Red-hawk accuracy

[Whopper Stopper]

I have been hammering away for awhile now with my 4" 44 mag. Red-hawk. Due to work right now time is an issue, but I try to have a couple of hours each week for shooting. I have sent about 200 rounds into targets at the gun club and I very much enjoy shooting it. My question to you people is with my set up what kind of accuracy would you expect? I am shooting off hand at 15 - 25 yards. This is my first revolver and I still cannot believe the appetite this billy goat has. Also is there one front sight that is perhaps better then another? The one that I have on it ( the original) has a red insert in it. I notice standing in the bright light that I can't distinguish it is even there. I just guess as far as how much front sight to use but thought some one may have an answer. Anyway as always I appreciate any tips or comments!

                      WS

[MePlat]

You should be going for a goal of 11.46 minute of angle accuracy at what ever distance you are shooting when shooting offhand.  Starting out most won't get near that degree of accuracy but that would be the goal.  One may get a shot out at times but most shots will be within that degree of accuracy to be a good shot.  We all have bad days though.
What types of groups are you shooting anyway?  What loads?  Full power,  pip squeak,  mid-range?  I'm speaking of relatively full power loads though.

[Whopper Stopper]

I am not shooting anything to wild. I am using 240 grain Sierra bullets and 16.5 grains of AA # 7. At this point my 15 yard groups are about 6 inches, my 25 yard groups are much worse but I am still fighting using open sights. All my other guns are topped with glass.

                    WS

[MePlat]

You are doing something terribly wrong to shoot groups that big.  Even most beginners should shoot better than that.  What kind of offhand groups are you shooting with a scope gun offhand?

Lets try to work you through this problem.   Tell me what you are doing and we will work this out.
1.  How do you aim?
2.  What are you thinking about as you are operating the trigger?
3.  How big is your holding area?
4.  What are you looking at while aiming?
5.  Are you flinching?
6.  Do you have a SHOOTING COACH this is a known good shot working with you?

[Redhawk1]

Yes them groups are way off.  Sounds like you may be anticipating the recoil and pushing the revolver all over to compensate for the recoil. You should start out with some 44 Special loads and get use to the gun and work your way up to the Magnum loads. Also use a handgun rest to shoot, that way you know the point of aim is always the same and your hold is always the same.

Your sight picture should look like this.

   
                 ()
   _____II__II__II_____

[OLDHandgunner]

I agree mostly with Redhawk1. This is not the caliber that I would start someone out with or shooting off hand for groups. If you don't have a 22 or 38 gun to practice with, use 44 Spl. loads. Most people don't just pick up a handgun and starting shooting 1  1/2" groups at 25 yards. It takes alot of practice ( thats why 22's are the best for starters ). I've been shooting handguns for 40 yrs now and I still have to shoot alot to stay a good handgun shooter.
       PRACTICE  PRACTICE   PRATICE   

[MePlat]

It is not about who agrees with who.  Few people agree with me on anything because I am not main stream Benchrest Barney when it comes to shooting handguns.
I rarely shoot from a rest except only occasionally.  There are basic fundamentals to shooting a handgun and there is no other way around it.
Shooting from a rest is not a way to practice for field positions in hunting.  I have never seen a benchrest in the woods or the game fields but is is possible for some herculean shooter to tote one on his back but deploying it in a quick and efficient manner in time for a shot at game at close distances would be unlikely.
Whopperstopper needs help.  I am willing to do it so he can at least hit something while shooting offhand or even less than rock steady positions.  If he is not willing to avail himself of my help I sure am not going to loose any sleep over it.
 One thing I will agree on and that is if he overloaded himself by buying a caliber he is afraid of than he needs much work and maybe someone at the range he frequents needs to help him more than us.
I just hope he chooses wisely the person he selects and doesn't choose someone that has the same problems as himself.  They  may both fall in the ditch if he does.

[**oneshot**]

http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCrackShot.htm

[Whopper Stopper]

First off thank you all for responding, and the web link. Let me wade into this and see if I can get some kind of semblance flowing. I do appreciate your time Meplat, and let me answer your questions. When I am aiming I am lining up the bottom of the plastic insert with the back sight. I then try to put the target just on top of the front sight, like Redhawk1 is showing. When I am shooting I am thinking about hitting the dang target. I don't understand holding area ? When I am shooting I am giving my full attention to the middle of the bull and trying to follow through with my shots as in shooting a bow. I don't feel like I am flinching but the trigger pull is tougher then pulling a hay rack. I do not have a shooting coach and frankly I don't even know anyone else shooting a revolver. My hours make it so 99% of the time I am at the range alone. Redhawk1 makes a very valid point about shooting off the bench. I should try it a few times and just see where my gun is hitting. I also bought some 44 specials today to go along with my shooting. Now when I said this was my first revolver I was serious. I have never shot a pistol off hand before scoped or un-scoped, in any caliber. I have a custom XP 100 in 6.5X 284 that I can cover three shots with a dime at 400 yards. I can't believe I am flinching too bad. Also the XP has a 6 oz. trigger and all my rifles have custom triggers in the 2-4 pound range. This Red-Hawk makes me thirsty squeezing the life out of it. I also have never utilized the double action part of it at the range but I am thinking maybe I could time my shots better if I got use to using it that way. Anyhow I think I put all the beans on the table and I will listen to whatever you guys put out for me. One comment ........Meplat you always come of very confrontational. I am not sure why but I just want you to know I respect your advice and concerns, as I do many of the main players on this board. I hope this puts you at ease, life it too short!

               WS

[Redhawk1]

MePlat, you need to read my post again. The reason I suggest shooting from a bench and gun rest is to make sure it is not the gun. And consistency will show that. It is not a matter of who he listens to, it is not a competition.

I don't shot my handguns from a bench rest either, but if I am sighting in a gun and want to make sure it is shooting correctly I use a bench and a rest.

I do a lot of off hand shooting with my handguns. I practice field condition all the time, but if he is having a problem, to keep shooting is not going to solve it, until the reason is found.

So don't get all worked up if someone else tries to help.

I don't have the same problem as he does, just so you don't make the analysis.

[Redhawk1]

Whopper Stopper, I guess we posted about the same time. 

The 44 Specials should help, also let someone else shoot your Redhawk and see if they are having the same problem.

The main reason I suggest a bench rest and rest is, you have a good gun support and you can hold the gun consistently the same way. Once you get it shooting good, you can then move on to shooting off hand or even off shooting sticks to aid in steadying your gun. Good luck and if you need help, let us know.

[MePlat]

"MePlat, you need to read my post again. The reason I suggest shooting from a bench and gun rest is to make sure it is not the gun"

 agree but do you want to put a bet on its the gun?

See here a shooter that can "cover three shots with a dime at 400 yards".  Off the bench.  Can I do that probably not.  I am not a perfecter of the bench shooting technique even with my scoped singleshots.

He said in his post he is having trouble with using iron sights.  " I am still fighting using open sights".  I believe he is a good shooter just not doing what he understands.

He does not understand holding area.  "I don't understand holding area"  I'll bet that is his problem mostly right there.  He is seeing his movement and he is grabbing the trigger as the sights swing past center bull and he is ruining all he's holding for.  You will see this in many shooters that are use to keeping the benchrest seat warm with their bottoms.  Hard to break habit.

Its easy for him to tell if he is jerking the trigger by playing the ball and dummy routine.

I see movement too when I am shooting offhand at 100 yards.  i don't know anyone that can hold perfectly still offhand.  I can't.  But i accept it.

[Whopper Stopper]

Meplat, please explain holding area and also what is ball and dummy. Your ball, I am the dummy!

[Bitterroot Bob]

Howdy,
A short revolver is hard to shoot well. I use a rest whenever possible, whether that means using a reclining "Creedmoor" style, or grasping a tree trunk and firing across my forearm, or whatever. Further, I have tried the Weaver, isoceles, and traditional one-handed off-hand stances and grips. For me, one-handed is best. I found that my weak hand was influencing the shot and by using only one hand to shoot, I simplified things immensly. Try different shooting stances and see what works best for you.
I hate sights with colored inserts. The darker and less reflective the better. All you want is a dark silhouette in the rear notch. And, focus on that front sight. The eye can only focus on one thing at a time. The front sight should be clear, the rear sight will be slightly fuzzy, and the target will be really fuzzy. Focus on that front sight!
I concur with the other guys about practicing with .44 Specials. Clean the copper fouling from the bore, and your gun will be slow to collect lead when shooting cast bullets.
Unless you have a huge stockpile of jacketed bullets, I would recommend that you give serious thought to a 245-grain Keith SWC in your magnum cases. The SWC has generous bearing surface, and can be ordered to closely fit the groove diameter of your revolver. My best shots have always come with lead.
Ruger uses springs that are more suited to industrial applications than for fine trigger work. Order a set of target springs from Trapper or Wolfe and get that trigger down to 3 pounds. I have a pair of EMF Colt-clones with 1-1/2 pound triggers and it is a beautiful thing to touch one off.
The Redhawk is a great revolver and you should be able to do better than you are doing.

Good luck,
Bitterroot

[MePlat]

In shooting offhand no one can hold perfectly still.   there is always movement.  It will vary everyday to some degree.  somedays you will hold in a tighter area than others.  You have to accept that area.  As you practice it will become smaller due to practice and the learning to hold more still as time goes on.  You keep the sight alignment and operate the trigger till the gun fires.  the shot will be within your ability to hold and the accuracy level of the gun and cartridge. you repeat this again and again till you build a group.  what some do is see that movement area and their mind goes crazy and the mind says " I can't hit anything with all this movement."  Then they want to time the swing of the sights so they will try to force the gun to fire as the sights swing past center bull and they shoot like poo poo.
You just put the gun up,  align the sights, load the trigger without moving the sight alignment all the while letting the gun play around.  Bam the gun goes off.  the shot will be in there within YOUR ABILITY to hold at this time of your offhand experience.  As you get more shooting under your belt your movement area will get smaller and smaller but it will always be there to some degree.  LIVE WITH IT.  You have too.

Ball and dummy.  Load some empties and some live ammo and close your eyes spin the cylinder shut your cylinder with out looking and fire away and they your flinch if you have one will be readily noticied.

Also if you can shoot well you can shoot well. short or long barrel.  If you can't you can't.

[MePlat]

I just went to the truck ad retrieved 3 targets i shot week before last at 100 yards offhand.  The groups ran from 10 inches down to 63/4 inches.  some I shot the week before that  were in between those group wise with with an ocassional shot opening the group up to 12 inches.
I don't shoot much now and it shows as I have some bad days thrown in now and then.
this was with a 4 5/8 h inch Blackhawk 45 colt with a long creepy trigger pull and iron sights.  Now if I would have had a 10 inch barrel i could have done better since I would have been 5 3/8th inches closer to the target.

[Lloyd Smale]

best advice i can give you is going to cost your more money. Not to may people can pick up a big centerfire handgun and shot it effectively. Your best bet is to go and buy yourself a good .22 like a single six and about 10 bricks of ammo and put the 44 away until all 10 bricks are shot up. Dont waste them blasting beer cans. Use them to master your trigger control. Id about be after that your groups will at least be shrunk in half.

[S.B.]

If your shots are grouping at all try using this correction chart:



and if this is your first magnum, remember to keep shooting and give yourself time to get used to the gun?

[Redhawk1]

Great advice Lloyd.

[Whopper Stopper]

Lots of advice for me to digest. Thank you all for the time you gave me, looks like I have some work to do.

                WS

[Redhawk1]

Whopper Stopper, just don't get to frustrated, it will come around for you. I have been shooting and hunting with handguns for about 25 years now, and I still practice a lot to keep proficient.

[Glanceblamm]

Agreed with Bitterroot Bob on aligning the short plane of the sights with the longer range of the target.
Go ahead and let your target Blurr while keeping your sights in sharp focus... this might sound strange but even really small objects will have a large center when doing this.
You might also try to dry fire on a daily basis if possible. This can even be done indoors at night and you will be aligning the sights on a really small object and pressuring up the trigger just till it breaks, with no more movement to the rear.

If you can do this just six times a day it can make a big difference. When you get to the range...(you guessed it) fire your first six shots at the target with your gun unloaded.
By the time you get some live ammo in and start shooting, you will easily be able to identifiy whether you are pushing, pulling, flinching, or looking over the top of the gun for a hit as soon as firing.

[S.B.]

Don't forget to follow through after the shot breaks? Hold steady for another second or so.

[S.B.]

You should be going for a goal of 11.46 minute of angle accuracy at what ever distance you are shooting when shooting offhand.  Starting out most won't get near that degree of accuracy but that would be the goal.  One may get a shot out at times but most shots will be within that degree of accuracy to be a good shot.  We all have bad days though.
What types of groups are you shooting anyway?  What loads?  Full power,  pip squeak,  mid-range?  I'm speaking of relatively full power loads though.

Where did you get the 11.46 minute of angle accuracy from?
That's just under 11.5" @ 100 yards and 45.84" @ 25 uards? Are you kidding? By your statement, most shooters can't shoot closer than about a 4' circle@ 25 yards. Am I missing something here?

[MePlat]

S.B. :  Your missing your math.  11.46 MOA is 12.000912 inches.
A moa ia rounded 1.0472 inches.
At 25 yards it is one forth as much. which is 3.000228 inches.  Not four times as much.

25 yds x 36" = 900"
900" x 2 = 1800"
1800" x 3.14159 = 5654.862"
5654.862" / 21600 = .2617991"
3" / .2617991" = 11.459168 moa or 11.46 moa rounded.

If you want to check this out get a copy of the Machinist Handbook and check it out.
Better still figure it for 100 yards and you will see that one moa is 1.0471966 inches rounded to 1.0472".

May I help you with anything else?

[Redhawk1]

All that Math takes the fun out of shooting. 

Seriously though, it does not have to be so complicated with all that math. I shoot my guns at different ranges and I know where my bullets hit. We are talking handgun hunting here not long distance shooting.

[MePlat]

Redhawk1:  That was figured for 25 yards.  I sure wouldn't consider that long range right?

[Redhawk1]

 My whole point here was, all that math is really not necessary. Sure it is good to know what MOA is, but there is a short answer.
1 inch at 100 yards. 

[S.B.]

S.B. :  Your missing your math.  11.46 MOA is 12.000912 inches.
A moa ia rounded 1.0472 inches.
At 25 yards it is one forth as much. which is 3.000228 inches.  Not four times as much.

25 yds x 36" = 900"
900" x 2 = 1800"
1800" x 3.14159 = 5654.862"
5654.862" / 21600 = .2617991"
3" / .2617991" = 11.459168 moa or 11.46 moa rounded.

If you want to check this out get a copy of the Machinist Handbook and check it out.
Better still figure it for 100 yards and you will see that one moa is 1.0471966 inches rounded to 1.0472".

May I help you with anything else?

I see now, I was thinking minute of angle clicks in a scope and the number of clicks it would take tor correction.

[banen]

Hey Whomper,
Sorry I didn't see your post until now.  If you are feeling like your trigger pull is a little heavy, you might try is replacing the springs on your Redhawk.  I have a 5.5" and replaced the springs with a kit I ordered from Brownells.  It is an easy do it 20 minute youselfer and only cost a few bucks ( I think it might be like $12).  A lot of guys go nuts with stoning and all kinds of stuff, but I found that the simple spring replacement was good enough for me.