Author Topic: THE HUNTING DEBATE”  (Read 3956 times)

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Offline lucky guy

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2007, 09:37:26 AM »
Other than strict vegans, I've never had one be able to answer the question of why they are morally superior because they let somebody else kill the animals they serve at their table (and raise some of those animals under not so great conditions.)   

Other than the vegans, we are all part of killing animals for food.  My way is alot more respectful and dare I say spiritually connected with the real world than theirs.   

Illegitimus non carborundum!!  (Don't let the b - - - - - - 's wear you down!) You have nothing to apologize for.

Offline DakotaElkSlayer

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2007, 06:04:49 AM »
While we are at it, conservationist hunters, let's not get too chummy or trust pure leftist leaning envirowacko conservation groups that want to LIMIT access to wild areas, and if they could would in fact STOP all sport hunting (remember Arizona anyone?). 

Hmmm...who exactly are you talking about?  What do you mean by limiting access to wild areas? 

Jim
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

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Offline Tackleberry

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #62 on: November 28, 2007, 04:12:27 AM »
I have read reports that there are hunters and fisherman groups who are teaming with Environmental groups to work together for conservation. I don't have any problem with that except that purely environmental groups like the Sierra Club usually do not include Hunting within their idea of what should occur on land that has been set aside. I only caution hunters to realize that  purely environmental groups are usually anti gun and anti hunter.  Be careful.  True Wilderness areas set aside are accessible only by foot or by horseback, which does limit access. It could be argued that access limits on wilderness areas serves to keep out casual hunters, it does tend to favor Guided hunts for those who can afford them. I prefer  area set aside that everyone can use responsibly. Present National forests often have the best blend of conservation mindedness while allowing winter use by Snowmobilers, cross country skiers, and responsible summer use by ATV'ers, and hunting legal hunting seasons.   National Monuments proclamation was Bill Clinton's (and environmental group's) favorite method of ensuring that NO One can use an area recreationally. No hunting, no ATV's, minimal foot traffic, etc.

We just need to be very careful , as a group, of hunters and Gun Owners, who we support politically and who we team with to support conservation, a topic we should be intensively interested in.
David Berry
LCDR USN (ret)
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Offline alsatian

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #63 on: November 28, 2007, 09:35:45 AM »
I would be inclined to address this question along two lines.  The first line speaks to the morality of hunting, the second line speaks to my personal aesthetic of hunting.

If challenged by another that hunting was immoral, my reply would be, if eating meat is moral, then my killing deer and eating deer meat is moral.  Paying someone else to kill a cow so a beef roast can be purchased and cooked is not morally superior to killing a deer oneself and eating the deer meat.  I don't buy arguments that killing the deer is less moral than the slaughter house killing the cow because the killing means of the slaughter house are less painful: relative to causing pain to the deer, certainly the pain caused by the hunter killing the deer is a less painful death than that suffered by the deer in the wild -- being run to ground in deep snow by coyotes, suffering a slow, agonizing death from some trauma, suffering a slow, agonizing death from worn down teeth leading to starvation, a slow agonizing winter-kill death.  Deer don't die comfortable natural deaths well fed on their beds.  Taking the life of a deer before the natural term of its life is no more immoral than taking the life of a cow before the natural term of its life.  Hunting deer provides a positive benefit to society, in that it controls population numbers at a level which is appropriate (limit agricultural damages, limit car crashes and human injuries).

The above addresses, I think the question of morality.  Even if moral, however, why do I do it?  It would not be immoral to walk barefoot through a pile of cow manure, but that doesn't answer the question of why someone would voluntarily do this.  In the case of deer hunting, I voluntarily expend limited vacation time, expend significant amounts of money for non-resident hunting license, expend money on gasoline driving significant distances to the hunting state, rise from a comfortable bed at 4:30 AM, and undergo significant physical discomfort sitting in the cold and dragging a deer carcass up hill.  Why?  This is a more complicated question.  I enjoy the pleasure of eating excellent venison with good wine, but this is not a sufficient explanation of my motivation.  If this motivation were essential, I don't think I would go to the trouble or expense of deer hunting.  Simply, the experience of hunting -- the modality of being, of existence that I assume while hunting -- provides me with a deeply satisfying and meaniingful connection with my nature.  Your PETA friends would not like this, but we human beings are predators.  It is our nature to opportunistically hunt, kill, and consume animals.  Hunting connects me with this very real and essential aspect of my nature in a way that buying a non-descript slab of meat neatly packaged inside a see-through plastic wrapper in the store does not.  I derive immense satisfaction finding my way to my appointed ambush spot -- a spot that my clever brain has calculated is well chosen for remaining unseen by a deer likely to walk within shooting range -- in the dark, to shoot the expected deer cleanly, to recover the dead body of the deer, to properly care for the meat so it does not spoil, to skin and cut up the meat in meal sized portions, and later to cook this meat myself.  This is the real thing.  I know that what I am doing is the same thing that has been done by hunters before me -- hunters on the frontier of America as it was developed, hunters who paid homage to Artimis the greek god of hunting in ancient greece, hunters such as Orion the hunter constellation, and yet earlier.  It is all the same thing, whether using a .25-06 cartridge packed with smokeless powder, whether using black powder and a ball, whether using a bow and arrow, whether using an atlatl and a spear.  This is why I am motivated to hunt, to restore my self knowledge and to understand myself better.

Offline alsatian

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #64 on: November 28, 2007, 09:57:50 AM »
I have made one post on this topic already.  I have some separate thoughts, a little more off the main line of this thread but I think appropriate.  Many people who did not grow up with hunters -- such as hunting fathers -- lack some basic understanding of hunting.  For example, I think lots of people equate hunting with trophy hunting -- hunting for animals almost exclusively for the purpose of collecting a head and putting it on the wall of your house.  At least traditionally and still today, I think, this kind of trophy hunting is not central to hunting.  Just killing an animal to have the head mounted on the den wall seems even to me a pretty poor execuse for killing an animal.  What is missing from this description is the recovery and enjoyment of the meat and the richly spiritual and/or character strengthening aspect of hunting.  If people grow up with a hunting father or hunting brother or hunting sister they understand these other aspects more holistically.  If it is hoped to speak to these anti-hunting people, it is key to try to get some of these messages across to them.  Just as there are some PETA people who callously killed stray animals that were supposed to have been placed in homes, and that these were exceptions rather than the rule of behavior among PETA members, so the few hunters who are motivated only by taking a trophy are exceptions and not the common hunter.  We do eat meat.  Meat is healthy for us and provides valuable protein.  It is in our nature to consume and benefit from meat in a manner in which we are not constructed by nature to consume and benefit from bark of trees, for example.  The experience of hunting is a very full and rich experience for hunters -- combining all kinds of behaviors, skills, emotions, problems which are decoupled and unrelated to our urban lives.  It is the totality of that experience that hunters enjoy and crave.  I have been back from deer hunting just about 5 days now.  I am again struck by how different hunting is from my day-to-day live back in my suburb.  I find myself making mistakes and buying into self-fulfilling negative thoughts that I need to rebuff and resist to improve my hunting prospects.  it is, to some extent, a psychological battle with self to be a disciplined and successful hunter.  And these battles with self don't ressemble those I have back in the suburbs.  I'm sure this experience is good for me, makes me a more fully developed human being, a wiser human being.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #65 on: November 29, 2007, 01:56:44 AM »
meat vs. head hunters ?
now we must choose sides amongst ourselves indeed a very slippery slope to travel !
i think it was old BEN Franklin who uttered " we hang together or surly we will hang apart "
Often the head hunter pays more back into the sport than the meat hunter , not something to sneer at !
If one takes the time to check history they would see that many of the great names in nature were hunters many hunted to collect animals for study or display so the world would have a record of the critters living on it . Today we collect examples of the best a group of critters can offer . When game control is the goal and destruction of the animal must take place the head hunter is often as effective tool as the meat hunter and often together they come up short of total control in some areas !
to take the opposite path , one could say the meat hunter shooting anything and every thing he sees does more damage than selective hunting to a group of animals in any given area !
No i feel it better to not make up a classic reason to hunt but to recognize the value of hunting to each hunter is different ,much as the reason for going to and choosing a church is different for each of us .
when the bow , ml ,gun , crossbow and trappers come together as one and respect each others choice of equipment and reason to hunt we may stand a chance of protecting our right tho hunt until then peta and friends stand a chance to clean our collective clocks !

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND WARS ARE WON IN THE TRENCHES NOT FROM ALMIGHTY HIGH PLATFORMS SPOUTING UNATTAINABLE GOALS !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Tackleberry

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #66 on: November 29, 2007, 03:52:39 AM »
Meat versus trophy?

I am, therefore I hunt.  There are two literal results that I would like to see out of a hunt (1) harvesting a deer for my freezer and (2) if possible, take a real trophy animal that I can be proud of and display. On my recent hunt in Wisconsin, I had a buck tag (with an opportunity for earn a buck) and four doe tags. There were four of us and about 200 deer within a square mile of us. So the first weekend, My adage was, if it's brown, it's down. If I shot a doe first, I had meat to take home to Florida, if I shot the Buck first, I had meat to take home to Florida, (and) perhaps a nice trophy.

I have never taken a buck with a big rack, so far, I've had to settle because of time restraints etc and pretty much take a legal buck when he presents himself to me.

One of our hunting party feels differently, and I respect his reasoning. He says, "I have taken big deer several times. I am only interested now in taking the Exceptional buck. The Boone and Crockett quality buck. I'll leave the 9 and ten pointers for you guys."     

We know for a fact that he passed on 6 bucks that were pretty damn good bucks. How do we know, because other members of our group killed some of the bucks right after they walked through his area. He does harvest does for freezer meat.

Both types of hunters can live together quite comfortably and respect each others viewpoint. If a trophy hunter wants to pass on a 9 point, kick it out to me, I will be more than happy to hang it on my wall, and enjoy some backstrap steaks to boot. 
David Berry
LCDR USN (ret)
NRA Life member
Texan by birth and the grace of GOD
OLE MISS graduate

Offline alsatian

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #67 on: November 29, 2007, 09:32:51 AM »
On the subject of meat versus trophy, some people are just not very into deer meat.  I can understand that, particularly if you don't cook it properly (tough, dry venison is not very appetizing) or if it is ground venison (just how interesting is any ground meat? not very interesting to me).  If you are not too keen on eating the venison, boy it is a lot of trouble to field dress, drag, check, process or pay to process the dead deer.  Under those conditions I could see someone who liked the activity of deer hunting -- being in the woods with a license and a well tuned rifle at the crack of dawn, the sharp smell of the woods in the fall -- being very picky about what they shoot.  But this does not characterize my interests.

Also, while I do not disparage any fellow hunter's interests or motivations, I thought this thread started on the topic of explaining ourselves to non-hunters, most particularly to anti-hunters such as PETA members.  If trophy hunting -- head hunting as was the articulation of one earlier posting -- is the type of hunting preferred, how is this explained or rationalized to the PETA member?  Maybe there is no explanation for them.  Sometimes things are this way.  Explain mountain climbing to a couch potato?  Might not be possible, might be the better part of wisdom to not even attempt the explanation.  But I thought that was the drift, and that is why I went on at some length describing my motivation, not to assert that others must have the same motivation.

Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2007, 09:42:05 AM »
it would be an injustice to hunters , hunting and ones self to try and sugar coat , fabricate or in any way try to change hunting to make it more attractive to anti hunting people !
If ya can see it ya can hit it !

Offline Davemuzz

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2007, 01:46:47 PM »
Trying to explain hunting to a PETA member is like trying to explain to an extreme fundamentalist Muslim that he is in fact a crackpot.

Dave 

Offline dukkillr

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2007, 02:10:18 PM »
I'll be honest, I don't get it.  To me meat is a marginally unwanted byproduct of hunting.  Don't get me wrong, I don't waste meat, but it doesn't motivate me either.  I've always suggested that I don't think hunting is an economical source of meat.  I shoot does for population control, and otherwise I only shoot mature animals.  I haven't shot a jake or spike in years.  The day my heart doesn't pound in my chest when a big buck walks under my tree, is the day I'll hang it up.  For me that's what hunting is, chasing a rush.  Honestly, I feel sorry for those who don't feel that, because it's incredible. 

I think the comparison above to mountain climbing is a good analogy.  While I'd never risk my life in an extreme climb, I suspect the rush those people get from doing what they love is similar.  And there's no question the stakes only get higher.  I grew up duck hunting.  I'd get the rush when a group of mallards piled in or a huge bunch of canadas got dead right.  Then I started deer hunting and I got the rush whenever I got a buck in my scope.  Then any deer with a bow, then any buck with a bow, then any mature buck.  After hunting caribou, elk, hogs, turkeys, mulies, and whitetails in the last 15 years I can say that getting that same high has been increasingly difficult.  The animals seem to get bigger and more far flung.  But yesterday when that great big buck came and ran off that nice 8 pt, I can promise you my heart was pounding.  You can't buy that feeling, and if you've never felt it that's a loss.

The rush seems to be directly related to the difficulty in getting the opportunity.  For instance, a 400 class bull in a fence repulses me somewhat, while drawing on a 400 bull in the wild would make my heart explode.  A 110 class buck is pretty common, and it doesn't get me too excited, however a 160 class buck is a different deal.  Getting a great show from a mature tom is great, and sneaking one is a distant second.  I can't really explain it beyond that.  It seems to be that the harder it is to accomplish, the greater the thrill.

When I can't get that feeling anymore, well, maybe I'll take up mountain climbing.

Offline rebAL

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Re: THE HUNTING DEBATE”
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2007, 03:48:22 AM »
Beg, borrow, or steal November issue of National Geographic of all magazines.  Save the article if you can.  I've never seen better pro-hunting arguments listing facts & figures.