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Author Topic: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires  (Read 3420 times)

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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2007, 07:13:12 AM »
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to try a factory round ?
Just an idea !
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Offline skb2706

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2007, 08:26:24 AM »
I offered one of those up earlier as well..................
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2007, 08:58:08 AM »
Sorry didn't mean to steal your thunder !
I hate to see guns shipped , done it 5 times and only once did a damaged gun or long wait not or both  result !
For the record strum Ruger did a good job , Winchester and Browning both were problems ! and yes you can call it sour grapes , if they don't want them they should do a better job ! and yes it is the same place for both !
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Offline Who Me?

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2007, 09:55:47 AM »
Quote from: SHOOTALL on May 16, 2007, 07:13:12 AM
Wouldn't it be more cost effective to try a factory round ?
Just an idea !

It would indeed!  :) Thanks for the offer.   I already tried that, along with checking headspace per Mike B***m's method.  Here's my post from May 7,  as you can see, I have exhausted all suggestions.

 
Okay, range update:
I took the 7-30 Waters to the range Sunday morning along with a box of Federal factory ammo.  Out of the first 10 round sleeve, I managed to get 5  that fired.  Out of the next 10 rounds, I got 2 that fired.  Total fired, 7 out of 20 with factory ammo.  I went to the M*** B**** website and read his articles on headspace and misfires.  I took the barrel off the frame and dropped in a factory round and the head of the case was flush with the breech end of the barrel.  I checked one of my rounds that had not been fire-formed yet.  This was a 30-30 case that was resized in the 7-30 Waters die and loaded with a Remington Core-lock 140 gr bullet with the bullet seated to the cannelure and the case head on this round was flush with the breech end of the barrel.  I then checked one of my reloads that had been fireformed and reloaded using the fireformed case.  The case head on this round was flush with the breech end of the barrel also.  Per M*** B****  this is the way it should be.  Next, I checked for headspace per M*** B**** 's article.  I put the barrel back on the frame, inserted a factory round in the chamber and closed the action with a feeler gauge between the case head and the breech.  I was able to close the action on .001", .002", .003" and 004".  It would not close on .005"  Per M*** B**** , the tolerance is .001" to .006" and anything more would be out of specs.   So, with the ammo fitting correctly and the headspace within tolerance,

I didn't really want to send it in either, but after all the tests I've run and after talking to the techs at Thompson / Center this morning and explaining all the things I'd checked, they agreed that the headspace was within tolerance and they wanted me to send in both of my barrels and the frame to check this  out. 

Thank you to everyone for all of your suggestions.  This will be interesting to find out what the cause is.
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Offline skarke

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2007, 11:07:39 AM »
Make triple sure you send that barrel back with the frame.  Critical for them to diagnose the problem, and keep us posted.

Dan
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Offline skarke

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2007, 11:12:56 AM »
Sorry, I'll read the whole post next time :-)
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Offline SHOOTALL

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2007, 03:00:43 AM »
me to !
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2007, 07:59:10 AM »
Quote from: skarke on May 16, 2007, 11:07:39 AM
Make triple sure you send that barrel back with the frame.  Critical for them to diagnose the problem, and keep us posted.

Dan

Will do!  I'm sending the frame, the .204 barrel and the 7-30 barrel per T/C's instructions.   ;)
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #38 on: June 04, 2007, 09:21:34 AM »
I shipped the frame and the two barrels (7-30 Waters and .204 Ruger) back to T/C.  The parts arrived at T/C last Thursday per UPS tracking, so I should hear something from them before too long.
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #39 on: June 05, 2007, 05:13:31 AM »
I received a postcard from Thompson/Center yesterday and they have received my frame and two barrels.  Waiting to hear more from them...

The mystery continues!   :o   :)
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #40 on: June 08, 2007, 09:15:47 AM »
 ;D
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2007, 09:30:47 AM »
H'mm... managed to delete my text somehow...  Here goes again:

Yesterday (Thursday) the Fed Ex man returned my G2 frame and two barrels from T/C Repair.  Great service from T/C !   They received the parts last Thursday, fixed the problem and I got everything back this Thursday!!  According to the packing slip, they replaced the hammer spring, the trigger spring and the overtravel screw and then test fired it with each barrel.  I have to mount the scopes on the barrels tonight and take them to the range in the morning to test-fire them.  Hopefully that cured the problem.  I'll report back with the results  ;D
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Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #42 on: June 10, 2007, 12:54:22 AM »
I dont claim to be a loading expert and dont have the experience the Mike Bellm has with conterdors but have been shooting 3030 and 7 waters contenders for over 20 years and about 19 of those years have been not only neck sizing for those two rounds but every bottle neck round ive shot in one. I can guarantee you one thing if im in the hunting woods with a contendor its going to have a round that is once fired and neck sized. Ive just fought to many conterder missfires using any other reloading practice. I only use brass that is once fired in my chamber and then neck sized for hunting loads. A guy needs to full lenght size and start over after about 3 or 4 firings or closing will become a problem. Ive have had exactly 0 missfires using this technique and have probally fired in the vacintiy of 20000 plus rounds out of contendors. If you want guranteed misfires with a 7 waters set your full length dies just as the die manufacture recomends and they use cci primers. Ill bet you dont get 20 rounds off without a missfire. I guess i look at it like this you can headspace a 223 or the case shoulder and it works fine why could you not do the same on a 3030. The only time i should work is if your pushing loads way beyond the capabliity of a contender frame and your getting excessive stretching. Bottom line is that most bench rest competitors neck size. It not only gives longer brass life but better accuracy. I has proven a 100 percent reliable in my contenders and certainly isnt harming the gun in anyway. So i find it hard to see a downside of any kind to continue doing it.
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #43 on: June 10, 2007, 02:02:04 AM »
"According to the packing slip, they replaced the hammer spring, the trigger spring and the overtravel screw and then test fired it with each barrel."

Was that your 44 pound after market spring that they "replaced?"
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Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #44 on: June 10, 2007, 05:48:17 AM »
I pretty much agree with what Lloyd was saying. Contenders are a different breed for reloading especially if you are looking for the best accuracy. I've been shooting Contenders for years and have never had a misfire from reloads. The only problem I have ever had is when buying a new or used barrel is to check to make sure that the locking bolts are not oversized. This will cause it to misfire. I've shot thousands off rounds through my barrels with no problems as long as you size your brass to fit that chamber. I use a seperate RCBS sizing die for every contender caliber, even if I have another gun in that caliber it has its own sizing die. These are a few bottle neck type calibers I load for 22 Hornet, 222, 223, 7x30 Waters, 30-30, 30-30 AI, 30 Herrett. And I use all Federal primers.
My 7-30 Waters is one of the most accurate barrels I have. It is a 14" Hunter. I use 30-30 formed brass. Making sure they only gets used in that barrel. Hopefulley T/C gets  your problems solved so that you can enjoy shooting this great caliber.
GOOD LUCK
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #45 on: June 12, 2007, 11:39:48 AM »
NEWS FLASH !!  IT'S FIXED !!!  [

 This should be the last chapter of this Saga.  Thompson Center received my frame and two barrels on Thursday, May 31, they fixed the frame and test fired both barrels and sent everything back to me.  I received it one week later on Thursday, June7.  I went to the range last Saturday (June 9) and test fired it at the 100 yard line.  I installed the .204 Ruger barrel first and fired my handloads.  All rounds fired with no mis-fires.  Next I installed the 7-30 Waters barrel and fired the Federal Premium factory ammo that I had, which is loaded with Sierra 120 gr. Boat-Tail Flat Point bullets. I fired 20 rounds including 10 rounds that had previously mis-fired.  All of these fired with no problems.  Next I fired my handloads that had not yet been fire-formed.   These had been loaded with Remington 140 gr. PSP bullets and 33.0gr. of W-W 760.  I fired about 40 rounds of these, including the rounds that had mis-fired previously. All of these fired with no failures.  I fired about another 20 rounds of various loads using cases that had been fire-formed and loaded with 100 gr. hollow points and 140 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips.  These also fired with no failures.  Before sending the frame to T/C, I was lucky to get 25% of the rounds to fire.  Now, after firing 100 rounds or so, I have no misfires!   ;D


So,
skb2706  how would you like that crow prepared?  Baked Whole or Stir-Fried.  Apparently after 35 years of handloading, I can put together a round or two.  :D

Oh, here's your quote in case you forgot:

Posted by: skb2706  

If after you send it to TC and they tell you they have found no problem....will you be convinced that it is a case/headspace/sizing problem and not a gun problem.


Thank you to everyone who supplied constructive suggestions!  I hope some of the many people that read this post were able to benefit from it.  Thanks to GBO and the moderator for allowing me to follow through with this!

Here's two of my best targets:



[/img]


Regards,
Wayne
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Wayne

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2007, 11:41:41 AM »
.
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2007, 11:45:25 AM »
once more...

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Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #48 on: June 13, 2007, 02:14:27 AM »
About time, heh!! Now you can get down and enjoy that T/C. But one word of caution when buying more barrels. Check them to see if they my have this same misfire problem. I have 1 older T/C frame that sometimes requires undersized locking bolts on some barrels. Now when I get a new barrel I check to make sure that it will fire with my frames. Having to get undersized locking bolts does not affect the accuracy & T/C used to send them to me when I would call to get one. Not sure about now. ( New ownership )
WARNING!! Contenders are addictive. The more you buy the more you want. Can't never have too many barrels. I have a couple that I haven't even shot yet. Couldn't pass them up, had to buy them.

                                                           ;D ;D ;D
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Offline skarke

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2007, 04:22:29 PM »
Oldhandgunner is right, Contenders are addicitive!  I spend way too much time looking for that next "fun" chamber to try.  By the time I get dies, I'm out a couple of hundred smackers and enjoying a nice night on the couch.

The good thing is that I can generally sell 'em for what I bought 'em for.

One last note on the importance of proper headspacing, particularly at the shoulder.  I was reloading for my 7mm 08 last week, and my resizing die came unscrewed a little from the press, and I failed to notice it.

When I got to the range, the headspace was basically "0" on about 6 rounds.  bad VERTICAL STRINGING, just as I expected.  Your results may vary, but proper headspace in a break open gun is critical!!!!!

JMHO, have a nice day.
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Offline ARCHER

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2007, 04:44:42 AM »
OLDHandgunner, could you tell me what are undersized locking bolts. How are they different from regular locking bolts?
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Offline OLDHandgunner

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2007, 03:36:24 PM »
ARCHER, they are locking bolts that are a fraction smaller so they will let the barrel close fully. This should eliminate misfires.
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Offline chazgin

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2007, 05:27:33 PM »
I have read all the posts and I am glad your Contender is shooting again. My experience with "old style" Contenders has been that after awhile the hammer spring needs to be replaced. And yes I have Mike (censored word) reloading techniques, tools, and a 7-30 Waters converted to 7 X 444 B (which I love). My contender started acting up with an SSK 45/70 barrel. Would not reliably ignite Large Rifle primers. I replaced the hammer spring and everything returned to normal. If you look at Mike (censored word) article about hammer extensions you'll see references to extension weight and reliable ignition. This was my first clue that the old style Contenders had a spring issue. I bet that the trigger spring and the screw replacement were unnecessary replacements but so what, they did a belt and suspenders fix and should be commended for that.
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2007, 03:37:11 AM »
Quote from: alsaqr on June 10, 2007, 02:02:04 AM
"According to the packing slip, they replaced the hammer spring, the trigger spring and the overtravel screw and then test fired it with each barrel."

Was that your 44 pound after market spring that they "replaced?"

Nope, I removed the after-market 44 pound spring and re-installed the factory hammer spring before I shipped it to T/C.
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Wayne

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2007, 03:40:51 AM »
Quote from: chazgin on June 25, 2007, 05:27:33 PM
I bet that the trigger spring and the screw replacement were unnecessary replacements but so what, they did a belt and suspenders fix and should be commended for that.

chazgin

You are correct Sir!  They should be commended.  I shipped the frame and two barrels to them, which they received on a Thursday, and on the following Thursday I had my frame and barrels back.  That's amazing turn-around time! 
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Offline tmar04

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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #55 on: June 27, 2007, 03:11:16 PM »
what did TC Arms charge for the work on your gun? or was it warranty?  thanks.
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Re: 7-30 Waters Mis-fires
« Reply #56 on: June 28, 2007, 02:41:49 AM »
Quote from: tmar04 on June 27, 2007, 03:11:16 PM
what did TC Arms charge for the work on your gun? or was it warranty?  thanks.

The work was covered by warranty.  The only cost to me was to ship the barrels and frame to T/C.  I think the cost was about $20 or $25 for shipping two boxes.  I found out that if I would have shipped the frame and barrels in the same box, UPS and Fed Ex wanted to charge me $85 to $95.  By shipping the barrels in one box and the frame in another, it was gun parts.  By shipping the frame and barrels in the same box, it was a gun.  How stupid is this bureaucracy??  :-\  ::)
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Wayne

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