Maybe the truth will finally be told..

[S.S.]

Yahoo Headline today (below)
Maybe now the congress will make ALL of the stories about how crappy
a weapon our military is issued public knowledge instead of Letting the military cover it up.
Maybe Jessica Lynch actually got to testify honestly to congress
*************************************************************************

NEWSWEEK: Why did you decide to testify?
Jessica Lynch: Mainly it was about me just getting out the truth. I’ve spent the past four years trying to tell everybody the real truth, and not the stories they put together. They were false, ya know?

What was the greatest misinformation about you?
The whole Rambo story, that I went down fighting. It just wasn’t the truth.

So what really happened?
I didn’t even get a shot off. My weapon had jammed. And I didn’t even get to fire. A rocket-propelled grenade hit the back of our [Humvee], which made Lori [Piestewa], my friend, lose control of the vehicle, and we slammed into the back of another truck in our unit
****************************************************************************

[fastbike]

Come on, Jessica's weapon jams and you're off on a crusade. What weapon was Jessica talking about? What did it jam? What weapon never jams?

Yahoo Headline today (below)
Maybe now the congress will make ALL of the stories about how crappy
a weapon our military is issued public knowledge instead of Letting the military cover it up.
Maybe Jessica Lynch actually got to testify honestly to congress
*************************************************************************

NEWSWEEK: Why did you decide to testify?
Jessica Lynch: Mainly it was about me just getting out the truth. I’ve spent the past four years trying to tell everybody the real truth, and not the stories they put together. They were false, ya know?

What was the greatest misinformation about you?
The whole Rambo story, that I went down fighting. It just wasn’t the truth.

So what really happened?
I didn’t even get a shot off. My weapon had jammed. And I didn’t even get to fire. A rocket-propelled grenade hit the back of our [Humvee], which made Lori [Piestewa], my friend, lose control of the vehicle, and we slammed into the back of another truck in our unit
****************************************************************************

[Brett]

Don't they still teach our soldiers how to clear a jammed weapon?

[elmer]

Was she maintaining her weapon and practicing with it. All too often soldiers that aren't front line have a tendency to think they will never need the weapon and don't keep it serviced or keep up their proficiency.

It's no secret that the M-16's aren't a M-1 or M1A. They started making tradeoffs on complexity to get firepower. That was because many that go into the service haven't hunted and have never fired a weapon in their life. The country in general isn't like it was during WWII so comprises are made.

[Keith L]

Weapons recovered from the battlefield in all wars since firearms have been used have been found in inoperable condition.  I remember seeing civil war rifles with six or seven charges stuck in the barrel because the "shooter forgot to replace the cap, jammed guns for many reasons on indian wars battle fields,  broken guns from WW1 and 2,  Viet Nam M16s full of mud or improperly assembled, etc.   I have also seen estimates that less than 50% of the people in firefights ever fire their weapons.  So who knows what happened.

What this story does show, however, is that in an effort to put our best foot forward all of us and the rest of the world were subjected to propaganda.  Governments that use propaganda tend in time to start believing what they are saying.  And that is truly dangerous.

[ironglow]

   Did she even have a "shot" in the weapon ? Wouldn't accuse her of anything because there is no way of knowing..but often, troops that are not in combat arms units.. are just not all that familiar with the weapons they carry..(or have stashed in a case or "behund the seat" for the last couple weeks).

   She is testifying to get "the truth" out..why before congress ? Since it was the mass media that hyped the story..shouldn't she be complaining to them ?

   Actually, I cannot recall even the media referring to her as any "Sgt Rock" ! As I recall, they treated her like a "poor little teenage country girl..held prisoner by terrorists". It was the rescuers ..and the brave Iraqi that led her rescuers to her that was really credited with courage and seemingly, appropriately so...

[Dee]

The weapons issue points here are valid, as to the possible suspect poor maintenance. However, the white house, and the pentagon did in fact HYPE the going down fighting story of Lynch. This is public record. It is ridiculous to pretend that they did not. They did. They needed heroes with faces, and so invented one.
Also they "THE GOVERNMENT" LIED about the Pat Tillman death unashamedly. And have gotten caught. To defend a poorly maintained weapon is one thing, but to defend an out and out lie and blame it on an over exuberant press is an entirely different matter. Did the press run with the story? Yes, but they got it from the government, just as they got the Tillman lie.

[ironglow]

  I guess I missed the heroic part of Jessica Lynch..

  Yes, the Army did mislead about the death of Pat Tillman ! The History channel had an explanation with a reenacted film about how Pat Tillman died. According to the history channel film..it was clear cut "friendly fire"..somewhat brought on by an Iraqi liasion fighting alongside Tillman that insisted on wearing tribal dress and recklessly exposing himself on the hilltop.
  Still, even if that helped to provoke the friendly fire..it was difficult to justify why the fire continued for so long a period.
 
  Much like the Duke Lacrosse players..they and the Tillmans had enough $$ and clout to chase down the truth. It is mind boggling to think of how many troops over just the last 100 years that have fallen to friendly fire..

  I worked with a fellow in the mid-nineties, whose brother was found dead at a post here in the states. Seems the 1st Lieut was out for his usual morning run on a dirt road.
  He was found some distance off the road..dead ..with somewhere in the neighborhood of 26 stab wounds..
 
It was listed as suicide..even though some wounds were in his back !
   
  I do recall that during my time in the Army..the brass would much rather have an easily explained dismissal of an embarrassing situation , than to pursue the inconvenient..
   
     Remember the old saying.."Don't make waves"..

[Dee]

Yes Ironglow, the Army does hype things for publicity, but isn't it odd that they almost ignored the country boy from Kansas whom was in the Lynch convoy and was also captured, AND treated very roughly. His story was told only one or two times and he was never interviewed one on one. His convoy mates told his story.
He, armed with the same type of weapon Lynch and the others were, but with much shooting and hunting experience killed at least 7 Iraqis, before running out of ammo, and then fought with the weapon as a club, until he was overpowered and beaten. While in captivity he sang THE ANGRY AMERICAN song by Toby Keith at the top of his lungs everyday, and all day in defiance of his captors.
This young man is one to "ride the river with" but, he never was publicized. His image wasn't romantic enough for the pentagon to push.
Or how about the young soldier that was driving the Captain in a hummer when ambushed. He drove his hummer and the captain to safety while emptying two thirty round magazines out the window with his M4. He took a round thru the window and lost his weapon, the captain gave him his, and he continued to drive and fight. The pentagon and GW would be better off sticking to the truth rather than romantics. These two were real fighting men, whom obviously knew how to operate their weapons system.
My son has had 4 different M4s in 3 separate combat tours and has complained of nothing more than an occasional double feed when practicing with dirty British ammo, which his group of the 82nd will not carry on combat patrols.

[SHOOTALL]

A lie is a lie ! but why ? a reason ?
Maybe the American public has been sheltered from the reality of war for so long it is felt if we are given a few tid-bits every so often  we won't get involved  , i watched a show where people were ask to sign a petition to stop the use of H2O and most did ! no wonder we get lied to ! The dumbing down of America in action ! and no that does not make it right !

[ironglow]

  Dee;

  It is a sad fact of life that the Army I knew did have a tendancy to sweep things under the rug..just as many large corporations, unions and educational institutions tend to want to do.
 
   Some self-centered individuals hate to have their "career path" interrupted...

   You're absolutely right; in that our true heroes get too little credit for their courage and service that goes far beyond the meagre wages they get..
  Just about 25 miles (as the crow flies) is the family of a young Marine Medal of honor winner. I say the family..because Jason Dunham was awarded the medal posthumously..
  There was a fitting ceremony where the president had the family to the Capitol Building (or the White House)..but i don't know just how much was covered by the media.
   Seems the media doesn't like to show the noble, heroic and decent things that our military folks do..apparently it doesn't fit their "agenda".
  Hollywood, who at one time made made movies such as "Guadalcanal Diary",  "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo"  and " Sands of Iwo Jima"..cannot seem to be able to produce a single patriotic film.
  They would it seems, rather make movies about drugs, sex, murder, adultry, homosexuality and other depravity.
   I guess that demonstrates who's running the show in Hollywood !

  I tend to think the Pentagon does give info on our genuine heroes but the media simply WILL NOT publish them..just as we rarely see the really great things our troops do for schools, hospitals and orphanages in Iraq..doesn't fit their agenda.

  If the media wanted to find out about our heroes they would...they sure found out about the problems at Abu Gharib and Haditha !  Our sorry media has no professional ethics. They don't have any concept of how to report in an unbiased manner...

[Keith L]

When both of the stories that started this thread were news our press was "embedded" with the troops.  They published or showed everything they were spoon-fed by the Public Information Officers of the units they were with.  Going back a few months prior to that the American media was a co-conspirator with the neocon administration in getting us into this quagmire.  Now with 3300+ of our best young people dead, and the latest estimate of our cost for this nation building adventure near one trillion dollars the extent of the lies is coming into the light.  And today four years after our commander in chief declared victory we are in deeper than ever. 

One of my co-workers told us today that all this isn't really lies but mis-information.  His claim is that had we not been told all this stuff we wouldn't have supported this glorious war.  Go figure.

[SHOOTALL]

Somewhere i heard thou shall not bear false witness ?

[Lost Okie]

Let me see, Audy Murphy, a hero in his own right, but moved into Hollywood star status by our media..Think back guys, this is nothing new.  Its been going on for a century but now, the so called patriots of our congress (Spelled MORONS) are whining just like the Mid Eastern world new they would.  They don't have the intestinal fortitude for the long haul.  Bush is not my favorite person, but where do you think we would be if Kerry had been elected???  Don't know, that's easy just vote for Billiary and you will find out....  Now, I do feel better.

[unspellable]

I'd like to hear a bit more about the "jammed" weapon.  It occurs to me that having an RPG go off under your arse while trying to clear a jam might be a bit distracting.  Followed by a collision.  There's a lot going down in a short time frame.

[SHOOTALL]

they are all hero's , it was just her day to be THE HERO !

[Dee]

Wait until your in a fight and afterwards, the investigator takes your weapon "as is", and may have to send it to forensic, "as is" and asks you how many shots you fired, and you can't tell him, cause you don't remember it happened so fast, and you were just trying to survive.
Also, I have owned and fired the great M1A (M14), and I would like to see how it performed day in and day out in battle conditions, when it was full of sand. It has an open bold with NO DUST COVER to keep blowing sand out. I believe it might be telling, to the constant critique of the PROVEN M4 and M16. JMHO

[SHOOTALL]

Would there be more sand there than on the islands in WW2 or north Africa in WW2 where the M1 shined ? or the M1 carbine ? if the weapon was in a vehicle , and they had come from a camp wouldn't it be reasonable to expect the weapon to be clean and functional ? I admire all who serve but some take survival more serious than others , like a clean weapon !

[Dee]

Well SHOOTALL, I believe that is the crux of the entire matter.

[superjay01]

About the jammed weapon issue. My friend from high school just returned from Iraq, his second tour, and from what he says the new Israel made AR's is what they are having the problem with as far as jamming not the Colts.

[SHOOTALL]

Dee , i agree with the m14 , had 2 ar's don't see the magic ! and if they get it to work 100 % then ya got a nice ground hog gun a .223 ! I guess i feel like when we send men and women in to harms way they should have the means to survive and win no less !

[Dee]

SHOOTALL, my son is a Sgt in the 82nd Airborne IN BAGHDAD, fighting house to house. He also as I have stated had a combat tour in Afganistan, and this is he SECOND in Iraq. I AND HE believe he is very well armed. He carries an M4. The biggest enemy he has, is the politician sitting down terms he must fight by. Not the weapon. It is a machine that has been modified and improved over the years to what it is today. But, a machine MUST BE MAINTAINED. He (my son) was taught this at home, and in training. It is his life line. He and his men, are not experienceing these problems that are the topic here.
Jessica Lynch and the others were wounded while serving their country no doubt, but Richard Petty would have never won a race if the mechnics had not maintained the car. Jessica was a truck driver, with a minor in combat.
As far as the 223, we are not hunting cape buffalo here. We are hunting the thinnest skinned animal on the planet. Man! I have because of my 20 year past profession seen men shot with everything from a 22 short to a 12 guage up close. The 223 is more than enough, and has the extra advantage of more range.
As I said, the politician is the biggest obstacle the soldier faces. If it weren't for them, this war might have never happened.

[SHOOTALL]

DEE , first and for most thank your son for the job he and his men are doing , they are what makes this country great !
I agree with most of what you write , with the exception , a 223 does not have the range of a 308 or the down range energy , now on the thin skinned game you mention it is of little importance at the range most battles occur , but if the thin skinned game is behind cover then a more powerful round may be helpful ! IMHO ! I once read where SOS men tried 444 marlins to bust Viet Cong bunkers ( maybe where Barrett got the 50 idea ) > And since no one asked before they adopted the m-4 i realize how little my opinion means anyway . and will concede to your son's opinion since he has more experience on the M-4 than i !
Good luck !

[Dee]

SHOOTALL, there is a place for virtually every weapon ever divised by man, in todays, and yesterdays combat zone. The Afganies found that shooting a pure lead ball out of a muzzle loading rifle at the tail rotor of the elite Soviet Union assault helicopter many times resulted in the soft lead ball sticking to the tail roto like a mud ball might, throwing the tail rotor out of balance, and causing the helicopter to go down.
Yes, much experimentation has taken place over the years, for SPECIAL circumstances in war. I believe thru my extensive training, and use over a 20 year L.E. career of the M4 and it's predecessors, such as the CAR15, along with men such as my son's own testimony whom have FAR MORE trigger time in ACTUAL COMBAT CONDITIONS than I ever had, that the M4 is a GOOD COMPROMISE of a do it all weapon for the combat soldier. Is it perfect? Of course not, but I had rather carry 200 rounds of 223 in 30 round magazines, than 60 rounds of 308 in 20 round magazines, with little difference in weight.
War by yesterdays standards is very mobile. The enemy is harder to identify, and we have gone from trenches, to house to house. Speed and fast handling is truly of the essence. The recoil is very light causing recovery for follow up shots to result in a much quicker succession. Ballistic data matters very little if one gets a solid hit on an opponent.
The bottom line on every post on this thread is we are expressing our own OPINION of the weapon, based either on reading material, someone else's testimony, or by personal experience with the weapon. None of which is to say one is more right than the other. I have a totally opposite experience with the weapon than the media is portraying but with that said, I trust very little the media says anyway, whether it be CNN, FOX, or whom ever. I consider all to be entertainment with a little truth thrown in. One must merely pick out the style and view point the one wants to see and hear and pick a new media source according to one's taste.

[SHOOTALL]

DEE , i agree on the news !
the M-4 , I"LL wait and see !

[williamlayton]

HUMMMM!
Seems this jammed weapon thing has been discussed somewhere.
The M1 of WWII was not a silver bullet and had many encounters of failing at the wrong time.
I am still wondering what all the hype is about???
The military CHOOSES, most of the time, when and where they want publicity and will concoct a star if no one exists.
This is not too say that there are not ample soldiers available, with pure records and feats, it is too say that the military does create stars for their purposes, as they need them----you know the old story, too keep up the moral at home.
Blessings

[ironglow]

SS;

  Go over to "Round the pot bellied stove" and click into the "combat weapons failure" string . This issue was quite rigorously discussed.
  There seems to be a bit of "scuttlebut" going around about the M16 series of rifles..partly from old, well founded stories  from Vietnam..and partly, I believe from the present state of mind of some folks in opposition to any victory in Iraq.

   Keep in mind as you read those posts that Dee and I can speak fairly authoritatively..Dee having a son in the 82nd Airborne in Baghdad..who uses all these weapons daily.
 I have a grandson (Marine Spec Ops) in Al Anbar ( incl. Ramadi & Fallujah) who is an armorer (civilian=gunsmith) who maintains, repairs and sights in these weapons.
 He is also responsible for their proper function during combat..often working on one system or another (from handguns to machine guns to rocket launchers) while under fire..

  Anyway; check out that string..may set your mind at ease !

      LATE FLASH:  SS, disregard what I said about your visiting the forementioned site..I see you have been there.. but the string is there for anyone else to read it though...

[SHOOTALL]

For those in the know what do you think about the 6.8 rem ?
And no i don't expect to change while engaged in a war !
It looked like a good compromise to the 308/223 debate

[ironglow]

  Info is a bit sketchy on The 6.8 Rem, since they are not in the field, in use..in great numbers. Looks somewhat like the 7.62X39 except somewhat lighter (115 vs 125 gr), somewhat faster (2400 vs 2325 fps) with a slightly smaller diameter.

   Although it may have a little bit more punch at close range than the .223 and thus prove better than the .223 for house-to-house and room-to-room against a terrorist not wearing body armor.

     Uundoubtedly it won't be as good at longer distances due to the extra 6-700 fps of the .223, and likely It will not likely penetrate an armored vest as well as the .223..

   I do however think it brings stature to the M16 series, in that they are obviously using the same, proven, basic rifle..

   Time and use will tell !

[SHOOTALL]

i would think the heavier bullet would surpass the lighter bullet at distance since the faster you start a bullet the faster it slows down ,and weight will help it carry farther with retained energy  that was one of the reasons to switch to a heavier 223 bullet was it not / down range performance ?
also i have heard it said that the 6.8 is close in performance to the 270 Peterson of M-1 fame !
As far as body Armour , not sure but the old 2 to the chest and one to the head like we see on all the old TV shows should cure that if its a problem !