56:11 PM
Why opinions are fine and everyone has one and all are welcome I have to wonder how much EXPERIENCE backs up those negative opinions? How many times have you actually used it on deer?

Graybeard

In my LEO experience in NE Oregon I killed numerous deer (and elk) that had been injured along with a few dogs, sheep, goats and cattle. In places where civilian were watching a quick headshot with the .223or 7.62 rifle did the trick. However, most were in rural areas with no witnesses. I usually had a couple "test" guns along with me ( I had my own Blazer patrol vehicle and a locked container to keep them in). Thus I was able to test different calibers and loads on live deer. I used the .357 with 4 and 6" barrels quite a bit as many times my "back up" was an OSP Trooper and they carried 4" S&W .357s at the time. I or the other officer were able to pick and choose our shot and we mostly used heart/lung shots from different angles. With regards to .357s with 4" barrels. The 125 gr federal or Winchester HPs killed the deer noticeably quicker than any 150 gr or heavier bullet (SP, HP or cast). With 6" barrels those 150+ gr bullets that genuinely pushed 1400 fps were pretty much the equal of the 125s out of 4 and 6" barrels. I also observed that a softer cast 358156 which expanded pushed to 1400 fps killed quicker than the 358429 Kieth bullet in the 1300 fps range. We did not have the wide meplat bullets back then that we have today so I've no comparison of them. However, I did shoot a couple deer with the 358495 WC loaded pretty hot over Unique (right at 1300 fps out of the 6" barrel if I remember correctly) and it killed every bit as quickly as any bullet.

While a .357 with 4" barrel would not be my choice to hunt deer with I'd not have any problems shooting one if necessary. I do carry a 6" Ruger Security Six quite a bit and would have no compunctions of shooting a deer with it as I carry 125 XTP/FPs in it that are running 1690 fps. It in fact will kill deer and will give all the penetration necessary ( I don't do Texas heart shots).

In my previous posts regarding this matter you've probably noticed my recommendations on bullet type and weight are based on barrel length when discussing the .357, .41 an 44 magnums for hunting deer or larger big game. Usually the question centers around "what's the best" for a certain cartridge. Barrel length is a significant consideration in choosing a bullet/load for the intended purpose. Anyway, that's my experience.

Larry Gibson

Very insightful, and from my experiences, I can tell that you "definitely" have killed a few deer with the 357 magnum. You're absolutely right on the correlation between barrel length/velocity, and proper bullet choices. It's all about getting enough penetration, and causing enough damage to the vitals. This can be achieved with a lot of different bullet weights/styles as long as you're running them at the right velocity for the range of the shot.

Thanks for posting.