Author Topic: Alternatives to Goex (Read 3072 times)

Preacher_of_Boom · « **on:** April 21, 2007, 03:16:56 AM »

How do Shuetzen and Skirmish powders compare to Goex? I've seen Shuetzen used with good results on youtube videos (especially cannonmn's), so i expect that it is good. Is Skirmish powder only useful for blank fire or can it push a ball? It's a lot cheaper!

Thanks!

Rickk · « **Reply #1 on:** April 21, 2007, 04:11:13 AM »

I use 1F Skirmish alot for blanks. I have been using it alot lately in an old 12 G double barrel as well.

Behind a ball, I use Goex Cannon grade, making the assumption that the pressure is lower than 1F. While it costs more, I am using way smaller charges behind a ball so it does't really matter.

If you order from Powder, Inc, you can mix granulations and brands in 5 # increments. As long as it adds up to 25# total, you get the 25# rate on all the powders you order at that time. Their advertised prices include shipping and hazmat fees. So, you can order say 15# of Skirmish for blanks and 10# of Goex Cannon for Ball.

There is no guarantee that one brand will work exactly like another brand, so whatever you do, reduces charges at first and pay attention to what happens. The Lyman BP handbook actually has load charts that say that for some guns, 3F produced more pressure than 4F of the same brand, so intuition does not always apply.

Unless you have a thousand yard range to shoot on, why push things to the limit?

missouricannonworks · « **Reply #2 on:** April 21, 2007, 05:44:54 AM »

I agree with Rickk the Skirmish is great for the blanks, the only balls that we have fired are Golf balls and the results were disastrous a little poof and the ball flew about 20 yds. Turn around with Goex and the expected results are achieved. Now we have not tested with larger or heavier balls.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #3 on:** April 21, 2007, 07:24:35 AM »

I was thinking of buying 5# Skirmish and 5# Goex, but it looks like it is better to buy 10# Goex and get a price per lb. that is equal to the 5# price for Skirmish--about $15 right now. Searches for information on Skirmish powder didn't tell me if it worked for a projectile, so it's good to know your experience with it. I would buy 10 lbs. of Skirmish if it served all purposes. I wondered why everyone seems to use Goex instead of Skirmish, KIK, Schuetzen, etc. I figured it was the nice red can!

Rickk · « **Reply #4 on:** April 21, 2007, 07:48:16 AM »

Looks like Powder, Inc is out of Cannon grade again. There was a shortage last year due to a plant explosion... apparently things are still tight. They had some a couple months ago, but are out again. They say to check back in the middle of May.

1F is in stock in both Goex and Skirmish

Maine Powder House does not appear to have it either.

Play with the math before you place your order. If you ordered 10# of Goex 1F it would be $147. If you tack on 15 pounds of Skirmish it will cost you less that $100 more. You are paying a 25# hazmat fee no matter how much you order, so ordering 25# really saves $$.

I e-mailed Powder, Inc last year to find out more about their "Skirmish Powder"..

here is their reply:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Rick,

Skirmish is a Chinese powder. We have sold about 12000 pounds to
re-enactors for use in cannons. We have sold a few hundred pounds to people
firing bowling balls and small projectiles from cannons. It is about 10%
less powerful than GOEX, but most of my re-enactors don't care because of
the price. It ignites good and does burn clean for black powder.
I also have mounted cowboy action shooters making blanks with it.
Let me know if I can help you with any other information.
Jerry Dean

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #5 on:** April 21, 2007, 08:06:49 AM »

Thanks for the advice. This could get expensive!

But, in the interest of long-term savings I might be forced to buy more powder.

I really doubt they would advise a person to up the Skirmish load by 10% so it compares to the Goex load? It could be tried I guess. I won't do it, though.

Double D · « **Reply #6 on:** April 21, 2007, 08:13:10 AM »

Preacher were are you in relationship to Arkansas...Powder Inc. Might be a neighbor

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #7 on:** April 21, 2007, 08:43:13 AM »

I am in NW Alabama, and I visit my parents in Memphis, so that is a possibility. I will have to see how close it is to Maaaamphis. That would take care of shipping, and I assume it would remove the hazard fee, too. That's worth checking into!

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #8 on:** April 21, 2007, 08:51:34 AM »

Mapquest says Powder, Inc. in Clarksville, Arkansas is 7 hours from my home and 3 1/2 from Memphis. It wouldn't save much, I guess over the gasomoline it would take, but it might be interesting.

Double D · « **Reply #9 on:** April 21, 2007, 09:23:06 AM »

How about Owens Cross Roads, AL, how far is that?

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #10 on:** April 21, 2007, 01:39:25 PM »

The all-knowing Mapquest says that it is about an 1 hr. 20 minutes from my home to Owens Crossroads. I live about 7 miles out of Moulton, AL. Is there something important in OC? It's pretty close. I used to drive to Huntsville 2 to 4 times a week when I studied at U. of Alabama in Huntsville.

Double D · « **Reply #11 on:** April 21, 2007, 07:03:29 PM »

Well if you visit the links to the powder suppliers on the Cannon resource list and look at their distributors you will find there is a blackpowder distributor in Owens Cross Roads.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #12 on:** April 21, 2007, 07:41:48 PM »

Quote from: Double D on April 21, 2007, 07:03:29 PM

Well if you visit the links to the powder suppliers on the Cannon resource list and look at their distributors you will find there is a blackpowder distributor in Owens Cross Roads.

And, the truth shall set you free! Well, you know I've got my mind on tomorrow's sermons.

Thanks for pointing this out. I will call them Monday and find out what they say. I knew there must be something important there. I thought you were going to tell me to go to Greybeard's house and borrow some. I noticed he has the same area code--256.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #13 on:** April 24, 2007, 03:46:09 AM »

I called Luna Tech of Owens Crossroads yesterday. Their website is pyropak.com. Marsha answered the phone and was very nice. She said that they are discontinuing black powder and only have cartridge and 4f left--about 25 lbs. Guess who she recommended I call? She gave me the number for Powder, Inc!!!

Thanks for the information, though. We tried! It's too bad they aren't carrying the good stuff anymore, but at least I know where to go for sure now.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #14 on:** April 27, 2007, 08:31:17 AM »

I bought 20 lbs. Skirmish 1F and 5 lbs. Goex 1F today. Thanks for the helpful answers. Now, I will have to shoot cannons forever to use it up, though! About $8.50 per lb.

7000 gr x 25 = 175000 / 400 gr per firing = 437 shots

/ 200 per = 874 shots

HOLY MOLY!

Rickk · « **Reply #15 on:** April 27, 2007, 09:37:25 AM »

Consider having a place to put it prepared other than inside your house or garage.

If no other regulatory body in your state cares, your house insurance co probably will.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #16 on:** April 27, 2007, 05:21:10 PM »

Rickk,

I looked at the Orange Book rules this morning, and it looks like a substantial magazine is required.

http://www.info-central.org/regulatory/orangebook/storage.html

So, I'm putting in one of these!!!!

Actually, I've been trying to figure out an inexpensive way to do it. I looked at some of the small truck tool boxes that are made of steel, but they are only 18-gauge, it seems. The regs call for 12-gauge for type 2 storage. That is pretty heavy. But, I guess if it keeps one from biting the big one early, it might be worth it!

Any ideas?

And, what size is a 1 lb. can of powder?

GGaskill · « **Reply #17 on:** April 27, 2007, 05:38:41 PM »

A GOEX can is 5 13/16 inches high plus 7/16" for the cap, 3 7/8" wide and 1 3/4" thick. All dimensions are over the widest points.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #18 on:** April 27, 2007, 06:36:51 PM »

Here are a couple of Type 4 that can be used. They are 18 gauge. Type 2 is 12 ga., but is not necessary for low explosives (from what I can tell). I gotta learn to weld...

http://www.usexplosive.com/category_s/8.htm

And,

http://www.merlinmissiles.com/explosives_magazine.html

Probably, a little mo' expensive --> http://www.armagcorp.com/indoor_mag_com.htm

Another --> http://www.mainepowderhouse.com/catalog_safe.php

GGaskill, thanks for the dimensions. So, a 5 can wide x 5 can deep space would be about 20 x 9 x 7 for the interior, I think.

GGaskill · « **Reply #19 on:** April 27, 2007, 08:40:20 PM »

A dozen cans is about 8" x 10.5", so two dozen would be 16" x 10.5", 28 cans would be 16 x 12.25, 32 cans 16 x 14.

Cat Whisperer · « **Reply #20 on:** April 28, 2007, 02:06:15 AM »

Quote from: Preacher_of_Boom on April 27, 2007, 05:21:10 PM

...

Any ideas?
...

There is a principle you might consider that is used where they make the powder (Radford Army Ammunition Plant). The buildings are made with very strong walls and a roof that is "expendable" that is, it will come off in an explosion, but the buildings next to it will be somewhat protected.

You could, not saying it would be a "good" idea, and it does sound a little paranoid, dig a 4' deep hole with a water-proof container. Worst case -- if it blew up it would be mostly up with the ground absorbing the blast. They even make a device for dumping dog do-do into that goes into the ground and has a foot-operated lid that would be more socially acceptable than what might look like a terrorist's arms cache.

Rickk · « **Reply #21 on:** April 28, 2007, 03:08:28 AM »

Anyone know what thickness the walls of a 20mm ammo can is? They are big and only $20 at the surplus stores.

I keep mine in them (mainly to keep the cans from rusting), but the 20mm cans are inside an 8 inch thick solid concrete walled 4x4 shed out back.

I can wander out back and measure one this afternoon if no one has one handier.

I have heard od old refrigerators being used (ammo cans inside them), ammo cans in sheads, wooden boxes

Someplace on the ATF's web site is a link to the actual regulations, rather than the summary linked to. I couldn't find it quickly just now, but will try later, I seem to recall something about 1 inch thcik nominal wood portable magazines as well, but havn't checked in a while... who knows if it has changed.

I guess my original question was focused mainly at suggesting you don't keep it inside your house.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #22 on:** April 28, 2007, 11:30:42 AM »

Here they are--
http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/index.htm
http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/subpartk.pdf

I have a detached workshop where I planned to keep the powder. I definitely won't keep it in the house, though I have 2 lbs. of pyrodex under my bed in a box with muzzleloading supplies. 209 primers are not in the same box, though. (I need to move that stuff out) I don't know about the 20mm cans, but I use the 50 cal. cans for ammo. It's too bad there is no allowance for putting a box within a box within a box... That would make it easier. I have thought about putting a cinder block structure out back. The idea of digging a hole sounds good. A combination of a hole, short cinder block walls filled with sand and ammo cans might work. I need a tornado shelter anyway! The only problem is that I am a preacher. I've been at my first work for about 4 years and I hope to stay a while longer, but one never knows. I hate to put a lot of work into anything that cannot be taken with me. Things are going well, so this is probably not an issue. It would look like a well pump house so nobody would think I am a redneck terrierist.

Portability makes a type 4 box look good. It could be my day box also. At $270 shipped, this one looks good –>http://www.usexplosive.com/category_s/8.htm

I'll check into the 20mm cans, and see how much a small semi-subterranean (<-- I like that word) structure would cost to build.

Blaster · « **Reply #23 on:** April 28, 2007, 12:46:59 PM »

Perhaps I'm WAY off base here, but don't you have to have a pretty large amount of BP before you have to be "real" concerned about it's storage?

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #24 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:15:02 PM »

I don't know. I'm new to it.

It is probably similar to my 1200 rounds of .223 and the 600 rounds of 9mm and the 45 ACP and

?

I can imagine what people would say, but anyone who shoots knows that ammo comes and goes quickly. "Preacher's hidden cache of ammo," the headline reads.

I just don't want to end up in the news as the "typical crazy preacher" who blew up the whole community and will never see his kids again because he is imprisoned.

I'm only 30---got at least 20 more years before the heart attack gets me!

By the way, I've asked my wife jokingly several times in past months if she will snap and shoot me in the back. And, we know that family! A minister and his family is looked at differently and closely.

I'm not trying to be a stickler for the rules, though. If I believe my family will be protected in the event the worst happens (car bursts into flames and burns down the workshop) and that I will have done my best to keep from being vilified, I will be satisfied.

I wondered whether I should even say that I ordered some powder on the internet, but they have my information anyway and will be welcome to take a look. But, I don't know what 25 lbs. of undirected powder will do.

Let common sense prevail.

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2007, 01:17:49 PM »

And, I have to add, Get thee hence Satan!

Rickk · « **Reply #26 on:** April 28, 2007, 02:49:01 PM »

If you go the block wall route, unless you are into laying block, which requires patience - something I lack...

Quickcrete (one of the pre-mixed concrete in bags company, makes a product called "Quickwall". You stack the blocks dry, and then trowel Quickwall on the inside and the outside. About an 1/8 inch coat is all you need, although I did 2 coats... about 1/4 inch. It is fiberglass reinforced. They claim it is as strong as mortar between the joints. It also resists moisture transfer.

So, dig a hole about a foot or two deep... pour concrete about level with the ground, stack 2 layers of blocks, fill them a layer and a half full of concrete to make a floor, stack more blocks to the desired height, smear quickwall inside and out, put on either a masonary or sand ceiling, and a roof to keep water out, line the inside with plywood, put shelves inside, add a 1 inch thick steel door with 2 locks, make sure you have some waterproof, fireproof ventilation to keep humidity under control, and you are legal to 50# with no ATF permits if it is for personal use

For added strength, slide 1 inch epoxy coated rebar down the holes in the wall blocks and fill with concrete.

It theoretically might look something like this when it is done....

Preacher_of_Boom · « **Reply #27 on:** April 28, 2007, 05:37:11 PM »

Quote from: Rickk on April 28, 2007, 02:49:01 PM

you are legal to 50# with no ATF permits if it is for personal use

I've known some guys who should have had an ATF permit to use a building of that particular shape!

Sounds like a good way to git r done.

missouricannonworks · « **Reply #28 on:** April 28, 2007, 06:36:13 PM »

I think all of these are great ideas This is where it is kept round here!?

Just kidding But I think laying the block would be much easier!

Rickk · « **Reply #29 on:** April 29, 2007, 01:13:52 AM »

Quickwall can be hard to find. Lowes is supposed to carry it by contract with Quickcrete corp, but sometimes they don't carry it because it is a slow mover. If they carry quickcrete brand in your area, but not quickwall, and won't order it for you, call the factory. I did, the president of Quickcrete called me back, asked me where the nearest Lowes was, and then had it driven there special the next day. The arrogant manager at Lowes who couldn't be bothered with ordering it has a total different attitude after the Quickcrete president called and chewed him out for not adhearing to their distribution contract. He also got caught carring a different brand than Quickcrete, something they wern't supposed to be doing.